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[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Eamon would probably be seen as a moral and likable character.

Eamon is amoral?  Not likeable I get, but amoral? 
That's a head scratcher . . . .

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin, if you can add maps and diagrams for the battle, that would be great. In fact, I can help you with that if you wish.

Can't really do that on FF.net, but I will be descriptive of the terrain and formations.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Eamon would probably be seen as a moral and likable character.

Eamon is amoral?  Not likeable I get, but amoral? 
That's a head scratcher . . . .

I don't see him as amoral exactly, just not particularly moral. As to why...well, aside from the way he treated Alistair growing up (which I blame for most of his issues) there's also his blatant power grab when a Blight is on. Granted, that comes in handy because Loghain wants us dead and who knows if we'd be able to talk to him long enough to convince him otherwise without this but the civil war during a Blight is, in no way, a moral imperative.

[Costin_Razvan]

Eamon is just as power hungry as Howe is. The difference between the two are their methods, but their goal for personal power is the exact same.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 I don't see him as amoral exactly, just not particularly moral. As to why...well, aside from the way he treated Alistair growing up (which I blame for most of his issues) there's also his blatant power grab when a Blight is on. Granted, that comes in handy because Loghain wants us dead and who knows if we'd be able to talk to him long enough to convince him otherwise without this but the civil war during a Blight is, in no way, a moral imperative.

The civil war started while Eamon was poisoned.  Eamon only acts to stop it.

He's also surprisingly positive about the potential Anora/Alistair match, which doesn't really fit if he was out for power.

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 I don't see him as amoral exactly, just not particularly moral. As to why...well, aside from the way he treated Alistair growing up (which I blame for most of his issues) there's also his blatant power grab when a Blight is on. Granted, that comes in handy because Loghain wants us dead and who knows if we'd be able to talk to him long enough to convince him otherwise without this but the civil war during a Blight is, in no way, a moral imperative.

The civil war started while Eamon was poisoned.  Eamon only acts to stop it.

He's also surprisingly positive about the potential Anora/Alistair match, which doesn't really fit if he was out for power.

Eamon was poisoned when the civil war started, true, but he's pushing things even farther. They just didn't want to take orders from Denerim. Eamon's the one who tried to put an untrained and (unhardened at least) completely unsuitable bastard of a previous king on the throne instead of the perfectly competent queen. Yes, the Landsmeet does end it but that would have been perfectly possible if Eamon had just challenged Loghain's regency and let Anora remain queen. Instead, he wants someone he knows has no clue how to rule and will likely appoint him chancellor. Chancellor to a king that doesn't know what he's doing? A lot of power, especially at first.

You can argue a hardened Alistair has a better idea of how to rule but Eamon is expecting unhardened Alistair. Also, despite Anora and Alistair agreeing to marry and Eamon being fully aware of this, he will still try to get Alistair alone on the throne the minute Loghain is dead. He thinks that having Anora on their side (and the joint ruler idea is really the most plausible way to get Anora on their side as she won't be expected to believe you aren't supporting your own candidate) will put them in the best position but he quickly changes his tune the minute the alliance is no longer 'convenient' and is annoyed about it post-Landsmeet if you go through with it. By that point, though, there is nothing he can do.

[Elhanan]

Eamon is a Noble, but he ain't all bad. I mean, I must carry his shield past him a few dozen times and he never seems to get upset....

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eamon is definitely looking for his interest (and why not?), but I wouldn't say he is unreasonable about it. I think he genuinely wants to stop the civil war first and foremost, if that means he gets more power, why not? But I don't think it's too high on his agenda and he doesn't say anything if you marry Alistair to Anora, become Alistair's chancellor, or kill him all together.

However, the Bannorn looking for leadership in Redcliff is definitely him consolidating his power. And if this trend gets out of hand, there will be another civil war.

EDIT: scratch that, he does start an all out brall in the Landsmeet if Loghain wins via the traditions he was whining about. I guess his life is the highest on the agenda.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 octobre 2010 - 04:16 .

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 I don't see him as amoral exactly, just not particularly moral. As to why...well, aside from the way he treated Alistair growing up (which I blame for most of his issues) there's also his blatant power grab when a Blight is on. Granted, that comes in handy because Loghain wants us dead and who knows if we'd be able to talk to him long enough to convince him otherwise without this but the civil war during a Blight is, in no way, a moral imperative.

The civil war started while Eamon was poisoned.  Eamon only acts to stop it.

He's also surprisingly positive about the potential Anora/Alistair match, which doesn't really fit if he was out for power.

Well, set them up and then talk to him about it at Redcliff.  No, he's not so positive about it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh he does say something about it? I never knew. I never picked that choice as of yet. Weird that he doesn't say anything if Alistair is executed.

[Costin_Razvan]

Well, he knows when to STFU.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Eamon would probably be seen as a moral and likable character.

Eamon is amoral?  Not likeable I get, but amoral? 
That's a head scratcher . . . .

I don't see him as amoral exactly, just not particularly moral. As to why...well, aside from the way he treated Alistair growing up (which I blame for most of his issues) there's also his blatant power grab when a Blight is on. Granted, that comes in handy because Loghain wants us dead and who knows if we'd be able to talk to him long enough to convince him otherwise without this but the civil war during a Blight is, in no way, a moral imperative.

I don't particularly LIKE what happened to Alistair growing up, but I don't see what Eamon did as amoral.  This was the bastard child of a king, and apparently nobody else wanted him - Eamon at least gave him a home.  He sent him to the Chantry when his new wife - perhaps reasonable, perhap not - objected.  The Chantry may not have been what Alistair wanted, but it's hardly kicking him out into the street.  And Eamon DID regret it, it seems to me.

