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[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

My kingdom for a Stolen Throne DLC. I know it'll never happen, but if the Maker is taking requests...

Forget a DLC. . .how about a separate "prequel" game?!? You wouldn't want to play as Loghain, though, I don't think, because of the lack of voicing, unless they could get ST to voice the PC? That seems weird. We would need The Voice. Would you play as Maric? Some as yet unnamed random person who was close enough to both characters to go into battle with them? Rowan? Maybe a choice between Maric and Rowan for those who do/do not care to romance certain characters?

. . .hmm. . .*wheels turning*

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

If it is the writing that is bothersome, then skip The Calling. The book is very heavy on the Maric and Duncan side, and is really only interesting if you want to compare the Architect's goals in TC versus Awakening, and if you're interested in a fledgling Warden named Duncan. Although, I have to admit that the Loghain's brief appearance in both the beginning and end steal the show. (Or book, as it were.)

Aww, but Maric and Fiona...  :wub:  Plus I liked the other Grey Wardens like Kell.

In any Stolen Throne game I would definitely want to play a Night Elf.  I wish you could have "met" at least one of those personally and seen some interaction between them and Loghain.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

If it is the writing that is bothersome, then skip The Calling. The book is very heavy on the Maric and Duncan side, and is really only interesting if you want to compare the Architect's goals in TC versus Awakening, and if you're interested in a fledgling Warden named Duncan. Although, I have to admit that the Loghain's brief appearance in both the beginning and end steal the show. (Or book, as it were.)

Aww, but Maric and Fiona...  :wub:  Plus I liked the other Grey Wardens like Kell.

In any Stolen Throne game I would definitely want to play a Night Elf.  I wish you could have "met" at least one of those personally and seen some interaction between them and Loghain.

Hehe... I do like them. Although it shouldn't be surprising that I would want more Loghain, right? The other Wardens were cool, but I just knew I wouldn't see them again. And the young Duncan is definitely an interesting character.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I hope / wish that the DA anime thing is about TST. Except more polished.

[Addai]

Ohh... that would be cool. I would die over more Maric and Loghain. Die. Even though I am currently torturing both of them myself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Though I personally prefer Loghain over Maric. The duo would be nothing without Maric. Polar opposites, yet perfect friends.

[CalJones]

I've always maintained that Loghain's questionable descision making in Origins is down to the fact he has no humanising influences left in his life. Rowan's dead, Maric's dead, his wife is dead (not that he spent that much time with her, but he obviously loved her enough to get her a rose bush)...all he has left is Anora, and she's, if anything, even more ruthless and pragmatic than he is.

I'm interested to see how Ellie Cousland changes things, Addai.

[phaonica]

I don't know. Is that to say that there really were better options that Loghain didn't recognize because of that detachment (he consistantly maintains that whatever he did seemed necessary at the time)? Or is it that without a humanising influence, Loghain is too tempted to take the 'easier' pragmatic paths? Perhaps Maric's influence wasn't necessarily about leading Loghain away from the harsher paths, but about smoothing out the presentation to others?

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree with Phaonica. The only action I think of as a mistake is Loghain's heavy handed attempt to make the bannorn accept his authority. Had Maric been there, he might have been able to make it look less heavy handed. Good cop, bad cop sort of thing.

Though we have to remember that when Maric met with nobles in a secret meeting, they didn't take him seriously until Loghain killed a deserter.

[Costin_Razvan]

In my opinion while what Loghain did could be considered a mistake, I do not think for a second that a civil war would not have occurred regardless of that. Certainly in situation where Loghain would have supported Anora's bid for the throne without declaring himself regent MIGHT have drawn more allies to his side, it would not have stopped the Civil War.

While Anora is loved, she is still Loghain's daughter and a commoner by blood, now for us that might not matter that much, but for nobles in Medieval times it mattered a great deal. Also while she is a popular queen she does not have so strong a claim for the throne.

Also...I personally would not want Anora to lead Fereldan in a time of war. Since she does appear in favor of asking Orlais for military aid...whenever I see that cinematic with her proposing exactly that to Loghain my reaction is: "Are you dumb girl?"

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 11 octobre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Persephone]

Zjarcal wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

About bringing up the slavery issue at the Landsmeet, my Dalish brought up the slavery argument first because that's what bothered her the most. She wasn't exactly thinking about which arguments would go better with the nobility, so it could've backfired against her but she didn't care. The same will happen with my CE. It's a good thing all those arguments work in favor of the PC.

The only arguments that I've never brought up the Cailan "betrayal" and Alistair's bloodline as arguments. None of my characters care about either of those.

I brought up Ostagar in my first playthrough and haven't since then. The Landsmeet tied because I backed Anora and the duel went on, but I haven't brought it up since. No one is impressed by whatever you think happened at Ostagar.

