12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

People were complaining that the game did not allow you to side with Loghain from the beginning.  I pointed out that the facts of the story, such as Loghain retreating from Ostagar and more to the point blaming the Wardens and trying to kill you, don't leave much room for "well, he's probably a good guy, let's go talk to him and we can work this out."  It enforces a point of view because, well, that's the story POV and it's borne out through the resolution as well.

Because that would be a paralell story, requiring alot of resources that the game didn't have or develop. But in all actuality, it could, in theory, be implemented. I even suggested once that it would have made a far better DLC than Darkspawn Chronicles. But I have played characters that did indeed sympathize with and agree with Loghain, and would have joined his cause given the chance. But, due to game, time, and story limitations, this could not be implemented.

Loghain's trying to kill the Warden isn't an automatic no-go. After all, there are many people who try to kill you, that you can defeat, and then convince them to join your cause (Zevran), see things your way and stop bothering you (Landry), or convince to leave you alone, period.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...
People were complaining that the game did not allow you to side with Loghain from the beginning.  I pointed out that the facts of the story, such as Loghain retreating from Ostagar and more to the point blaming the Wardens and trying to kill you, don't leave much room for "well, he's probably a good guy, let's go talk to him and we can work this out."  It enforces a point of view because, well, that's the story POV and it's borne out through the resolution as well.

I don't agree with this at all. I don't think it enforces a POV. That's part of what makes it a first person narrative, and not a third person one. Even in my first playthrough, when Loghain retreated, my characters reaction was not "Loghain must be evil!", it was "Why did he do that? What do I not know? Maybe there was a logical explanation." And when Eamon suggested that if we surrendered, the civil war would be over faster, I thought "Why don't we just do that, then? Why don't we unite for now and deal with this political issue later? By any chance are we making things worse by opposing him?"

Modifié par phaonica, 27 août 2010 - 07:28 .

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...
I remember times when my actions were limited/dictated, but I don't recall anywhere where my reasons for my actions were dictated. No, I can't let Loghain go back to Gwaren. I have to figure out for myself why that is. However, nowhere in the game does it say "You don't allow Loghain to go back to Gwaren because he can't be trusted with the armies." or whatever. I have to execute Howe, too. I have to decide what my reasons for that are. However, the game *still* doesn't say anywhere, "You execute Howe to satisfy your need for revenge." The story may not be completely open-ended, but your perspective does seem to be open.

Sure but with Loghain, the game does enforce a certain perspective or at least strongly points to one.

Let's take, for example, the instances where you encounter Loghain messengers.  I'm going from memory so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any dialogue option which was even neutral.  Certainly there was nothing like "Take a message to Loghain:  I think he's ace, let's work together."  In Orzammar, it is either Intimidating by saying "run along to your false king," or else options which lead to you killing Loghain's agents.

Edit:  Another instance that comes to mind is the Chantry Board quest "Loghain's Push."  If the story was truly open ended, you would be able to decide whether to side with Loghain's troops or with the bann's.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 août 2010 - 07:46 .

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Because that would be a paralell story, requiring alot of resources that the game didn't have or develop. But in all actuality, it could, in theory, be implemented. I even suggested once that it would have made a far better DLC than Darkspawn Chronicles. But I have played characters that did indeed sympathize with and agree with Loghain, and would have joined his cause given the chance. But, due to game, time, and story limitations, this could not be implemented.

Well, ok?  I'm not saying that the story could not have been written in a different way, but it wasn't.  I guess this is why AU fanfiction is so popular. 

Loghain's trying to kill the Warden isn't an automatic no-go. After all, there are many people who try to kill you, that you can defeat, and then convince them to join your cause (Zevran), see things your way and stop bothering you (Landry), or convince to leave you alone, period.

And you get to do the same with Loghain, eventually.  I actually would have found Loghain's turn on a dime to be more plausible if it had occurred earlier in the game.  As late in the day as it comes, it never struck me as plausible, but I recognize others disagree.

[Sarah1281]

Well, calling Loghain a King IS false; he's only the regent. I also didn't think the Lothering bandit message of 'He'll have to do better than this' was all that 'OMG, you have to think he's evil, guys!' on the part of the game. Sending so little soldiers behind for if you showed up was really ineffectual. At Eamon's estate, you can even try to get on Loghain's side but he won't hear of it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, calling Loghain a King IS false; he's only the regent. I also didn't think the Lothering bandit message of 'He'll have to do better than this' was all that 'OMG, you have to think he's evil, guys!' on the part of the game. Sending so little soldiers behind for if you showed up was really ineffectual. At Eamon's estate, you can even try to get on Loghain's side but he won't hear of it.

