12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
So Caillan was planning to marry Celene . .  .that's a given. 

Got it.
 
Still no invasion.

There are other ways to control a country other than direct military invasion. Whether it was planned or not, the result of such a union would have been the subordination of the weaker country to the stronger one. 

This. It has happened before. The Habsburgs built their empire on that principle, it's even part of their Austrian motto: Let others go to war, you, blessed Austria, marry! (My translation of the original Latin) England nearly lost everything due to its infatuated queen marrying the son of an Emperor. Loghain's quote about peace comes to mind.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

They were not planning a military invasion.

Celene was just planning on marrying Cailan, and winning Fereldan without a military coup.
D Gaider said this was the original plot, and this was shown in RtO with the notes.

Yes, but this is not Word of God - or so it has been explained to me, since it didn't make it into the game.

So all we have is the letters in RtO - and in those, Caillan seems fine with the idea.  I don't remember the exact wording of the letters, but I'm pretty sure it's at least vague as to whose idea it was. 

It's not like Celene kidnapped him, drugged him, and had him sign a marriage contract while under the influence.

And besides - military invasion is exactly what we're talking about here.

It is not. Whether by war or by a vow at the altar, Orlais would swallow Ferelden like a cat would a canary. That's politics. To suggest that Celene's motives were luv or offering to save her country's former slaves....that strikes me as seriously naive. And a king being fine with betraying his (loyal) wife who ruled for him and with betraying his country to its arch enemy doesn't make it any less idiotic and despicable.

Yes, actually, we WERE talking about the fact that Loghain sent troops to guard the border from what he believed was an Orlesian invasion, but which was, in actually, Orlesian troops and wardens responding to a request for aid from the King of Ferelden.  Smart on Caillan's part or not, that's what happened.

Celene didn't offer anything - Caillan asked.  If she saw potential advantages in it, so what?  It STILL doesn't equate her somehow creating the blight and convincing Caillan that Orlesian aid was the only way to stop it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Celene didn't offer anything - Caillan asked.  If she saw potential advantages in it, so what?  It STILL doesn't equate her somehow creating the blight and convincing Caillan that Orlesian aid was the only way to stop it.

And?
Whether the idiot Cailan wanted it or not, he still paved the way for what would have been Orlais reasserting its control. Why should Loghain abide by this, when he doesn't know that this is a blight?

Orlais was taking advantage of Ferelden's plight and Cailan's stupidity. So yes, Loghain had absolutely every reason to fear their involvement.

[Addai]

saruman85 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Speaking of Maric and toolset. Is the Loghain fade dream in there or will Phaonica have to come up with something on her own as she's making the Loghain expansion mod?

Bits of it are in the toolset, I think, including some dialogue.

But she's already made the Fade dream. It's on YouTube somewhere if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT: Here you go. Fantastic piece of work, really gives insight into him.

Aiee, we need a sexy English VA for that Maric scene!  <3  And young Cailan is so sweet.

Well done, phaonica.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Celene didn't offer anything - Caillan asked.  If she saw potential advantages in it, so what?  It STILL doesn't equate her somehow creating the blight and convincing Caillan that Orlesian aid was the only way to stop it.

And?
Whether the idiot Cailan wanted it or not, he still paved the way for what would have been Orlais reasserting its control. Why should Loghain abide by this, when he doesn't know that this is a blight?

Orlais was taking advantage of Ferelden's plight and Cailan's stupidity. So yes, Loghain had absolutely every reason to fear their involvement.

Exactly - CAILLAN paved the way.  Not Orlais.  Not Celene.  CAILLAN.

However, again, we were arguing the merits/validity of an Orlesian invasion.  Caillan's idea to marry Celene, and it's intelligence, does not, in any way, equal an armed invasion.  His fear of that was never born out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Exactly - CAILLAN paved the way.  Not Orlais.  Not Celene.  CAILLAN.

However, again, we were arguing the merits/validity of an Orlesian invasion.  Caillan's idea to marry Celene, and it's intelligence, does not, in any way, equal an armed invasion.  His fear of that was never born out.

