12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oghren definitely says that we are outnumbered 3 to 1 at the gates of Denerim, when you first talk to Riordan.

And wow I never knew Loghain says that about disrupting the slave business. Though perhaps he was exaggerating? I mean, a few elven slaves sold would have tripled our army size / equipment? I find that slightly hard to believe. I think it was an exaggeration on his part. Still, I do think the slave business was useful. Many see it as Loghain's ultimate crime, but I don't really.

[Sarah1281]

I'm willing to believe that Caladrius was going to pay Loghain at least 100 sovereign (possibly more but he wanted to save money). He was far too quick to offer to give you the money and the letter and just leave with the elves for him to be paying any more than he was supposed to give Loghain. If you press the issues of the elves he's very willing to fight you so he's hardly afraid. He just doesn't want to fight and so it's clear that he's parting with money already spoken for.



Would 100 sovereign have tripled the army in the short time between the Landsmeet and Denerim?

[TJPags]

mousestalker wrote...

Oghren says "Bloody nug runners we're outnumbered three to one" when Riordan giving his analysis at the gates.


Of course, I'd love to know how Oghren knows just how many darkspawn are pillaging their way through the city, but there you are. I'm inclined to believe he's discussing the spawn you and your friends just sliced into itty bitty pieces.

Thank you.

This is, to me, a HIGHLY suspect evaluation.  He just ran up, he's standing outside the gates, can't see anything of what's going on in the city.  There's no way he could acurrately be judging numbers here. 

Is this the conversation where Riordan says there are 3 generals in the City?  That may be what prompts Oghren to say 3-1 odds.

[Sarah1281]

Two generals.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think it was clear that we were outnumbered. Maybe not 3 to 1, but I'd find it hard to believe that we outnumbered them.

[mousestalker]

Well, you are a notorious telxiphobe 

I think Loghain was trying to justify himself a bit with that remark.

Modifié par mousestalker, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:16 .

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm willing to believe that Caladrius was going to pay Loghain at least 100 sovereign (possibly more but he wanted to save money). He was far too quick to offer to give you the money and the letter and just leave with the elves for him to be paying any more than he was supposed to give Loghain. If you press the issues of the elves he's very willing to fight you so he's hardly afraid. He just doesn't want to fight and so it's clear that he's parting with money already spoken for.

Would 100 sovereign have tripled the army in the short time between the Landsmeet and Denerim?

It couldn't have.

You need to purchase swords and armor, which means having them shipped in.  From where, and how long will that take?  Has to be more than a week.

Or make them - and you don't make swords and armor for, say, 1000 men, in a few days, no matter how fast Wade makes that drakescale armor.

Then, of course, you need to find these men, have THEM travel to one place, and there's another few weeks of recruiting and travelling.  Then a few weeks of training.  Assuming, of course, that there ARE a few thousand men sitting around ready to fight who can be found.

It's just not feasible in that short a time.  Longer time, perhaps, or perhaps a 'best case scenario' as I said before.  But in time for that final battle at Denerim?  Hardly.

[KnightofPhoenix]

What's a telxiphobe?

[mousestalker]

elf-hater

[TJPags]

@ Sarah - 2 generals then.  There goes that theory of mine. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think it was clear that we were outnumbered. Maybe not 3 to 1, but I'd find it hard to believe that we outnumbered them.

I wasn't implying WE outnumbered THEM.  I was implying that Oghren's estimate seems based on, well, pretty much nothing, so can hardly be reliable.

It might have been 2-1, might have been 5-1.  Unlikely that Oghren was right, except by luck.

[Costin_Razvan]

It couldn't have.

You need to purchase swords and armor, which means having them shipped in. From where, and how long will that take? Has to be more than a week.

Or make them - and you don't make swords and armor for, say, 1000 men, in a few days, no matter how fast Wade makes that drakescale armor.

Then, of course, you need to find these men, have THEM travel to one place, and there's another few weeks of recruiting and travelling. Then a few weeks of training. Assuming, of course, that there ARE a few thousand men sitting around ready to fight who can be found.

