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[Sarah1281]

If Maric were still around then Loghain wouldn't have been in a position to be making those decisions. Maric either would have been king or stepped down for whatever reason so Cailan could rule in which case he could have reassumed the throne or ensured Anora could take it without a regent.

[Costin_Razvan]

Eamon was poisoned before that, so no, they didn't. He might have told them to if he wasn't poisonned, and that may have been the whole point of Loghain eliminating him anyhow, but that's speculating.

Teagan did yes, but is he that influencial as to rally all the Bannorn under his command? All we see of him is him hiding in a Chantry with women and children. Hardly a good position to be able to lead the bannorn. I think they were acting mostly independently. Teagan sparked it yes, but didn't lead it.



If Loghain played it smart (elminating Eamon was smart), he would not have had to deal with all the Bannorn united. So yes, it would have been less nobles to fight.

We know Eamon fell ill before Ostagar, what we do not know is when he lapsed into a coma but I think it happened just after or close to the time when the Warden leaves Lothering.

Is a year really going to change the hearts and minds of nobles?

If you think that they reject Anora because of her roots and that that was the major reason for the war, is one year enough to change that prejudice?

Because the situation is different after one year of enduring a Blight. The nobles accept your choice at the Landsmeet because of two reason:



A) You won a trial by combat to determine exactly who will be queen/king, and by the rules of the Landsmeet they respect it...for now. We know for a fact the nobility has problems in Awakening with Anora ruling.

They perhaps realize the need for an end to the Civil War. Arl Wulf in fact sides with the Warden if he/she persuades him they care about defeating the Blight and not just placing someone on the throne.

I don't think a few, untrained city elves from the Alienage could have made that big a difference. Or am I misunderstanding you there?

Didn't Caladrius say something about how they were only going to take one more shipment of slaves because, despite their agreement with Loghain, they would become inconvenient past a certain point.



In fact, here's the quote: "Truth be told, there was always a limit to how long we were going to be able to operate here. We've paid for many of Loghain's troops, but once the Landsmeet is done we become... inconvenient."

Loghain was expecting one final payment from the slavers, one that does not come since you kill/ frighten them off/make a deal with them. It's clear the slavers don't honor their end of the deal.

In a battle or two yes, but he could not have defeated the Archdemon. Of course he doesn't know that and could not have known that.

I am of the opinion that he kept Riordan alive to determine if there was any value to the Grey Warden myths, he isn't stupid and it depends if Riordan would have told the truth or not.



Personally I think he would have. He already implies it heavily in front of the entire Landsmeet in Origins.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
We know Eamon fell ill before Ostagar, what we do not know is when he lapsed into a coma but I think it happened just after or close to the time when the Warden leaves Lothering.

In any case, he was too sick to be in Denerim and to lead the bannorn. Maybe Teagan was acting under Eamons' advice? In any case, both were not in a position to lead all the bannorn.

But we agree that if Loghain played it differently, he would have had less enemies to deal with.

Because the situation is different after one year of enduring a Blight. The nobles accept your choice at the Landsmeet because of two reason:

A) You won a trial by combat to determine exactly who will be queen/king, and by the rules of the Landsmeet they respect it...for now. We know for a fact the nobility has problems in Awakening with Anora ruling.
They perhaps realize the need for an end to the Civil War. Arl Wulf in fact sides with the Warden if he/she persuades him they care about defeating the Blight and not just placing someone on the throne.

But if they hate the idea of a commoner on the throne so much, why don't they oust Anora after the Blight is over?
The only challenge to Anora's rule was a small rebellion in the name of the Tehreins that get crushed with relative ease. If Alistair's dead, there is no active challenge to her rule.

And those same problems in Awakneing exist if Alistair is king, which suggests that whatever those problems are, it has little to do with the roots of the Monarch. 

Again, I am nto sayign Anora's roots are not  a factor. But they do not seem to me to be a major reason.

