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[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

See, here I was, thinking that the King of Ferelden INVITED those troops into Ferelden, which, you know, would lead me to believe that they were there because they were ASKED to be there.  Since, you know, that's what the game tells us.

Do you honestly believe that Celene sent her army simply because Cailan asked nicely? Seriously?
You don't think she wanted something in return? Obviously she did and we know that, why else would she marry a Ferelden barbarian? 

Yes, Cailan invited them in. But they have their own reasons to accept the invitation.

See, you confuse opinion/speculation and fact WAY too much.

What we KNOW is that Caillan asked Orlais for aid.

What you SPECULATE is that Celene wanted something in return other than to stop the Blight before it reached her country.

What you OPINE is that the "something in return" would be disatrous for Ferelden.

There are facts, and there is speculation, and there is opinion.  They are not the same thing.

You know, if you're going to go all 'Well, that's your opinion' and 'You can't prove it! The game doesn't have a cutscene of Celene cackling evilly as she tells one of her men all about how she's going to retake Ferelden one way or another!' then there's very little point in having a discussion. What's the point in arguing about things that have been confirmed in game? People don't go around arguing that Loghain left before he saw the beacon, for instance, or that both Anora and Alistair can be accepted by the Landsmeet alone.

Sarah, we're not talking about beacons or Celene cackling evilly or giggling like a silly little girl.

We are arguing a simple point. 

1.  That it is a FACT that the Orlesian troops on the border were there because Caillan asked for aid.
2.  That it is OPINION that Celene had some kind of nefarious plan to do bad things to Ferelden.

We're not - at least, I'm not - arguing the merits of the opinion.  I'm simply trying to get people to accept that it IS opinion, and it is NOT fact.

That's all.

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh? So I am supposed to believe that Cailan had actually invited four Legions into Orlais despite the fact Loghain protests strongly to it and there is uncertainty in what Cailan states with his "after all"?

Don't buy it. Believe what you will, but I still consider what you think as idiotic.

 That it is OPINION that Celene had some kind of nefarious plan to do bad things to Ferelden.

Oh really?  http://social.biowar...3551/blog/9468/

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:22 .

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...

Getting ready for the Landsmeet:

LOL!

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
See, you make the same mistake every time here.

I'm not trying to tell you that your opinion and spculation are invalid.  First, I don't care what your opinion is, since I'm not bound by it.  Second, it's your game, play it however you like.  Third, well, everyone has opinions.

I'm trying to point out that you are constantly confusing facts with your opinions and your speculation.  Everything you said just now is OPINION.  I'm not discussing the validity of that.  I'm simply pointing out that it is NOT fact.

And we don't have to assume that fact, opinion, and spculation are 3 different things - they ARE 3 different things.

I am not confusing facts with informed opinion and speculation. I am saying that in that context, anyone in his right sensible mind would have at least considered the politcal reality around him / her.

Yes, everyone has opinions. Some opinions are too idiotic, like believing countries act on charity and altruism, that they are not worth discussing. And some opinions are actually sensible and can be discussed. 

You can't know all the facts. But there is a difference between sensible and informed speculation based on what you see around you. And idiotic beliefs like "oh I trust the Orlesians will come and save us just for the heck of it because I asked so nicely". One can be discussed, because it's based on the geo-political situation and on the current distribution of power. The other is a naive idea based on nothing (not a singe paradigm in political science literrature would support it) that cannot be discussed.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:28 .

[Sarah1281]

Sarah, we're not talking about beacons or Celene cackling evilly or giggling like a silly little girl.



We are arguing a simple point.



1. That it is a FACT that the Orlesian troops on the border were there because Caillan asked for aid.

2. That it is OPINION that Celene had some kind of nefarious plan to do bad things to Ferelden.



We're not - at least, I'm not - arguing the merits of the opinion. I'm simply trying to get people to accept that it IS opinion, and it is NOT fact.



That's all.

I'm aware of that. My opinion on a completely unrelated matter might be that no matter how you resolve the Landsmeet, there is no heir. This is based on the fact that Anora solo never marries, the Warden has decreased fertility and none with a fellow Warden like Alistair, Alistair also has to deal with decreased fertility, and Anora has been accused of being barren and hasn't had a child in five years. You could point out that until we flash forward to the next generations or a dev comments that we don't KNOW it and yet I can still feel strongly that this will happen if for no other reason than to prevent having to have five different potential heirs and that's not even taking into account what the HN looked like. It's still an opinion but if you tried to argue that Alistair and the HNF willl have fifteen children then I'd probably come down pretty firmly on the 'not going to happen' side. I know it's just an opinion, but it's one I feel has a lot of support for it.