Yes. Loggy does need to recieve a severe beating plus public humiliation to see things your way. 

Which usually is how I like my relationships to begin, anyways.

[Costin_Razvan]

Yes. Loggy does need to recieve a severe beating plus public humiliation to see things your way.

Which usually is how I like my relationships to begin, anyways.

You, my dear, are a strange woman.

Addai: Yes, the game forces us to fight against Loghain until the Landsmeet, but after the Landsmeet, in camp ( if you spare him ) you can determine how you view his actions for good or bad. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 août 2010 - 07:59 .

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Sure but with Loghain, the game does enforce a certain perspective or at least strongly points to one.

Let's take, for example, the instances where you encounter Loghain messengers.  I'm going from memory so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any dialogue option which was even neutral.  Certainly there was nothing like "Take a message to Loghain:  I think he's ace, let's work together."  In Orzammar, it is either Intimidating by saying "run along to your false king," or else options which lead to you killing Loghain's agents.

Edit:  Another instance that comes to mind is the Chantry Board quest "Loghain's Push."  If the story was truly open ended, you would be able to decide whether to side with Loghain's troops or with the bann's.

It's true that there were some conversations I came across that I thought "My character wouldn't say any of these things," and in that respect it could be argued that even your roleplaying choices are limited. But I never felt like a perspective was being forced on my character, only that the developers can't be expected to anticipate every reaction any more than they can program any action.

The Loghain's Push quest is trickier for me because of the way it's worded.

The notice says

Brothers and sisters, word has arrived of an imminent conflict. Teyrn Loghain's honored forces continue to root out threats to our nation, and their actions deserve support from the common people.
While it is unusual to post troop movements to the public board, I believe it is necessary for brethren near the affected area to respect the honored teyrn by aiding his troops. Provide whatever comfort you feel they deserve, and Ferelden will be the stronger for it.
Treat these brave soldiers as you would treat Loghain himself and the spiritual rewards will be generous.

I interpreted that if I agreed to do the quest, I would be aiding Loghain's troops against the banns, which I didn't want to do. So I didn't accept the quest, and I didn't know until I read the toolset that the quest was actually to sabotage his troops.

On the other hand, you're right that once you do accept the quest (if you interpreted it differently than I did, or for whatever reason), it does seem to impose an opinion on your character.

Plot Accepted: The Chantry has unwittingly provided an opportunity to disrupt the plans of the traitorous Loghain. Head to the location marked on your map and intercept his forces.
Plot Completed: You have disrupted Loghain's forces and no doubt hampered his plans. Return to the Chantry Board to report this "tragic" loss.

It makes me wonder, if the character who accepted this quest has such a such a strong opinion against Loghain, why they accepted the quest in the first place.

Modifié par phaonica, 27 août 2010 - 08:39 .

[Sarah1281]

It makes me wonder why the Chantry pays you to tell them that Loghain lost. You didn't do what the quest was asking.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

It makes me wonder, if the character who accepted this quest has such a such a strong opinion against Loghain, why they accepted the quest in the first place.

It's free information on your adversary's plans, and if you take the notice first then a Loghain supporter can't come along behind you and do it.

[CalJones]

I always ignore the Loghain's Push quest. As a confirmed Loggy sympathiser, I feel his troops could better be used to fight the Blight than die by my hand. Even if I was anti-Loghain then it would seem suicide to go to a battle involving his troops when I have a price on my head. Silly, silly quest.

Modifié par CalJones, 27 août 2010 - 09:00 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I do it mainly since I am a sidequst dooer.

Cant not do one since that drives me crazy.



It just sits there... taunting me in its uncompletedness.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It makes me wonder, if the character who accepted this quest has such a such a strong opinion against Loghain, why they accepted the quest in the first place.

It's free information on your adversary's plans, and if you take the notice first then a Loghain supporter can't come along behind you and do it.

