12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
GOod points.

Clearly, it;s the civil war that's the sticking point here.  Of course, if Anora was acting as a ruler, instead of just being a figurehead for Loghain, or if he had just allowed a Landsmeet to decide what to do - and it was his heavy handedness regarding the Bannorn which stirred them up in the first place - the civil war could have been resolved, removing that hurdle to getting help.

Well, while I do think that Loghain's heavy handed methods were a major reason for the civil war, I don't think it was the only reason. The fact that it's mainland Ferelden vs the Coastlands suggests economic and political reasons and "older grudges". 
It's easy to blame Loghain for the civil war, but my personal experience with civil war is that all sides are equally responsable.

But as I've argued before, had Loghain played it smart, the civil war would probably not have been on the same scale. And the political environement would have been more favorable for Orlesian aid. But, if there was no civil war or if it was smaller, wouldn't Loghain's position also be stronger? So maybe he wouldn't need help (barring the warden taint that he doesn't know about).

But this is speculative and based on too much "what ifs". If I was in Loghain's shoes, I would have allowed the Wardens in without the Orlesian army and if the need for the Orlesians was made clear, I would allow them (extremily relunctantly) in with a quota as to ensure that the majority of the army is clearly still Fereldan. But that's just me.

[Monica21]

I know I'm getting into this late, but what exactly was it Loghain hoped to gain by slavery? From what I've read, nobody can quite make it out. He didn't have enough money or enough time to do anything with that money to create a fighting force. If we can see that, surely Loghain could.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

I know I'm getting into this late, but what exactly was it Loghain hoped to gain by slavery? From what I've read, nobody can quite make it out. He didn't have enough money or enough time to do anything with that money to create a fighting force. If we can see that, surely Loghain could.

Well, we can donate money to the Redcliff mercenaries and that apparently helps out.

I wouldn't go too much into the logistics. It's a game and it makes little to no effort to portray war in a realistic fashion.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

I know I'm getting into this late, but what exactly was it Loghain hoped to gain by slavery? From what I've read, nobody can quite make it out. He didn't have enough money or enough time to do anything with that money to create a fighting force. If we can see that, surely Loghain could.

He was getting money.

But, as you say, what good it was going to do him, especially at that point, is what seems so questionable.

*edit - donating to those party chests doesn't seem to do much, from what I can tell.  I did it my first game, didn't my second (didn't know about the xp bonus, so wanted to see what happened) and saw no difference in numbers or how well anyone fought.  So while it may be a RP thing to say it helps, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in gameplay.

Modifié par TJPags, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Pay mercenaries perhaps? That's what Eamon did.

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

I know I'm getting into this late, but what exactly was it Loghain hoped to gain by slavery? From what I've read, nobody can quite make it out. He didn't have enough money or enough time to do anything with that money to create a fighting force. If we can see that, surely Loghain could.

Caladrius tells you that his gold has been paying for Loghain's troops for quite awhile. He's been fighting the bannorn since practically Ostagar, remember.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

On the issue of Orlesian intervention. At around the time of Ostagar and early on during the war, I would agree with Loghain that it's too soon to allow Orlesians in. It's not clear if this is a Blight and he had plans to get the aid of Mages and Dwarves. However, once those two attempts clearly failed, contemplating Orlesian intervention would have been wise.

 

(husband)

But Loghain's views were not informed by past Blight / Darkspawn history.    It was previously established that all other darkspawn activies that had not been blight's were just small raids.   (Most likely grocery runs or brood mother runs).

If this was not a Blight then it had to be some other phenomenon not yet seen.    So in this case, Loghain seems to be the one who is involved in speculating on areas that are outside his field of expertise.


I would also add his actions against the blight don't really even fit common sense.    The enemy that is nipping at your heals is the one that you first deal with.   