It's just not feasible in that short a time. Longer time, perhaps, or perhaps a 'best case scenario' as I said before. But in time for that final battle at Denerim? Hardly.

I think Loghain already had the plans set in motion for that but canceled them after you destroyed the slave operation, that's just my opinion anyway.

I think he expected one final large payment ( like say a few thousand sovereigns ) that never came.

 Also, doesn't change the fact that, at the time Anora suggests the Orlesian help, it is well before the Landsmeet - that happens after (in the game I'm playing right now) I got the ashes, which means I'd completed the Tower, Haven, and most of Redcliffe, that's all. Pretty early game-wise. So he didn't have these men at this time.

And neither were the Darkspawn pushing that far into Fereldan by then. I mean certainly asking Orlais for aid would be a necessary thing once things got dire, but things weren't THAT bad.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

mousestalker wrote...

elf-hater

I am not sure where you got this assumption, but I am not.
Hate is a very useless emotion.

[Sarah1281]

And neither were the Darkspawn pushing that far into Fereldan by then. I mean certainly asking Orlais for aid would be a necessary thing once things got dire, but things weren't THAT bad.

But once things got that dire Orlais was pissed at Ferelden and was content to watch it fall. I don't think Anora approaching the Orlesians and asking for help in the future if things got that bad would have been a mistaken. The troops wouldn't have been waiting at the border indefinitely anymore and there would be a plan in place to have aid if absolutely necessary.

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It couldn't have.

You need to purchase swords and armor, which means having them shipped in. From where, and how long will that take? Has to be more than a week.

Or make them - and you don't make swords and armor for, say, 1000 men, in a few days, no matter how fast Wade makes that drakescale armor.

Then, of course, you need to find these men, have THEM travel to one place, and there's another few weeks of recruiting and travelling. Then a few weeks of training. Assuming, of course, that there ARE a few thousand men sitting around ready to fight who can be found.

It's just not feasible in that short a time. Longer time, perhaps, or perhaps a 'best case scenario' as I said before. But in time for that final battle at Denerim? Hardly.

I think Loghain already had the plans set in motion for that but canceled them after you destroyed the slave operation, that's just my opinion anyway.

I think he expected one final large payment ( like say a few thousand sovereigns ) that never came.

But the slaver didn't have nearly that much money on him.  So that was coming later, too, assuming your belief is correct.

It still doesn't magically make a few thousand swords and sets of armor appear, nor does it make a few thousand men available in one place to be given them, nor does it create the time to have used them.

And why wait until the end, anyway?  He's fighting a civil war AND the Darkspawn AND concerned about the Orlesians on the border.  If he had the money for these weapons/armor/men coming in a little at a time, I'd think he'd be buying/hiring/training them as he went along, since he NEEDS them.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hate is a very useless emotion.

My dark (full of hate towards a lot of things) heart is disappointed. 

Ahem, back to the ongoing discussion.

[Costin_Razvan]

Because he didn't have much choice with it? The slavers can't make money just appear by magic nor do they want to. They have a deal, one they would have honored and one Loghain expected to be honored.

As I said, he probably had everything set in place but once it was clear that he wasn't going to get the money he needed to pay the blacksmiths and troops he cancelled his plans that were already set in motion.

But once things got that dire Orlais was pissed at Ferelden and was content to watch it fall. I don't think Anora approaching the Orlesians and asking for help in the future if things got that bad would have been a mistaken. The troops wouldn't have been waiting at the border indefinitely anymore and there would be a plan in place to have aid if absolutely necessary.

What you are suggesting is for Fereldan to show weakness in front of Celene before they actually even need her aid. That's not a sound political plan there Sarah. By even asking for help if things go bad you already show you have doubts of your country's capability to deal with the Blight without Orlesian aid...and that's like jumping in front of a shark who has it's jaw wide open.

 I am not sure where you got this assumption, but I am not.
Hate is a very useless emotion.  