Ok, fair enough. That does seem to prove that at least this part of the quest (whether or not to accept it) is open to perspective, and that it doesn't force an opinion upon you, that you can seem to choose your side just by refusing or accepting the quest. If someone *did* take the quest because they wanted to help Loghain's troops, and then they found out that the quest was to sabotage them, I would think that that was almost a dirty trick on the part of the writers. I would have thought that they were forcing a view on me, and I would have refused to complete the quest. I suppose it could be argued that that's grating against the spirit of the game, that you are *supposed* to think a certain way. But if that were true, the game wouldn't make such a big deal about having the power to make choices, to form a perspective, and how different characters come to different conclusions based on those perspectives.

Modifié par phaonica, 27 août 2010 - 09:19 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...


It makes me wonder, if the character who accepted this quest has such a such a strong opinion against Loghain, why they accepted the quest in the first place.

The characters I've played that did take the quest but hated Loghain did so for the express purpose of hoping to throw a monkey wrench in his plans, as well as the hope of getting lucky and running into and killing him. They had no intent on doing as the Chantry requested.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I always ignore the Loghain's Push quest. As a confirmed Loggy sympathiser, I feel his troops could better be used to fight the Blight than die by my hand. Even if I was anti-Loghain then it would seem suicide to go to a battle involving his troops when I have a price on my head. Silly, silly quest.

Throughout most of the game, you're trying to end the civil war and not just defeat the Blight.  So that does enforce a bit of a perspective on you (as I've been saying ).  You can't choose to side with Loghain or, as my Dalish PCs probably would but for Alistair, ignore him.

[CalJones]

Yeah, that enforced perspective thing sucks. Still, whilst you've given good enough reasons to take the quest, there are just as many good reasons not to take it.

@ Giggles - I just don't click it on the board, so it never appears in my journal and taunts me with its incompleteness.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Throughout most of the game, you're trying to end the civil war and not just defeat the Blight.  So that does enforce a bit of a perspective on you (as I've been saying ).  You can't choose to side with Loghain or, as my Dalish PCs probably would but for Alistair, ignore him.

You are required to deal with the civil war and with the Blight, and you have to determine for yourself why you are doing those things. Within the context of the game, you only have as much freedom to think as you have freedom to act. However, given the actions that you *do* have control over, you are generally not dictated the reason why your character made a certain decision.

[CalJones]

Yes, in my games I can't justify going to get the Ashes when darkspawn are ravaging the country and Bann Teagan can substitute for Eamon...so the only way I can justify it is that I can't afford to have Alistair turn into a big sobbing mess over Eamon the way he did over Duncan.
(Yes I know there are many arguments why Eamon is the only one with enough power to stand up to Loghain, blah blah blah...I just hate him with the power of a thousand suns).

[phaonica]

In honor of the upcoming Morrigan DLC:

Modifié par phaonica, 28 août 2010 - 11:18 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain is definently going WTF? When you propose the DR.

[Sarah1281]

When you ask Loghain or Alistair to do the DR as a male Warden, do either of them ask why can't you just do it?

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

When you ask Loghain or Alistair to do the DR as a male Warden, do either of them ask why can't you just do it?

Alistair dosent, I am not sure about Loghain.

Why they dont I never will get.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

When you ask Loghain or Alistair to do the DR as a male Warden, do either of them ask why can't you just do it?

I do recall that Alistair says something like "I'm not looking forward to sleeping with your woman."  Heh.  Maybe they are just being delicate about a presumed case of ED.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

When you ask Loghain or Alistair to do the DR as a male Warden, do either of them ask why can't you just do it?

I don' t know. My male warden didn't spare Loghain (and wasn't in a romance with Morrigan). From memory (and I've read the conversation lots of times) I don't think he does. I'll look it up real quick. ...

Okay, you get this if a romance with Morrigan is active:  

Perhaps not, but if you are so... attached, then why do you not lie with the woman? I find it difficult to believe I'm so special.

But that's all he says about it that.

Modifié par phaonica, 28 août 2010 - 11:37 .

[phaonica]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Loghain is definently going WTF? When you propose the DR.

Yeah, it's pretty funny.

PC: I need you to sleep with Morrigan. As part of a ritual.
Loghain: (Scoffs) You're joking. Eh, you are joking, I hope.
Loghain: I... see that you're not. (Sigh) I suppose I should not underestimate your capacity to take the bizarre approach when required. Just what is this ritual supposed to accomplish?

Modifié par phaonica, 28 août 2010 - 11:42 .