His actions to not fight the Blight remind me of how the Germans in WW2 kept two panzer divisions held in reserve to fight the coming"future Alied landings" which were esssentially bluffs/ feints from intentionally applied campaign of disinformation.   If those divisions were deployed when they were originally asked for they would have caused serious damaged, possibly even turning back the invasion itself.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Now that I think about it, it's also an alternative for taxation. If many people are drafted into the army, that would reduce tax income. And too much taxation is always bad. So slave money might alleviate the situation.

[phaonica]

Yeah, if we say that there is no time for any money or supplies to do any good as far as gathering, training, or restocking troops, then the money and supplies given to your own emissaries in camp would be meaningless as well. (as far as gameplay goes, it doesn't do a lot of good, but lorewise it's supposed to be helpful).



For all we know, Loghain could have had shipments of supplies on their way to Ferelden. And Loghain doesn't have to be just 'creating' new troops, with that equipment, he could be restocking supplies for existing troops.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
(husband)

But Loghain's views were not informed by past Blight / Darkspawn history.    It was previously established that all other darkspawn activies that had not been blight's were just small raids.   (Most likely grocery runs or brood mother runs).

If this was not a Blight then it had to be some other phenomenon not yet seen.    So in this case, Loghain seems to be the one who is involved in speculating on areas that are outside his field of expertise.

So that means he has to allow the Orlesians in without being sure what he is dealing with?

I agree that he should have allowed the Wardens in, without the Orlesians. The problem is, he thinks the Wardens are collaborating with Orlais, which is not a farfetched view considering the Warden's history and present relations with Orlais.

Had the Wardens requested to come in without Orlesians, then maybe Loghain would have been less suspicious. But for the Wardens to mobalise with the Orlesians without any considerations of how sensitive this issue is? That too is a mistake on their part. But not entirely theirs, it's clear Celene wanted to aid Ferelden, for clearly non-altruistic reasons.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:20 .

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...

Yeah, if we say that there is no time for any money or supplies to do any good as far as gathering, training, or restocking troops, then the money and supplies given to your own emissaries in camp would be meaningless as well. (as far as gameplay goes, it doesn't do a lot of good, but lorewise it's supposed to be helpful).

For all we know, Loghain could have had shipments of supplies on their way to Ferelden. And Loghain doesn't have to be just 'creating' new troops, with that equipment, he could be restocking supplies for existing troops.

Yeah, but that still doesn't explain Loghain's comment about the troops being a third the size he expected had you not stopped the slaving. If I interpreted that correctly.

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Yeah, if we say that there is no time for any money or supplies to do any good as far as gathering, training, or restocking troops, then the money and supplies given to your own emissaries in camp would be meaningless as well. (as far as gameplay goes, it doesn't do a lot of good, but lorewise it's supposed to be helpful).

For all we know, Loghain could have had shipments of supplies on their way to Ferelden. And Loghain doesn't have to be just 'creating' new troops, with that equipment, he could be restocking supplies for existing troops.

I think the main issue is Loghain's claim that by stopping the absolute final even-if-you-hadn't-been-there-they-were-still-done shipment of elves and depriving Loghain of the last payment which, as I've already gone into, I feel couldn't have been significantly more than 100 sovereign then you cut the army down to 1/3rd of what it otherwise would have been. Which makes no freaking sense.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
(husband)

But Loghain's views were not informed by past Blight / Darkspawn history.    It was previously established that all other darkspawn activies that had not been blight's were just small raids.   (Most likely grocery runs or brood mother runs).

If this was not a Blight then it had to be some other phenomenon not yet seen.    So in this case, Loghain seems to be the one who is involved in speculating on areas that are outside his field of expertise.

So that means he has to allow the Orlesians in without being sure what he is dealing with?

I agree that he should have allowed the Wardens in, without the Orlesians. The problem is, he thinks the Wardens are collaborating with Orlais, which is not a farfetched view considering the Warden's history and present relations with Orlais.

Had the Wardens requested to come in without Orlesians, then maybe Loghain would have been less suspicious. But for the Wardens to mobalise with the Orlesians without any considerations of how sensitive this issue is? That too is a mistake on their part. But not entirely theirs, it's clear Celene wanted to aid Ferelden, for clearly non-altruistic reasons.  