As for the Landsmeet, as pointed out, he had been poisoned - on Loghain's orders, btw - when it started.  While I don't want to make this another Loghain discussion, there is a valid view that Loghain's regency is illegal, or at least on questionable grounds, and there is already a civil war going on over it.  Calling the Landsmeet is a way to stop it.

As to putting Alistair on the throne, sure Eamon probably assumes that this will help him, but also, again, there is a valid view that the bloodline is important, and that Alistair has a fair claim to the throne.  Making Ali king is also a way of depriving Loghain of power, something it seems might also go a long way to stopping the civil war.

I'm not arguing that this is the ONLY way to view what Eamon did - I don't really like the guy, myself - but he does have a valid reason for what he's doing, a fair one.  If it benefits him as well, it's hardly enough to make what he's doing wrong or amoral.

[Wulfram]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, set them up and then talk to him about it at Redcliff.  No, he's not so positive about it.

It's not what he would personally prefer, but he does clearly back it before the landsmeet.  If he was putting his personal ambitions before the interests of Ferelden, that wouldn't make much sense.

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wouldn't like the DA anime to be set during Origins, as I pretty much know what choices they are going to make. 

Wynne would be the Team Mom and Loghain would be killed with righteous fury.

Why does everyone always assume the worst about anime?

[Elhanan]

tool_bot wrote...

Why does everyone always assume the worst about anime?

Personal dislike, in my case. I have seen very little I care for in my experience.

[Sarah1281]

tool_bot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wouldn't like the DA anime to be set during Origins, as I pretty much know what choices they are going to make. 

Wynne would be the Team Mom and Loghain would be killed with righteous fury.

Why does everyone always assume the worst about anime?

 Most of the DA-related things that have come out since the game have been less-than-impressive.

And as far as Eamon's morality went, I mean that the anime will probably show him as having the unquestionable moral high ground and not in any way be trying to pull off a power grab.

[tool_bot]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Most of the DA-related things that have come out since the game have been less-than-impressive.

I haven't been following that news so I'll defer to your knowledge.

And as far as Eamon's morality went, I mean that the anime will probably show him as having the unquestionable moral high ground and not in any way be trying to pull off a power grab.

Maybe.

Who's doing the writing and animating, do you happen to know?

[tool_bot]

Elhanan wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Why does everyone always assume the worst about anime?

Personal dislike, in my case. I have seen very little I care for in my experience.

Me, too but I've seen enough to know it's no different then any other show/whatever.

[ejoslin]

Alistair does say he slept with the hounds on more than one occasion. I'm not even sure what the point of that is -- have him sleep with the squires instead of the dogs at least. Yet... Alistair has very fond memories of Eamon. Eamon did buy him at least one toy and took him when he went travelling rather than just leaving him with the Redcliff staff.



Actually, writing that out, what Alistair says about how he was raised is a bit inconsistent.

[Elhanan]

ejoslin wrote...

Alistair does say he slept with the hounds on more than one occasion. I'm not even sure what the point of that is -- have him sleep with the squires instead of the dogs at least. Yet... Alistair has very fond memories of Eamon. Eamon did buy him at least one toy and took him when he went travelling rather than just leaving him with the Redcliff staff.

Actually, writing that out, what Alistair says about how he was raised is a bit inconsistent.

I adore the character, but the way he thinks in general is a bit inconsistent; somewhat ADD. And when he gets all whiney with Wynne over soiled and ripped clothing, I begin to reconsider my choices for the Landsmeet....

[tool_bot]

Elhanan wrote...
I adore the character, but the way he thinks in general is a bit inconsistent; somewhat ADD. And when he gets all whiney with Wynne over soiled and ripped clothing, I begin to reconsider my choices for the Landsmeet....

I remember running around Denerim when that sock dialog pops up. I can't help but wonder who exactly trained Alistair or taught him anything. I can understand his inferiority complex but a lot of the small things he does makes it seem like he wasn't much of a soldier.

[Elhanan]

tool_bot wrote...

I remember running around Denerim when that sock dialog pops up. I can't help but wonder who exactly trained Alistair or taught him anything. I can understand his inferiority complex but a lot of the small things he does makes it seem like he wasn't much of a soldier.

Well, in his defense he did not have/wear a helm until my Warden arrived. Perhaps he suffers from head trauma....

[Monica21]

tool_bot wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
I adore the character, but the way he thinks in general is a bit inconsistent; somewhat ADD. And when he gets all whiney with Wynne over soiled and ripped clothing, I begin to reconsider my choices for the Landsmeet....

I remember running around Denerim when that sock dialog pops up. I can't help but wonder who exactly trained Alistair or taught him anything. I can understand his inferiority complex but a lot of the small things he does makes it seem like he wasn't much of a soldier.

Because he was never trained as a soldier. He was sent off to the Chantry and trained to control mages. Alistair does say that the Templars are an army, but I'm really not sure what he means by that. I'm more inclined to believe just in sheer numbers and the ability to control mages, but I don't think they are trained strategists and tacticians, if only because their job is not strategy and tactics. It's control and intimidation.

[Wulfram]

Probably the people picked out for leadership roles would be trained in strategy and tactics, but I doubt that Alistair would be one of them.

[Morrigans God son]

I liked Loghain, but I just couldn't bring myself to get rid of poor Alistair. Except for one playthrough, when I was a naughty boy.