I think I also brought it up in my first playthrough, but that was a horrible playthrough from an RP perspective (I was hell bent on putting Alistair on the throne and I hated Anora... ).

One thing I always do is fight the big brawl. I just love it!

We've all been there, hehe. My elf wanted Alistair (Unhardened) to be king. So she made him king and said she'd marry him. He rebuked her in public. And broke up with her afterwards.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh God. Yesterday I was looking up 1776 on TV tropes and went from that to the American Revolution to Cincinnatus to Never Live It Down to Taylor Swift...about three hours later I discovered 'Growing Up Cullen' which made it all worth it.

I think I'm immune, but I'm immune to a lot of popular culture (much to my husband's dismay).

On topic fanart!



 

Can you say AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW???:wub::wub:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In my opinion while what Loghain did could be considered a mistake, I do not think for a second that a civil war would not have occurred regardless of that. Certainly in situation where Loghain would have supported Anora's bid for the throne without declaring himself regent MIGHT have drawn more allies to his side, it would not have stopped the Civil War.

I don't doubt that a civil war might have happened regardless. But we know that the Bannorn is highly divisive. Unless given reason to unite, they will fight amongst each other. Had Loghain played it smart, he could have prevented all the Bannorn uniting together and it would have made his job much easier.

A civil war might have happened anyways, but it would not have been on the same scale.
I don't think Anora's origin was a *major* reason for the civil war. She had always been popular and while her claim is not that strong, I think the majority would have accepted her as Queen, which they do at the end anyways if you make her Queen.  
That's not to say that there wasn't a certain disdain to Anora's rots, we hear rumours about her origin making the Maker so mad that she can't have kids. Considering the intelligence of common banns, I think some would actually believe that.

[Sarah1281]

Also...I personally would not want Anora to lead Fereldan in a time of war. Since she does appear in favor of asking Orlais for military aid...whenever I see that cinematic with her proposing exactly that to Loghain my reaction is: "Are you dumb girl?"

With the information she was working with, she honestly didn't think that Ferelden could win against the Blight (and they really shouldn't have). She wasn't eager to invite Orlais in, she just saw being potentially reconquered as a lesser evil than having the entire country wiped out. They could eventually regain their independence again but they couldn't bring themselves back to life.

[CalJones]

I'd say Loghain's choice of allies was something of a mistake - both Howe and Uldred were self-serving and unbalanced.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CalJones wrote...

I'd say Loghain's choice of allies was something of a mistake - both Howe and Uldred were self-serving and unbalanced.

I think his alliance with Uldred made sense. If all worked according to plan and if Wynne was wise enough to stfu, Loghain would have had all the mages in the circle at his disposal.

Howe, well we don't really know how they became allies. We do know there had been some alliance before Ostagar. And apparently Loghain knew exactly what Howe was and he despised him. I guess Loghain saw in Howe someone who understands politics, something he has little patience for. Was it a complete mistake? I personally don't think so. Howe would be a more powerful ally than most other nobles. But Howe was growing too powerful and ambitious as it were and I am not sure Loghain anticipated this. 

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't doubt that a civil war might have happened regardless. But we know that the Bannorn is highly divisive. Unless given reason to unite, they will fight amongst each other. Had Loghain played it smart, he could have prevented all the Bannorn uniting together and it would have made his job much easier.

The Bannorn rose up to fight Loghain at Teagan's/Eamon's behest, and then Eamon got into a coma and without leadership Loghain was able to crush them. The only difference i see in this if Loghain had played it smart is that Eamon and Teagan would have had less allies.

which they do at the end anyways if you make her Queen.

There is one year difference between Ostagar and the end of the Blight ( which is probably a few weeks after the Landsmeet ), so I do not think what happens at the Landsmeet can be applied here.

With the information she was working with, she honestly didn't think that Ferelden could win against the Blight (and they really shouldn't have). She wasn't eager to invite Orlais in, she just saw being potentially reconquered as a lesser evil than having the entire country wiped out. They could eventually regain their independence again but they couldn't bring themselves back to life.

Really? Loghain himself makes it clear in camp ( if you accuse him of being a slaver ) that the army you have could have been three times larger then what you have currently...and what does Oghren say at the Battle of Denerim: "...We're outnumbered three to one!"

So no, Fereldan didn't need Orlesian aid, hell it didn't need to Dwarves, Elves/Werewolves, Mages/Templars. Loghain could have fought the army at Denerim on open ground and won, easily in fact ( since let's face it, the average darkspawn is not match for the average human in a pitched battle ).

The only thing Fereldan needed was a Grey Warden to kill the Archdemon, and that's neither spectacular or world changing, as some people claim their wardens are. Even a Dwarf who becomes Paragon doesn't do much and the only one who can be safely said that CAN leave a big stamp on the world is a Cousland who marries Alistair/Anora.