And I think he kept Riordan alive for info. Not to determine whether he would be useful or not, otherwise he wouldnt' have tortured him and he would not have given him to Howe.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 octobre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And those same problems in Awakneing exist if Alistair is king, which suggests that whatever those problems are, it has little to do with the roots of the Monarch.

Exactly. And tangentially, there are going to be clear problems not only with succession in Ferelden, but upheaval among the nobility. If Fergus doesn't remarry and/or doesn't have an heir, that means Highever is up for grabs. Gwaren will be because Anora is the only heir and she's either imprisoned or Queen. Redcliffe is going to have problems because Eamon will not produce an heir, and Teagan hasn't married and doesn't have an heir. Highever is probably the safest bet for an heir and stability, but it can't be counted on.

Sorry for the OT-ness, but I've been thinking about that for awhile.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea Ferelden is not in a good situation. Of course my PC had it all planned out, but decided that his God son is more important.

[Monica21]

Have you shared Arcturus' plans and I missed it, or are you keeping them to yourself?

[KnightofPhoenix]

I haven't shared them fully no, mostly because I'd have to write a lot lol

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I haven't shared them fully no, mostly because I'd have to write a lot lol

Blog post!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Huh, I might when I am not busy

[phaonica]

Though we have to remember that when Maric met with nobles in a secret meeting, they didn't take him seriously until Loghain killed a deserter.

This is what I was thinking about. And the situation with Katriel. And dealing with the turncoats. There is a difference between morally wrong and tactically wrong. A humanising influence might change Loghain to do what is morally best, but at the sacrifice of what is tactically best. This might make him a more likeable person, to some, but at the cost of under-supplied troops, battles lost, increased number of lives lost, etc. A humanising influence wouldn't change what he perceived to be the tactically best choices, rather it could influence him away from choosing what he perceived to be the tactically best choices. If a choice 'seemed neccesary at the time' a humanising influence isn't going to change that. One can always say that another point of view could reveal another choice, but a humanising influence does not make an exisiting choice more tactically viable, only more morally supportable.

Modifié par phaonica, 11 octobre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh God. Yesterday I was looking up 1776 on TV tropes and went from that to the American Revolution to Cincinnatus to Never Live It Down to Taylor Swift...about three hours later I discovered 'Growing Up Cullen' which made it all worth it.

I think I'm immune, but I'm immune to a lot of popular culture (much to my husband's dismay).

Immune or not, you're still on it.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh God. Yesterday I was looking up 1776 on TV tropes and went from that to the American Revolution to Cincinnatus to Never Live It Down to Taylor Swift...about three hours later I discovered 'Growing Up Cullen' which made it all worth it.

I think I'm immune, but I'm immune to a lot of popular culture (much to my husband's dismay).

Immune or not, you're still on it.

Aww, thank you very much for the recommendation and the nice review comments!  I didn't even know they had such a thing on that site.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I've always maintained that Loghain's questionable descision making in Origins is down to the fact he has no humanising influences left in his life. Rowan's dead, Maric's dead, his wife is dead (not that he spent that much time with her, but he obviously loved her enough to get her a rose bush)...all he has left is Anora, and she's, if anything, even more ruthless and pragmatic than he is.
I'm interested to see how Ellie Cousland changes things, Addai.

You'll have to stick around and see. 

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 

Also...I personally would not want Anora to lead Fereldan in a time of war. Since she does appear in favor of asking Orlais for military aid...whenever I see that cinematic with her proposing exactly that to Loghain my reaction is: "Are you dumb girl?"

(husband)

That's not dumb, that remark was made in the context of the Blight devouring the entire country.   In that case rolling the dice on the lesser of two evils makes perfect sense.

[Costin_Razvan]

That's not dumb, that remark was made in the context of the Blight devouring the entire country. In that case rolling the dice on the lesser of two evils makes perfect sense

The Blight had not devoured Fereldan or even close to it and the reality is that from a military standpoint Loghain would have been able to fight the Darkspawn and win in a pitched battle, so to consider asking Orlais for aid at that point was dumb.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 octobre 2010 - 01:32 .

