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[Zjarcal]

Seeing how virtually every regular of the thread has decided to use the loggy sig I made (Yay! Though to be honest I'm not a big fan of how it came out), I bring in a few more, if only for variety's sake:



I also made a fuzzy border version of this one as an experiment to see how it looks... meh.





And here's a better version of the original banner.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 06 octobre 2010 - 07:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hey folks.
Monica's post in the other Loghain thread (2nd, 3rd of 4rth, don't know what to call it), has inspired me to attempt to illustrate the battle of Ostagar, how it was meant to be and how it ended up being.

This is what Monica posted:

Monica21 wrote...

Okay, this is crude, but I made a picture of what I think was happening at Ostagar:




Loghain's forces would have had to have been farther up the valley to
be in any position to flank, in addition to being in cover so the
darkspawn don't see them. From what we see of Ostagar both when we
arrive and during the battle, we see lots of trees. Trees hide vision.

When you're crossing the bridge, you see this: 




Darkspawn are still entering the valley. Loghain is probably in
position to see the incoming darkspawn but too far to see the
battlefield.

Loghain knows the numbers of the king's forces, so
he can make a judgment  based on his position to be able to see the
entering darkspawn. He may have even risked being sandwiched if the
darkspawn had still been entering the valley. Combine that with the late
beacon, and you have a very solid reason for retreat.

So what I'll attempt to do is visualise it. Credit goes to Monica for the inspiration

I've started a game only to get to Ostagar (too bad I can't share screenies), and from what I have seen, in addition to screenshots from elsewhere, this is how I picture it:



Now naturally this is rough, I don't know the exact terrain. But it's essentially a valley and that's the main entrance into Ferelden proper from the Kocari Wilds, which is where the darkspawn are coming from. The Darkspawn are coming from the South, from the Wilds. Cailan's forces are in the passage. Loghain's forces are hiding behind trees, where they are supposed to wait for the darskpawn to go into the valley. That circle with an orange dot that looks like a ****** is the Tower of Ishal and the beacon.

Now this is how the battle should have looked like in theory and in Loghain's mind.



The darkspawn would be drawn into the narrow pass, where their numbers would effectively be neutralised. Cailan's forces would hold the line and signal the beacon when all the darkspawn are in the valley. Once the beacon is lit, Loghain would flank them.



The darkspawn would thus be trapped in the valley between two armies.
Perfect.

However, this is not what happened in practise and I'll argue that what did happen was not favorable for such a plan.

This is how I interpret how the battle looked like in reality.



The straight red darkspawn line above is supposed to represent the straight seemingly unending line of torches coming from the woods that is seen in Monica's screenie above. This essentially confirms what David Gaider said. The darkspawn were much more numerous than expected. And as Mary Kirby said, though Loghain's vision of the battlefield was far from complete, he can still notice that.

The cross on the beacon symbolises the darkspawn attack there that most probably delayed the signal.
The cracking on Cailan's forces is supposed to represent the core army cracking under pressure.
While Loghain could not have precisely known that Cailan's army is on the verge of breaking down, his sense of timing regarding the beacon (shared by Duncan) and how it took too long to light can lead him to expect that the core army was probably breaking down. true enough, Duncan and Cailan die only a few minutes after the beacon was lit.

So had Loghain charged, this is probably what would have happened, or was a very strong possibility:



Loghain would have been sandwiched between the darkspawn. And Cailan's forces breaking down and in no shape to break through would have meant that Loghain was essentially isolated in a sea of darkspawn.

As such, the wisest course of action was, imo, retreat.

Now this is NOT in any way, shape or form, an attempt by me to say that the battle would have been lost as a fact. I can't know that. This is me rather attempting to understand how the battle transpired, taking an outside view of the battlefield. And how I believe it would have transpired had Loghain charged. Or at the very least, this was a strong possibility considering that the darkspawn were more numerous and that their lines extended well within the forest and those two are facts.  And while Loghain does not share my outside view of the battle, he can still see that the darkspawn are more numerous and he can believe that Cailan's army was breaking down due to the beacon being lit late.   

Feel free to correct me if I understood something wrong.

And thanks again to Monica! 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 octobre 2010 - 01:16 .

[Monica21]

Much better than I explained it. Thanks, KoP. I like the happy face for the Darkspawn and angry face for Loghain. Hehe.

[Zjarcal]

Wow, that's awesome KoP. The happy and angry faces (plus the ****** reference) made it all even better!



And I totally agree with what you've said. Now I can't wait for the rebuttals and criticisms of your explanation to begin, because you know they're coming...

[KnightofPhoenix]

I expect them to put in some effort in it, I didn't waste all this time for anything less!

Oh and very nice banners btw Zjarcal

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh and very nice banners btw Zjarcal

They will be ignored in light of your awesome post...

Modifié par Zjarcal, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:40 .

[Elhanan]

You could include the 'unplanned retreat' in a large arrow; yellow is available.... j/k

Modifié par Elhanan, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Wulfram]

For what it's worth, this is the map on the table at the war council

[Morwen Eledhwen]

I'm cracking myself up with the image of happy Darkspawn skipping down the forest path into a very pissed-off Loghain (who probably can't decide if he's more annoyed at the Darkspawn for slaughtering his troops with such glee or with Cailan for leading him into this glorious mess).