(husband)

I think it shows that his judgement is faulty.    He sees it as an all or nothing affair.    There is no stated obligation to accept all four Orlesian divisions.   He could have taken less.   He could have asked for other conditons.   like having them under his control, or having the Orlesian commander subordinate to him.   Or if that wouldn't fly could have asked that they be put near the front lines so they would take heavilty losses along with his (As the French did with American troops in WW I).


He however opts for none of it.    Even though the main army is gutted, the darkspawn are rampaging the countryside and the Blight taint is slowly creeping its way up the country....

Modifié par Addai67, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:33 .

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Yeah, if we say that there is no time for any money or supplies to do any good as far as gathering, training, or restocking troops, then the money and supplies given to your own emissaries in camp would be meaningless as well. (as far as gameplay goes, it doesn't do a lot of good, but lorewise it's supposed to be helpful).

For all we know, Loghain could have had shipments of supplies on their way to Ferelden. And Loghain doesn't have to be just 'creating' new troops, with that equipment, he could be restocking supplies for existing troops.

Yeah, but that still doesn't explain Loghain's comment about the troops being a third the size he expected had you not stopped the slaving. If I interpreted that correctly.

I'm inclined to think that this is an issue where lore and gameplay conflict. If Loghain doesn't have time to train and supply troops, then neither do you with your camp emissaries. And if Loghain's payment for the slaves was only in the area of 100 sovereigns, that's because the developers aren't going to dump tens of thousands of soverigns on the player.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I think it shows that his judgement is faulty.    He sees it as an all or nothing affair.    There is no stated obligation to accept all four Orlesian divisions.   He could have taken less.   He could have asked for other conditons.   like having them under his control, or having the Orlesian commander subordinate to him.   Or if that wouldn't fly could have asked that they be put near the front lines so they would take heavilty losses along with his.


He however opts for none of it.    Even though the main army is gutted, the darkspawn are rampaging the countryside and the Blight taint is slowly creeping its way up the country.

Because he percieves it as an invasion and not as the Orlesians asking Loghain to use them and allowing him to set the conditions.
Any country would feel pretty worried if 4 legions were amassing at its borders, especially from a country that already invaded them. When you fear an invasion, the invaders are not going to wait for you to decide what your "obligations" are.

What the Orlesians should have done is send emissaries, ambassadors and declare to Ferelden that Orlais is willing to help (and not through secret letters with that idiot of a king). Not just mobalise 4 legions and amass them at the borders. That's almost equal to a declaration of war (if Egypt now would amass its army in the Sinai, Israel would definitely not like it despite the peace treaty between them).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Yeah, if we say that there is no time for any money or supplies to do any good as far as gathering, training, or restocking troops, then the money and supplies given to your own emissaries in camp would be meaningless as well. (as far as gameplay goes, it doesn't do a lot of good, but lorewise it's supposed to be helpful).

For all we know, Loghain could have had shipments of supplies on their way to Ferelden. And Loghain doesn't have to be just 'creating' new troops, with that equipment, he could be restocking supplies for existing troops.

Yeah, but that still doesn't explain Loghain's comment about the troops being a third the size he expected had you not stopped the slaving. If I interpreted that correctly.

I'm inclined to think that this is an issue where lore and gameplay conflict. If Loghain doesn't have time to train and supply troops, then neither do you with your camp emissaries. And if Loghain's payment for the slaves was only in the area of 100 sovereigns, that's because the developers aren't going to dump tens of thousands of soverigns on the player.

Yeah, I was kind of unwilling to say that, but I think you're right. And I can't help but wonder if the slavery thing was something to make Loghain look extra villianous, and then the developers had to try and explain it away.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I think it shows that his judgement is faulty.    He sees it as an all or nothing affair.    There is no stated obligation to accept all four Orlesian divisions.   He could have taken less.   He could have asked for other conditons.   like having them under his control, or having the Orlesian commander subordinate to him.   Or if that wouldn't fly could have asked that they be put near the front lines so they would take heavilty losses along with his.