And Orlais was going to take advantage of it. Your point? That Orlais is completely innocent because they are taking advantage of an idiot? Celene was clearly pro-active (it  was an idea that both she and Cailan came up with. She the mastermind that killed her way to the throne and Cailan the moron. Yea, who was the mastermind behind this I wonder) and if you want, I can list you reasons as to why she would to exert her influence on Ferelden.

His fear was never born out because Cailan died and Celene's ace in the hole died with him.

But he didn't know that, what he did fear was this:
A- Orlais was not going to send its army with altruistic reasons. They want something. Of course, basic politics. If Ferelden renders itself militarily dependent on Orlais, it would lose its independence and much of its bargaining power and would be forced to succumb to their influence at the very least.
B- If the Orlesians come in. What guarantee does he have that they will not remain after the blight is over? Linked to A. 

Perfectly reasonable concerns. That any person in his right mind would consider. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:33 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Exactly - CAILLAN paved the way.  Not Orlais.  Not Celene.  CAILLAN.

However, again, we were arguing the merits/validity of an Orlesian invasion.  Caillan's idea to marry Celene, and it's intelligence, does not, in any way, equal an armed invasion.  His fear of that was never born out.

And Orlais was going to take advantage of it. Your point? That Orlais is completely innocent because they are taking advantage of an idiot? Celene was clearly pro-active (it  was an idea that both she and Cailan came up with. She the mastermind that killed her way to the throne and Cailan the moron. Yea, who was the mastermind behind this I wonder) and if you want, I can list you reasons as to why she would to exert her influence on Ferelden.

His fear was never born out because Cailan died and Celene's ace in the hole died with him.

But he didn't know that, what he did fear was this:
A- Orlais was not going to send its army with altruistic reasons. They want something. Of course, basic politics. If Ferelden renders itself militarily dependent on Orlais, it would lose its independence and much of its bargaining power and would be forced to succumb to their influence at the very least.
B- If the Orlesians come in. What guarantee does he have that they will not remain after the blight is over? Linked to A. 

Perfectly reasonable concerns. That any person in his right mind would consider. 

My point, since it seems you keep losing it, is simple.

There was no invasion.  Loghain didn't know about the marriage thing until RtO.  So his ONLY concern, at the time of Ostagar and up until that point, was an invasion.  Which never happened.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
There was no invasion.  Loghain didn't know about the marriage thing until RtO.  So his ONLY concern, at the time of Ostagar and up until that point, was an invasion.  Which never happened.

And like I said, any one in his right mind would not like having 4 legions amassing at the borders  and with an idiot of a king who doesn't understand the implications, and would wodner if they would leave after. 

Yes, it never happened. He made a mistake. Which was perfectly understandable in the context he was in. And as it turns out, he was right in the sense Orlais was not in it for altruistic reasons. 

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
There was no invasion.  Loghain didn't know about the marriage thing until RtO.  So his ONLY concern, at the time of Ostagar and up until that point, was an invasion.  Which never happened.

And like I said, any one in his right mind would not like having 4 legions amassing at the borders  and with an idiot of a king who doesn't understand the implications, and would wodner if they would leave after. 

Yes, it never happened. He made a mistake. Which was perfectly understandable in the context he was in. And as it turns out, he was right in the sense Orlais was not in it for altruistic reasons. 

Sorry, but that's opinion, not fact.

[Costin_Razvan]

Excuse me, but are you really that dumb as to suggest that having a massive army ( yes massive, because Loghain only fought 2 at River Dane and that was the biggest battle in the entire Rebellion ) massing at your borders would not lead you to believe you are about to be invaded?

Tell me, what would your reaction be if Mexico massed it's army at the United States border?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Sorry, but that's opinion, not fact.

What is?
That he had every reason to fear Orlais? Considering the distribution of power in the continent and the geopolitical situation, one can strongly believe that Orlais has interests and plans for Ferelden. And while he was mistaken to believe that they were going to get it via an invasion, he was absolutely right that they did want something that would be detrimental to Ferelden.

Furthermore, worrying about a foreign army in your land and whether they would leave or not after they help you against whatever, is not a question of opinion. It's a political reality that must be considered.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:51 .

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Excuse me, but are you really that dumb as to suggest that having a massive army ( yes massive, because Loghain only fought 2 at River Dane and that was the biggest battle in the entire Rebellion ) massing at your borders would not lead you to believe you are about to be invaded?