Celene having plans to retake Ferelden or, at the very least, non-altruistic reasons for helping out Ferelden during the Blight is an opinion. It's one that people feel has a lot of backing and so even though it IS an opinion there's not much point saying 'Well, that's your opinion.' That's not much of a discussion. Yes, it is only an opinion but if, as you said, you're not trying to invalidate it based on those terms then why does it really matter if there is a slight possibility that Celene may have suffered head trauma and only wants to help her neighbors?



(And there's no need to tell me that we weren't talking about heirs because I realize that as well.)

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
There are facts, and there is speculation, and there is opinion.  They are not the same thing.

Ok, let's assume that they are.

What sounds more sensible.
To believe that a country bases its foreign policy on altruism and decides to send its army out of love and charity?
Or to believe that every country acts on self interest, especialy considering how Orlais in particular has very strong incentives to ensure that Ferelden is under its sphere of influence?

The first opinion is stupid and incredibly naive.
The 2nd opinion is sensible and based on actual understanding of basic politics.

Subtlety is often lost, especially if the main plot EXPLAINING the pending disaster with Orlais ends up on the cutting room floor. And HINTS are left in, that's awful storytelling for ya. DAO is sometimes subtle and sometimes childishly obvious. Hence the "OMG, Loghain left Cailen (Sic! They care about the fool but never get his name right....) and Duncan to die! I so enjoy killing him in front of his daughter!" outcries and the speculation, maybes, lost plots etc. The game offers way too little time and decisions to understand and get to know Loghain, as well as Anora. For two such major characters, that's an awful oversight. Just like being punished for making "evil" decisions and rewarded (Party members, completing quests etc.) for being a goody goody. I'd have LOVED an option to side with Loghain and tell Alistair to STFU. The Angst and plot possibilities would be......amazing. And realistic.

Modifié par Persephone, 13 octobre 2010 - 02:36 .

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

See, here I was, thinking that the King of Ferelden INVITED those troops into Ferelden, which, you know, would lead me to believe that they were there because they were ASKED to be there.  Since, you know, that's what the game tells us.

Do you honestly believe that Celene sent her army simply because Cailan asked nicely? Seriously?
You don't think she wanted something in return? Obviously she did and we know that, why else would she marry a Ferelden barbarian? 

Yes, Cailan invited them in. But they have their own reasons to accept the invitation.

See, you confuse opinion/speculation and fact WAY too much.

What we KNOW is that Caillan asked Orlais for aid.

What you SPECULATE is that Celene wanted something in return other than to stop the Blight before it reached her country.

What you OPINE is that the "something in return" would be disatrous for Ferelden.

There are facts, and there is speculation, and there is opinion.  They are not the same thing.

You know, if you're going to go all 'Well, that's your opinion' and 'You can't prove it! The game doesn't have a cutscene of Celene cackling evilly as she tells one of her men all about how she's going to retake Ferelden one way or another!' then there's very little point in having a discussion. What's the point in arguing about things that have been confirmed in game? People don't go around arguing that Loghain left before he saw the beacon, for instance, or that both Anora and Alistair can be accepted by the Landsmeet alone.

Sarah, we're not talking about beacons or Celene cackling evilly or giggling like a silly little girl.

We are arguing a simple point. 

1.  That it is a FACT that the Orlesian troops on the border were there because Caillan asked for aid.
2.  That it is OPINION that Celene had some kind of nefarious plan to do bad things to Ferelden.

That's all.

It's more logic than an opinion. It's the only conclusion that makes sense.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Yes, actually, we WERE talking about the fact that Loghain sent troops to guard the border from what he believed was an Orlesian invasion, but which was, in actually, Orlesian troops and wardens responding to a request for aid from the King of Ferelden.  Smart on Caillan's part or not, that's what happened.

I don't believe that this is why Loghain sent troops to the border. It's true that there were four legions massed, but they did not have permission to enter the country once Cailan died. Ferelden troops were sent there to prevent them from simply marching in to help without a proper invitation, not to prevent an invasion.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
See, you make the same mistake every time here.

I'm not trying to tell you that your opinion and spculation are invalid.  First, I don't care what your opinion is, since I'm not bound by it.  Second, it's your game, play it however you like.  Third, well, everyone has opinions.

I'm trying to point out that you are constantly confusing facts with your opinions and your speculation.  Everything you said just now is OPINION.  I'm not discussing the validity of that.  I'm simply pointing out that it is NOT fact.