He however opts for none of it.    Even though the main army is gutted, the darkspawn are rampaging the countryside and the Blight taint is slowly creeping its way up the country.

Because he percieves it as an invasion and not as the Orlesians asking Loghain to use them and allowing him to set the conditions.
Any country would feel pretty worried if 4 legions were amassing at its borders, especially from a country that already invaded them. When you fear an invasion, the invaders are not going to wait for you to decide what your "obligations" are.

What the Orlesians should have done is send emissaries, ambassadors and declare to Ferelden that Orlais is willing to help (and not through secret letters with that idiot of a king). Not just mobalise 4 legions and amass them at the borders. That's almost equal to a declaration of war (if Egypt now would amass its army in the Sinai, Israel would definitely not like it despite the peace treaty between them).

But that's Loghain's perception and revisionist history, not in game fact,

I know we've gone over this many times before, and I really don't want to rehash it, BUT - Caillan invited the Orlesians.  He was the King, he had that power.  Whether it was smart or not we don't need to argue about.  But he invited them.

it was not a purely Orlesian idea, it was not a putative invasion, it wasn't an attempted sneak attack.  It was an Orlesian force moving into Ferelden at the request of the King of Ferelden, and Loghain knew that - Caillan mentions at the planning meeting that "we can wait for the Orlesians".

Now, Loghain may not have trusted them, may have viewed Caillan's request as stupid, and that's all valid.  But to prtray this as a one-sided attempt by Orlais to invade or take advantage of Ferelden is disingenious at best, misleading and wrong at worst.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@TJPags

Except Cailan eventually accepted that he will fight without the Orlesians (and without Eamon's forces), so why are the Orlesians still at the borders?

Cailan invited them initially, but then he seemed content to fight without them and is only using that to strong arm Loghain to fight a battle he doesn't want to fight.

I won't get again into Orlesian itnentions. It's pretty clear to me that it wasn't Cailan just asking it, it was Celene suggesting it or certainly taking advantage of his stupidity. And yes, she had plans for a "soft invasion", but I won't argue that again.

[Sarah1281]

Cailan decides to not wait for the Orlesians to arrive which seems to imply that they're still supposed to come, they just haven't arrived yet and won't arrive within what he considers to be a reasonable time to wait. If he changed his mind and sent word to them then it wouldn't be a matter of waiting as they would never be coming.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Cailan decides to not wait for the Orlesians to arrive which seems to imply that they're still supposed to come, they just haven't arrived yet and won't arrive within what he considers to be a reasonable time to wait. If he changed his mind and sent word to them then it wouldn't be a matter of waiting as they would never be coming.

Then I am really surprised to see Loghain not taking out the fool way before Ostagar.

In any case, he percieves it as an ivnasion and I don't fault him for it.

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I'm inclined to think that this is an issue where lore and gameplay conflict. If Loghain doesn't have time to train and supply troops, then neither do you with your camp emissaries. And if Loghain's payment for the slaves was only in the area of 100 sovereigns, that's because the developers aren't going to dump tens of thousands of soverigns on the player.

Yeah, I was kind of unwilling to say that, but I think you're right. And I can't help but wonder if the slavery thing was something to make Loghain look extra villianous, and then the developers had to try and explain it away.

I've considered that, myself. That they purposely put the nastiest thing right before the landsmeet, so that if you've been playing the game for a long time, and the other stuff he did wasn't fresh in your memory, that the slavery thing was recent and particularly villianous. I won't say that it wasn't well thought out and that it had to be explained away, but that it perhaps was purposely left vague, or that how it did or didn't work wasn't considered as important as why it happened.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@TJPags

Except Cailan eventually accepted that he will fight without the Orlesians (and without Eamon's forces), so why are the Orlesians still at the borders?

Cailan invited them initially, but then he seemed content to fight without them and is only using that to strong arm Loghain to fight a battle he doesn't want to fight.