I concur, but hate can be a useful tool. Make your soldiers hate your enemy so that they will have a purpose for killing him. Make your enemy hate you so that his judgement is clouded.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:32 .

[TJPags]

There simply wasn't time to do this, Costin, no matter what Loghain hoped for.



And Ferelden already asked Orlais for aid - that aid was sitting on the border waiting for permission to continue, remember?

[KnightofPhoenix]

On the issue of Orlesian intervention. At around the time of Ostagar and early on during the war, I would agree with Loghain that it's too soon to allow Orlesians in. It's not clear if this is a Blight and he had plans to get the aid of Mages and Dwarves. However, once those two attempts clearly failed, contemplating Orlesian intervention would have been wise.

HOWEVER, we must not forget the context. It was civil war. If the Orlesian were to come in, whose side are they going to stand with? If they were allowed to come in, don't you think they would have taken advantage of the chaos? Of course, by that time they would not have come in, it would have been a waste of time and resources. But think about it from Loghain's perspective. Assuming he was even considering it and made the Orlesians come in, don't you think the bannorn would use that as ammo against him? Wouldn't it be a dangerous precedent to allow the Orlesians to come in to settle an internal dispute? And that's assuming that the Orlesians would side with the Hero of the River Dane and not with the Bannorn against him (if Celene truly has plans, it's in her interest to eliminate Loghain).

A wise leader is one who takes all options into considerations and Loghain was not doing that. But in the context of civil war, allowing the Orlesians in was not much of an option. Now should he have at least considered Orlesian aid after the civil war was done? Yes and he probably wouldn't have.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:35 .

[Costin_Razvan]

There simply wasn't time to do this, Costin, no matter what Loghain hoped for.

How many days pass from when the Landsmeet ends and the final battle occurs? My best guess is one month at the very least. We know it takes one day for a small party to reach the Circle Tower from Redcliffe, so for an army to reach Denerim from Redcliffe it would take at the very least 2 weeks ( and that's when they are force marching ).

  Now should have at least considered Orlesian aid after the civil war was done? Yes and he probably wouldn't have.

Unless the situation for Loghain would have been at least as bad as it was for the Warden at the end ( 3 to 1 ) then I disagree strongly on calling Orlais for help. But yes, I do agree on everything else you posted.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:36 .

[Sarah1281]

What you are suggesting is for Fereldan to show weakness in front of Celene before they actually even need her aid. That's not a sound political plan there Sarah. By even asking for help if things go bad you already show you have doubts of your country's capability to deal with the Blight without Orlesian aid...and that's like jumping in front of a shark who has it's jaw wide open.

But by NOT having a plan in place, Celene was free to watch Ferelden get devoured by the Blight and get all self-righteous about how she TRIED to help but nobody would let her. Because there wasn't a plan in place and they waited until too late to try and get one, they had to rely on three Wardens and were greatly outnumbered at the battle at Denerim which, if it weren't for Riordan, wouldn't have even been the end of the Blight as the Archdemon wouldn't have stayed still long enough to kill it.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

On the issue of Orlesian intervention. At around the time of Ostagar and early on during the war, I would agree with Loghain that it's too soon to allow Orlesians in. It's not clear if this is a Blight and he had plans to get the aid of Mages and Dwarves. However, once those two attempts clearly failed, contemplating Orlesian intervention would have been wise.

HOWEVER, we must not forget the context. It was civil war. If the Orlesian were to come in, whose side are they going to stand with? If they were allowed to come in, don't you think they would have taken advantage of the chaos? Of course, by that time they would not have come in, it would have been a waste of time and resources. But think about it from Loghain's perspective. Assuming he was even considering it and made the Orlesians come in, don't you think the bannorn would use that as ammo against him? Wouldn't it be a dangerous precedent to allow the Orlesians to come in to settle an internal dispute? And that's assuming that the Orlesians would side with the Hero of the River Dane and not with the Bannorn against him (if Celene truly has plans, it's in her interest to eliminate Loghain).