Tell me, what would your reaction be if Mexico massed it's army at the United States border?

Yea, I pretty much am tremendously dumb.

See, here I was, thinking that the King of Ferelden INVITED those troops into Ferelden, which, you know, would lead me to believe that they were there because they were ASKED to be there.  Since, you know, that's what the game tells us.

Clearly, I am too immensely stupid to understand that this it NOT, actually, what occurred, but rather, that these Orelsian troops just showed up on their own initiative, all primed to invade.

That you for educating me.  After all, if the President of the United States asked 4 divisions of the Mexican Army to come to Washington, of COURSE they'd be invading.

Did you actually play this game?

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Sorry, but that's opinion, not fact.

What is?
That he had every reason to fear Orlais? Considering the distribution of power in the continent and the geopolitical situation, one can strongly believe that Orlais has interests and plans for Ferelden. And while he was mistaken to believe that they were going to get it via an invasion, he was absolutely right that they did want something that would be detrimental to Ferelden.

Furthermore, worrying about a foreign army in your land and whether they would leave or not after they help you against whatever, is not a question of opinion. It's a political reality that must be considered.

The part about Orlais not being there for altruistic reasons.  There is nothing to support that except speculation.
Is it logical speculation?  Sure.  But it's still speculation and opinion.  Not fact.

[mousestalker]

Getting ready for the Landsmeet:

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

See, here I was, thinking that the King of Ferelden INVITED those troops into Ferelden, which, you know, would lead me to believe that they were there because they were ASKED to be there.  Since, you know, that's what the game tells us.

Do you honestly believe that Celene sent her army simply because Cailan asked nicely? Seriously?
You don't think she wanted something in return? Obviously she did and we know that, why else would she marry a Ferelden barbarian? 

Yes, Cailan invited them in. But they have their own reasons to accept the invitation.

[Costin_Razvan]

Clearly, I am too immensely stupid to understand that this it NOT, actually, what occurred, but rather, that these Orelsian troops just showed up on their own initiative, all primed to invade.

What Riordan makes clear is that Cailan invited the Orlesian Wardens, not the Orlesian Chevaliers. It is not mentioned at the War Council and I am certain Loghain would have killed Cailan on the spot if he had done it.

You base your claim that Cailan invited those Legions based on what you GUESS happened. Even if Cailan did indeed invite them I refuse to believe that Loghain knew about it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 octobre 2010 - 01:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
The part about Orlais not being there for altruistic reasons.  There is nothing to support that except speculation.
Is it logical speculation?  Sure.  But it's still speculation and opinion.  Not fact.

Oh please. It's politics. Basic basic politics that a 10 year old can understand.

And yes there is evidence. Why did she want to marry Cailan? Love? Keep in mind that Celene thinks Fereldens are barbarians. Also keep in mind that Celene assassinated her  way to the throne and she knows exactly what she is doing.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

See, here I was, thinking that the King of Ferelden INVITED those troops into Ferelden, which, you know, would lead me to believe that they were there because they were ASKED to be there.  Since, you know, that's what the game tells us.

Do you honestly believe that Celene sent her army simply because Cailan asked nicely? Seriously?
You don't think she wanted something in return? Obviously she did and we know that, why else would she marry a Ferelden barbarian? 

Yes, Cailan invited them in. But they have their own reasons to accept the invitation.

See, you confuse opinion/speculation and fact WAY too much.

What we KNOW is that Caillan asked Orlais for aid.

What you SPECULATE is that Celene wanted something in return other than to stop the Blight before it reached her country.

What you OPINE is that the "something in return" would be disatrous for Ferelden.

There are facts, and there is speculation, and there is opinion.  They are not the same thing.

[Costin_Razvan]

And your proof that Cailan asked the Chevaliers to come? I would VERY much like to see that.

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Clearly, I am too immensely stupid to understand that this it NOT, actually, what occurred, but rather, that these Orelsian troops just showed up on their own initiative, all primed to invade.

What Riordan makes clear is that Cailan invited the Orlesian Wardens, not the Orlesian Chevaliers. It is not mentioned at the War Council and I am certain Loghain would have killed Cailan on the spot if he had done it.