As for Loghain's allies. Uldred was a good choice...and Howe...well it was either ally Howe or have him join the Bannorn, and when one person has troops in Denerim and Highever, making them an enemy is a BAD move.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 11 octobre 2010 - 05:16 .

[Sarah1281]

I didn't say anything about how uber-special the Warden is or should be. Just becuase, looking back, Ferelden COULD have stopped the Blight on their own as the Archdemon showed up in Denerim doesn't mean that people who don't happen to be psychic will know that it would be so stupid and attack so openly so quickly. Ferelden pulls off a very unlikely victory and what probably should have happened was that the three (three!) Wardens on hand would have gotten themselves killed and then Ferelden would have been swallowed up.

[Costin_Razvan]

Fereldan does pull off a lucky victory because they don't have the troops they could have if the Warden had not stopped the slavers.



If they had those troops, then they could have won on the open ground.

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

I'd say Loghain's choice of allies was something of a mistake - both Howe and Uldred were self-serving and unbalanced.

That is true. But in his position, you have to pick the most powerful and useful allies available. Had there been no obnoxious Warden thwarting him at every turn.......:whistle:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The Bannorn rose up to fight Loghain at Teagan's/Eamon's behest, and then Eamon got into a coma and without leadership Loghain was able to crush them. The only difference i see in this if Loghain had played it smart is that Eamon and Teagan would have had less allies.

Eamon was poisoned before that, so no, they didn't. He might have told them to if he wasn't poisonned, and that may have been the whole point of Loghain eliminating him anyhow, but that's speculating.
Teagan did yes, but is he that influencial as to rally all the Bannorn under his command? All we see of him is him hiding in a Chantry with women and children. Hardly a good position to be able to lead the bannorn. I think they were acting mostly independently. Teagan sparked it yes, but didn't lead it. 

If Loghain played it smart (elminating Eamon was smart), he would not have had to deal with all the Bannorn united. So yes, it would have been less nobles to fight.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
There is one year difference between Ostagar and the end of the Blight ( which is probably a few weeks after the Landsmeet ), so I do not think what happens at the Landsmeet can be applied here.

Is a year really going to change the hearts and minds of nobles?
If you think that they reject Anora because of her roots and that that was the major reason for the war, is one year enough to change that prejudice? 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 octobre 2010 - 05:23 .

[Persephone]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Fereldan does pull off a lucky victory because they don't have the troops they could have if the Warden had not stopped the slavers.

If they had those troops, then they could have won on the open ground.

I don't think a few, untrained city elves from the Alienage could have made that big a difference. :innocent: Or am I misunderstanding you there?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
If they had those troops, then they could have won on the open ground.

In a battle or two yes, but he could not have defeated the Archdemon. Of course he doesn't know that and could not have known that. 

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Fereldan does pull off a lucky victory because they don't have the troops they could have if the Warden had not stopped the slavers.

If they had those troops, then they could have won on the open ground.

Didn't Caladrius say something about how they were only going to take one more shipment of slaves because, despite their agreement with Loghain, they would become inconvenient past a certain point.

In fact, here's the quote: "Truth be told, there was always a limit to how long we were going to be able to operate here. We've paid for many of Loghain's troops, but once the Landsmeet is done we become... inconvenient."

[Zjarcal]

CalJones wrote...

I've always maintained that Loghain's questionable descision making in Origins is down to the fact he has no humanising influences left in his life. Rowan's dead, Maric's dead, his wife is dead (not that he spent that much time with her, but he obviously loved her enough to get her a rose bush)...all he has left is Anora, and she's, if anything, even more ruthless and pragmatic than he is.
I'm interested to see how Ellie Cousland changes things, Addai.

phaonica wrote...

I don't know. Is that to say that there really were better options that Loghain didn't recognize because of that detachment (he consistantly maintains that whatever he did seemed necessary at the time)? Or is it that without a humanising influence, Loghain is too tempted to take the 'easier' pragmatic paths? Perhaps Maric's influence wasn't necessarily about leading Loghain away from the harsher paths, but about smoothing out the presentation to others?

I'm a little late to this discussion.

I agree with Cal on this one, although I also understand phaonica's point. Personally, I do think Loghain made mistakes, allowing the slavery of elves the biggest one. I don't care how pragmatic you are, slavery is just wrong, period. Forcing himself as Regent being another one.

Having Maric instead of Howe as a major influence could've changed his point of view in some of the decisions he made.

EDIT: Perhaps I made a mistake by involving Maric in the above example. My point is, if Loghain had a different influence other than Howe, then maybe it could've changed his point of view.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 octobre 2010 - 06:17 .