A wise leader is one who takes all options into considerations and Loghain was not doing that. But in the context of civil war, allowing the Orlesians in was not much of an option. Now should he have at least considered Orlesian aid after the civil war was done? Yes and he probably wouldn't have.

I don't think Anora was suggesting having them aid in the civil war - in that curscene, I'm pretty sure she specifically references fighting the darkspawn.  It would certainly be a DUMB idea to ask ANY foreign troops to help in the civil war, and given the history, doubly so to ask Orlais.

@ Costin - let's assume that time period.  In one month, he needed to make or buy and have shipped in all these weapons and armor, find the men, get them someplace they can be trained, and train them.  Is that feasible?  I very much think not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
I don't think Anora was suggesting having them aid in the civil war - in that curscene, I'm pretty sure she specifically references fighting the darkspawn.  It would certainly be a DUMB idea to ask ANY foreign troops to help in the civil war, and given the history, doubly so to ask Orlais.

But that's the thing. Do you really think if the Orlesians were to come in, that they wouldn't be dragged into the civil war or wouldn't drag themselves in it?

Are the Orlesians too dumb that they would allow themselves to be thrown at the darkspawn and fight them on their own while Loghain fights the bannorn?

The Orlesians can't interfere without active support from the country they are helping. Now, don't you think that the Orlesians would be forced to choose sides in the civil war? Because obviously they are not going to allow themselves to be used to fight the darkspawn singlehandely and then thrown out of the country. 

Now if you were Orlais. Would you side with the man who despises and suspects Orlais and who doesn't need help against the bannorn? Or with the bannorn that are so desperate for aid?

Of course, the Orlesians were not going to come in, it would have been a waste. But if they did come in, it was inevitable that they would be dragged into the civil war and chances are, they would have picked the Bannorn over Loghain.

[Costin_Razvan]

You know what, I won't even bother arguing over logistics in a video game. I go by what Loghain states as the truth of the matter in that situation and that's the absolute truth for me, case closed.

Sarah: Do you really want me to get into the vast tactical mistakes of the Final Battle, cause really I could go on for hours about them.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 octobre 2010 - 02:47 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I don't think Anora was suggesting having them aid in the civil war - in that curscene, I'm pretty sure she specifically references fighting the darkspawn.  It would certainly be a DUMB idea to ask ANY foreign troops to help in the civil war, and given the history, doubly so to ask Orlais.

But that's the thing. Do you really think if the Orlesians were to come in, that they wouldn't be dragged into the civil war or wouldn't drag themselves in it?

Are the Orlesians too dumb that they would allow themselves to be thrown at the darkspawn and fight them on their own while Loghain fights the bannorn?

The Orlesians can't interfere without active support from the country they are helping. Now, don't you think that the Orlesians would be forced to choose sides in the civil war? Because obviously they are not going to allow themselves to be used to fight the darkspawn singlehandely and then thrown out of the country. 

Now if you were Orlais. Would you side with the man who despises and suspects Orlais and who doesn't need help against the bannorn? Or with the bannorn that are so desperate for aid?

Of course, the Orlesians were not going to come in, it would have been a waste. But if they did come in, it was inevitable that they would be dragged into the civil war and chances are, they would have picked the Bannorn over Loghain.

GOod points.

Clearly, it;s the civil war that's the sticking point here.  Of course, if Anora was acting as a ruler, instead of just being a figurehead for Loghain, or if he had just allowed a Landsmeet to decide what to do - and it was his heavy handedness regarding the Bannorn which stirred them up in the first place - the civil war could have been resolved, removing that hurdle to getting help.

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You know what, I won't even bother arguing over logistics in a video game. I go by what Loghain states as the truth of the matter in that situation and that's the absolute truth for me, case closed.

Sarah: Do you really want me to get into the vast tactical mistakes of the Final Battle, cause really I could go on for hours about them.

Well, by that reasoning, your warden is an Orlesian spy.

But hey, go with that.  Your game, your choice.