And we don't have to assume that fact, opinion, and spculation are 3 different things - they ARE 3 different things.

I am not confusing facts with informed opinion and speculation. I am saying that in that context, anyone in his right sensible mind would have at least considered the politcal reality around him / her.

Yes, everyone has opinions. Some opinions are too idiotic, like believing countries act on charity and altruism, that they are not worth discussing. And some opinions are actually sensible and can be discussed. 

You can't know all the facts. But there is a difference between sensible and informed speculation based on what you see around you. And idiotic beliefs like "oh I trust the Orlesians will come and save us just for the heck of it because I asked so nicely". One can be discussed, because it's based on the geo-political situation and on the current distribution of power. The other is a naive idea based on nothing (not a singe paradigm in political science literrature would support it) that cannot be discussed.

See, you want to keep being cute, and tossing out the backhanded insults, go right ahead.

Informed opinion remains opinion.  That is a fact.  I don't care what adjective you want to put in front of it.  Opinion is opinion.

Speculation is just that - speculation.  It remains speculation until proven to be either true or false.  At which time it becomes either fact, or mistake.

Again, and for the last time, I am not arguing about whether your opinion is informed, considered, intellient, naive, idiotic, or any other adjective you may come up with.  Nor do I care what your opinion of my opinion is.  nor do I particularly care what your opinion of Celene's actions are.

I'm interested in facts.  Since you don't seem to be able to separate fact from fiction, I'll just leave you to do as you will.

[KnightofPhoenix]

An army marching in without proper invitation is technically an invasion

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

An army marching in without proper invitation is technically an invasion

Indeed. My point being though, that with Ferelden guarding the border they can't get halfway to Redcliffe and then say, "Oh, what was that? You didn't want us? Well, we're here anyway so we might as well help."

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
See, you make the same mistake every time here.

I'm not trying to tell you that your opinion and spculation are invalid.  First, I don't care what your opinion is, since I'm not bound by it.  Second, it's your game, play it however you like.  Third, well, everyone has opinions.

I'm trying to point out that you are constantly confusing facts with your opinions and your speculation.  Everything you said just now is OPINION.  I'm not discussing the validity of that.  I'm simply pointing out that it is NOT fact.

And we don't have to assume that fact, opinion, and spculation are 3 different things - they ARE 3 different things.

I am not confusing facts with informed opinion and speculation. I am saying that in that context, anyone in his right sensible mind would have at least considered the politcal reality around him / her.

Yes, everyone has opinions. Some opinions are too idiotic, like believing countries act on charity and altruism, that they are not worth discussing. And some opinions are actually sensible and can be discussed. 

You can't know all the facts. But there is a difference between sensible and informed speculation based on what you see around you. And idiotic beliefs like "oh I trust the Orlesians will come and save us just for the heck of it because I asked so nicely". One can be discussed, because it's based on the geo-political situation and on the current distribution of power. The other is a naive idea based on nothing (not a singe paradigm in political science literrature would support it) that cannot be discussed.

See, you want to keep being cute, and tossing out the backhanded insults, go right ahead.

Informed opinion remains opinion.  That is a fact.  I don't care what adjective you want to put in front of it.  Opinion is opinion.

Speculation is just that - speculation.  It remains speculation until proven to be either true or false.  At which time it becomes either fact, or mistake.

Again, and for the last time, I am not arguing about whether your opinion is informed, considered, intellient, naive, idiotic, or any other adjective you may come up with.  Nor do I care what your opinion of my opinion is.  nor do I particularly care what your opinion of Celene's actions are.

I'm interested in facts.  Since you don't seem to be able to separate fact from fiction, I'll just leave you to do as you will.

Historians usually work with opinions. Because sometimes there is no clear cut, subtle as a sledgehammer evidence. The whole "That's just your opinion!" argument is worthless in a debate, IMO.

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh? So I am supposed to believe that Cailan had actually invited four Legions into Orlais despite the fact Loghain protests strongly to it and there is uncertainty in what Cailan states with his "after all"?

Don't buy it. Believe what you will, but I still consider what you think as idiotic.

 That it is OPINION that Celene had some kind of nefarious plan to do bad things to Ferelden.

Oh really?  http://social.biowar...3551/blog/9468/

You want to point me to the prt of that where Gaider says "Celene had a plot to take over Ferelden, have Chevaliers rape every woman, steal every coin and last piece of mud, and kill all the dogs"?

because, you know, HE DIDN'T SAY THAT.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point, is it?

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh? So I am supposed to believe that Cailan had actually invited four Legions into Orlais despite the fact Loghain protests strongly to it and there is uncertainty in what Cailan states with his "after all"?