[TJPags]

How exactly were the slavers creating more trained troops for Ferelden? More arms, sure, I can see that . . .more armor, etc, sure. Trained men to use them? From where?

[Costin_Razvan]

You think the problem with creating an army is getting people? Not exactly.



Medieval armies relied on peasants for the most part, with almost no training, but they need weapons and armor.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

How exactly were the slavers creating more trained troops for Ferelden? More arms, sure, I can see that . . .more armor, etc, sure. Trained men to use them? From where?

The more money they have the more men they can pay to fight for them for longer. I'm not sure how well trained they'd be but I'm sure they at least get the basics.

[mousestalker]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That's not dumb, that remark was made in the context of the Blight devouring the entire country. In that case rolling the dice on the lesser of two evils makes perfect sense

The Blight had not devoured Fereldan or even close to it and the reality is that from a military standpoint Loghain would have been able to fight the Darkspawn and win in a pitched battle, so to consider asking Orlais for aid at that point was dumb.

How do you know this?

There is a paucity of contemporary or even recently historical military information in game. We do not know how many men are under arms at Ostagar, how many are left afterwards, how many Arl Eamon and the bannorn have, how many the Orlesians have and how many darkspawn are roaming around. All we know is what our Wardens see and what we are told, which isn't very much at all.

[Costin_Razvan]

I said it already, at Denerim Oghren said that you were outnumbered 3 to 1. In camp if you accuse Loghain of being a slaver, then he mentions your army could have been 3 times bigger if you had not disrupted the business going on in the Alienage.

So I base it on that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 octobre 2010 - 01:59 .

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You think the problem with creating an army is getting people? Not exactly.

Medieval armies relied on peasants for the most part, with almost no training, but they need weapons and armor.

Medieval peasants had no armor and usually no weapons beyond, say, a pitchfork or a sicle or a wood-axe.  Arms cost money, so does armor.  Those go to men with traning, not some peasant you just rounded up from weeding his vegetables or milking his cow.

A sword doesn't do much good if the man weilding it doesn't know how to use it, after all.

@ sarah - but where are these men that were going to be paid?  Peasant conscripts don't get paid.  And if there were trained men sitting around looking for something to do, you'd think they might have been willing to fight for their lives/homes even withOUT getting paid.

Or was he going to hire, say, the blackstone irregulars or the crimson oars?

[Costin_Razvan]

Well, I think he was going to give them some training and pay them, and also provide arms and weapons.



For all those he needs money.

[Sarah1281]

Loghain does say "And because you stopped it, the army we have to face the Blight is a third the size it should be. And many more elves wait in the Alienage, defenseless, for the darkspawn to reach them" but I don't see how one final payment could possibly make his army three times as big as it actually was. He was getting regular payments before, after all. And when does Oghren claim you're outnumbered 3 to 1? I looked at his gate speech, his 'we're at the gate' line, and his 'we're at Fort Drakon' line during the climax as well as everyone else's and I didn't see it.

[mousestalker]

Oghren says "Bloody nug runners we're outnumbered three to one" when Riordan giving his analysis at the gates.





Of course, I'd love to know how Oghren knows just how many darkspawn are pillaging their way through the city, but there you are. I'm inclined to believe he's discussing the spawn you and your friends just sliced into itty bitty pieces.

[TJPags]

It takes a while to train a man to use a sword properly, not to mention get used to wearing armor, standing and fighting in formation, etc.



And how long is it from, say, the point where you shut down the slavers to that final battle at Denerim? A week? Maybe 2?



Not nearly enough time to round up all these men, give them their swords/armor, get them all in one place, and then train them.



So, I think Loghain was perhaps giving a best case scenario, which didn't occur.



Also, doesn't change the fact that, at the time Anora suggests the Orlesian help, it is well before the Landsmeet - that happens after (in the game I'm playing right now) I got the ashes, which means I'd completed the Tower, Haven, and most of Redcliffe, that's all. Pretty early game-wise. So he didn't have these men at this time.



And, if he didn't have the men then, and didn't get them by the end of the game, how was one more week of the slavers operating going to triple the size of the army?