You base your claim that Cailan invited those Legions based on what you GUESS happened. Even if Cailan did indeed invite them I refuse to believe that Loghain knew about it.

Caillan says, at the Ostagar planning session, when Loghain discusses the odds, that they can wait for the Orlesians.  So, yes, they were invited, and yes, Loghain knew about it.  And no, he didn't kill Caillan on the spot.

Odd, ain't it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
There are facts, and there is speculation, and there is opinion.  They are not the same thing.

Ok, let's assume that they are.

What sounds more sensible.
To believe that a country bases its foreign policy on altruism and decides to send its army out of love and charity?
Or to believe that every country acts on self interest, especialy considering how Orlais in particular has very strong incentives to ensure that Ferelden is under its sphere of influence?

The first opinion is stupid and incredibly naive.
The 2nd opinion is sensible and based on actual understanding of basic politics.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:03 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The Orlesian WARDENS, There is no mentions of Chevaliers in what he says. Duncan indicates before hand that he would like to wait for them. ( The Wardens that is, and he does state that specifically ).

So no, what you are trying to prove is your blasted opinion, not a cold hard fact.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

See, here I was, thinking that the King of Ferelden INVITED those troops into Ferelden, which, you know, would lead me to believe that they were there because they were ASKED to be there.  Since, you know, that's what the game tells us.

Do you honestly believe that Celene sent her army simply because Cailan asked nicely? Seriously?
You don't think she wanted something in return? Obviously she did and we know that, why else would she marry a Ferelden barbarian? 

Yes, Cailan invited them in. But they have their own reasons to accept the invitation.

See, you confuse opinion/speculation and fact WAY too much.

What we KNOW is that Caillan asked Orlais for aid.

What you SPECULATE is that Celene wanted something in return other than to stop the Blight before it reached her country.

What you OPINE is that the "something in return" would be disatrous for Ferelden.

There are facts, and there is speculation, and there is opinion.  They are not the same thing.

You know, if you're going to go all 'Well, that's your opinion' and 'You can't prove it! The game doesn't have a cutscene of Celene cackling evilly as she tells one of her men all about how she's going to retake Ferelden one way or another!' then there's very little point in having a discussion. What's the point in arguing about things that have been confirmed in game? People don't go around arguing that Loghain left before he saw the beacon, for instance, or that both Anora and Alistair can be accepted by the Landsmeet alone.

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The Orlesian WARDENS, There is no mentions of Chevaliers in what he says. Duncan indicates before hand that he would like to wait for them. ( The Wardens that is, and he does state that specifically ).

So no, what you are trying to prove is your blasted opinion, not a cold hard fact.

Here you go - the discussion:

Caillain:   "Loghain, my decision is final, I will stand with the Grey Wardens in this assault"
Loghain: "You risk too much, Caillan!  The Darkspawn horde is too dangerous for you to be playing hero on the front lines"
Caillan:  "If that's the case perhaps we should wait for the Orlesian forces to join us after all"
Loghain: "I must repeat my protest to your fool notion that we need the Orlesians to defend ourselves"

So, umm, yea, they say "forces".  Not wardens.  Forces. And since they're discussing the size of the army, do you still want to say they mean Wardens only here?

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
There are facts, and there is speculation, and there is opinion.  They are not the same thing.

Ok, let's assume that they are.

What sounds more sensible.
To believe that a country bases its foreign policy on altruism and decides to send its army out of love and charity?
Or to believe that every country acts on self interest, especialy considering how Orlais in particular has very strong incentives to ensure that Ferelden is under its sphere of influence?

The first opinion is stupid and incredibly naive.
The 2nd opinion is sensible and based on actual understanding of basic politics.

See, you make the same mistake every time here.

I'm not trying to tell you that your opinion and spculation are invalid.  First, I don't care what your opinion is, since I'm not bound by it.  Second, it's your game, play it however you like.  Third, well, everyone has opinions.

I'm trying to point out that you are constantly confusing facts with your opinions and your speculation.  Everything you said just now is OPINION.  I'm not discussing the validity of that.  I'm simply pointing out that it is NOT fact.

And we don't have to assume that fact, opinion, and spculation are 3 different things - they ARE 3 different things.