I won't get again into Orlesian itnentions. It's pretty clear to me that it wasn't Cailan just asking it, it was Celene suggesting it or certainly taking advantage of his stupidity. And yes, she had plans for a "soft invasion", but I won't argue that again.

I absolutely don't want to argue Celene's intentions or the wisdom of Caillan or whether he asked Celene or she suggested it or whether she planned a "soft invasion".  That's all speculation, and point of view, and we've done it to death.

All I want to clarify is that Caillan was on board with them coming, and while he may have chosen - in the end - to fight without them, we do not know whether he sent that information to the Orlesians.  That, plus the possible Blight and certain large Darkspawn invasion of Ferelden, is certainly reason for them to wait at the border.

The only reason?  Maybe, maybe not, but certainly a valid reason.

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...
I've considered that, myself. That they purposely put the nastiest thing right before the landsmeet, so that if you've been playing the game for a long time, and the other stuff he did wasn't fresh in your memory, that the slavery thing was recent and particularly villianous. I won't say that it wasn't well thought out and that it had to be explained away, but that it perhaps was purposely left vague, or that how it did or didn't work wasn't considered as important as why it happened.

Well, and I think that Loghain does hae a point, especially with regard to how defensible the Alienage and that the elves themselves can't bear weapons. They can't fight because they can't carry weapons and teaching them to fight not only leaves your own people exposed to the plague, but to same violence as the riots before

I won't say that slavery is justified, but I do believe that Loghain would have made the same decision if it had been a human slum.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
All I want to clarify is that Caillan was on board with them coming, and while he may have chosen - in the end - to fight without them, we do not know whether he sent that information to the Orlesians.  That, plus the possible Blight and certain large Darkspawn invasion of Ferelden, is certainly reason for them to wait at the border.

The only reason?  Maybe, maybe not, but certainly a valid reason.

Sure, but Loghain could not have known their intentions. Why would he trust them?
Historically speaking, Nevarra was invaded by Orlais when Orlais was saving it from the blight. Of course Nevarrans were better off than dying. But if it's not yet clear that this is a blight, why risk Orlesian intervention?

When you think your country is being led by a complete imbecile, and a foreign army that just a few decades ago was kicked out of your country is amassing at your country's borders with nothing to stop them from coming in, you would worry too.

Besides, it's not like Loghain sent his army to fight them, that would have been crazy. He simply wanted to secure Ferelden's borders, because nothing would have stopped them from coming in. I don't think this is an unreasonable attitude to have. He might have been factually wrong about an actual military invasion, but when it's so murky and unclear, it's not unreasonable for him to fear this very possible outcome.   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 octobre 2010 - 03:57 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
All I want to clarify is that Caillan was on board with them coming, and while he may have chosen - in the end - to fight without them, we do not know whether he sent that information to the Orlesians.  That, plus the possible Blight and certain large Darkspawn invasion of Ferelden, is certainly reason for them to wait at the border.

The only reason?  Maybe, maybe not, but certainly a valid reason.

Sure, but Loghain could not have known their intentions. Why would he trust them?
Historically speaking, Nevarra was invaded by Orlais when Orlais was saving it from the blight. Of course Nevarrans were better off than dying. But if it's not yet clear that this is a blight, why risk Orlesian intervention?

When you think your country is being led by a complete imbecile, and a foreign army that just a few decades ago was kicked out of your country is amassing at your country's borders with nothing to stop them from coming in, you would worry too.

Besides, it's not like Loghain sent his army to fight them, that would have been crazy. He simply wanted to secure Ferelden's borders, because nothing would have stopped them from coming in. I don't think this is an unreasonable attitude to have. He might have been factually wrong about an actual military invasion, but when it's so murky and unclear, it's not unreasonable for him to fear this very possible outcome.   

Well, this is where we have to agree to disagree.

Caillan may have been a fool, but he was the King, he gave the okay to the Orlesians, Loghain KNEW he gave the ok to them. 

I don't see that as murky.  You do.  Maybe we should leave it at that.