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 06 octobre 2010 - 04:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

For what it's worth, this is the map on the table at the war council

Yea, similar to what I drew. Except I mixed north and south like an idiot.

[CalJones]

Great posts after a horrible journey home from school (that sounds a bit odd - I didn't get any younger, I'm now teaching PE).

Very plausible explanation and the faces definitely made me laugh. The diagram looks right - it's  just the map's upside down. So it's fine.

Zjarcal - more goodness from you. I've borrowed the top one, for variety. Cheers.

Modifié par CalJones, 06 octobre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Zjarcal]

@Cal:



Yay! Glad you liked them.



By the way, is it wrong that I hadn't even realized that there was a map at the war council?

[CalJones]

Heh, it's the one Cailan and Loghain look over in the cutscene. Kind of obvious!

[Zjarcal]

You'd think that in four playthroughs I'd actually paid attention to that. The problem is that I'm so focused on what an idiot Cailan is at that point that my mind isn't processing things correctly.

[phaonica]

Nice job Zjarcal, KoP, and Monica. And yeah, the smileys in those illustrations are full of win, KoP. It's times like these that I wish we didn't hijack a thread and had access to put awesome stuff like that on our front page.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

Nice job Zjarcal, KoP, and Monica. And yeah, the smileys in those illustrations are full of win, KoP. It's times like these that I wish we didn't hijack a thread and had access to put awesome stuff like that on our front page.

I posted a blog about it, for future references.

[Sarah1281]

@Zjarcal: You know, all these awesome banners you keep making is really making me wish I had some room left in my signature.

[Zjarcal]

Wow phaonica, I almost made a siggy exactly like the one you're using last night! Same picture (from his cameo in Awakening) and caption (although I wasn't going to include the Gwaren crest).



Looks like it's a good thing I didn't bother making it!

[Zjarcal]

@Sarah:



Thanks!!



You could do as I do (and as I did for KoP) and make them into a gif so that you'd have a rotation of banners.

[phaonica]

Zjarcal wrote...

Wow phaonica, I almost made a siggy exactly like the one you're using last night! Same picture (from his cameo in Awakening) and caption (although I wasn't going to include the Gwaren crest).

Looks like it's a good thing I didn't bother making it!

You probably would have done a better job than me at it. I just threw it together because I'd been wanting one like it.

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

But the idiot is still the King, which Duncan understands. Loghain decides to remove him for whatever reason, thus it is regicide.

King falling in battle = So not regicide

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

King falling in battle = So not regicide

King left to fall in battle = regicide.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

King falling in battle = So not regicide

King left to fall in battle = regicide.

No, it's not. Regicide is the deliberate killing of a king.
Retreating from what you percieve to be a lost battle does not constitue a regicide, unless you deliberately retreated to have the king die.

In-game, you can think that Loghain deliberately retreated to have the king die. But out-game, this is false. Loghain did not retreat to deliberately kill the king.

[Persephone]

Hrodric wrote...

A 148 pages for Loghain... wow.

All this for a man that:
1. hired an apostate to poison the Arl of Redcliff--a noble of high standing
2. had the Circle of Magi nearly destroyed by abominations and demons
3. conspired to eliminate the Templar order
4. sold his own countrymen as slaves to the Tevinter Imperium in order to fund his coup d'etat
5. imprisoned the Queen of Ferelden against her wishes
6. illegally usurped the Throne as he tried to get other races to recognize him as king
7. set up the King of Ferelden and the Gray Wardens into an ambush by darkspawn that the king would not survive
8. had others kill and torture any surviving Gray Wardens during a Blight

and he did all this because "he loved his country?" No, he did it because he feared Orlais more than the Blight due to his massive fixation over his own navel.

King Cailan was more the "patriot" by making the true "hard choice" of recognizing (maybe he was just lucky) that the Blight is a far graver threat than Orleasian Gray Wardens--who were coming to help fight the very darkspawn that had been only attacking Fereldans!

The catharsis I got out of killing Rendon Howe was not something I would deprive my brother-in-arms and rightful King of Ferelden: I let Alistair give Loghain a death that the treacherous, murdering, slavering, failed-farmer-boy didn't deserve.

Regarding the Battle of Ostagar:
No doubt the King and the allies would have won the day--Loghain's forces would have caught the darkspawn from the flank. However, unless the Archdemon had shown itself in that battle, the Blight would not have been stopped at the conclusion of the fight.

1) Couldn't care less.
2) Utterly untrue
3) Huh?
4) Give you that one
5) Not true
6) What?
7) You did hear him tell Cailan not to risk himself on the front lines, RIGHT?
8) What?

Cailan a patriot? The glory hound with crap for brains who betrayed his country to Orlais, whined about there being no Archdemon sightings..

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

King falling in battle = So not regicide

King left to fall in battle = regicide.

Duncan looked up to see the beacon being lit within a minute of Cailan being crushed by an ogre so even if Loghain HAD charged and HAD won at Ostagar Cailan would be dead anyway = so not regicide.