Don't buy it. Believe what you will, but I still consider what you think as idiotic.

 That it is OPINION that Celene had some kind of nefarious plan to do bad things to Ferelden.

Oh really?  http://social.biowar...3551/blog/9468/

You want to point me to the prt of that where Gaider says "Celene had a plot to take over Ferelden, have Chevaliers rape every woman, steal every coin and last piece of mud, and kill all the dogs"?

because, you know, HE DIDN'T SAY THAT.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point, is it?

And reading between the lines isn't yours, I suppose. Must Gaider hit us with bricks or is subtlety overrated? Politics are usually subtle. And such extremes aren't necessary.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

See, here I was, thinking that the King of Ferelden INVITED those troops into Ferelden, which, you know, would lead me to believe that they were there because they were ASKED to be there.  Since, you know, that's what the game tells us.

Do you honestly believe that Celene sent her army simply because Cailan asked nicely? Seriously?
You don't think she wanted something in return? Obviously she did and we know that, why else would she marry a Ferelden barbarian? 

Yes, Cailan invited them in. But they have their own reasons to accept the invitation.

See, you confuse opinion/speculation and fact WAY too much.

What we KNOW is that Caillan asked Orlais for aid.

What you SPECULATE is that Celene wanted something in return other than to stop the Blight before it reached her country.

What you OPINE is that the "something in return" would be disatrous for Ferelden.

There are facts, and there is speculation, and there is opinion.  They are not the same thing.

You know, if you're going to go all 'Well, that's your opinion' and 'You can't prove it! The game doesn't have a cutscene of Celene cackling evilly as she tells one of her men all about how she's going to retake Ferelden one way or another!' then there's very little point in having a discussion. What's the point in arguing about things that have been confirmed in game? People don't go around arguing that Loghain left before he saw the beacon, for instance, or that both Anora and Alistair can be accepted by the Landsmeet alone.

Sarah, we're not talking about beacons or Celene cackling evilly or giggling like a silly little girl.

We are arguing a simple point. 

1.  That it is a FACT that the Orlesian troops on the border were there because Caillan asked for aid.
2.  That it is OPINION that Celene had some kind of nefarious plan to do bad things to Ferelden.

That's all.

It's more logic than an opinion. It's the only conclusion that makes sense.

You know, opining about the conclusion of something not yet over is . . speculation.  Just saying.

I am NOT, for the last time, trying to argue about what, if anything, Celene planned for Ferelden, nor am I the least interested in arguing whether yours or anyone else's opinion is logical, or anything else.

There was a discussion about Orlesian troops massing on the border for an invasion.  That is not the case.  That is my ONLY point here.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

An army marching in without proper invitation is technically an invasion

What part of Caillan asking the Orlesians for aid makes you think they weren't invited?

And invading armies hardly stop at the border when asked politely to do so.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
I'm interested in facts.

And I am telling you why Loghain can have such opinions. Because it's based on facts, trends and the political reality around him. 

I can right now list reasons as to why Orlais wants to exert its influence. If I can do that, it means Loghain's opinion and speculation, which I share, have merit. Because I can explain how I've reached that conclusion.

If you can do the same as to how did you possibly reach the conclusion that Orlais is altruistic, then we can discuss it.  

If not, then you are blaming Loghain simply for having had a sensible opinion on the situation. Which was the whole point. Why did Loghain think this? Because he has logical reasons to. Why should he have believed that the Orlesians are being altruistic?

[mousestalker]

Coordinating Strategy

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh? So I am supposed to believe that Cailan had actually invited four Legions into Orlais despite the fact Loghain protests strongly to it and there is uncertainty in what Cailan states with his "after all"?

Don't buy it. Believe what you will, but I still consider what you think as idiotic.

 That it is OPINION that Celene had some kind of nefarious plan to do bad things to Ferelden.

Oh really?  http://social.biowar...3551/blog/9468/

You want to point me to the prt of that where Gaider says "Celene had a plot to take over Ferelden, have Chevaliers rape every woman, steal every coin and last piece of mud, and kill all the dogs"?

because, you know, HE DIDN'T SAY THAT.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point, is it?

And reading between the lines isn't yours, I suppose. Must Gaider hit us with bricks or is subtlety overrated? Politics are usually subtle. And such extremes aren't necessary.

Point to the part here:

Question: Was Cailan really planning on leaving Anora for the Empress of Orlais, or was Loghain exaggerating?
DG: You know actually its funny, that was a plot that was originally in Origins, and we couldn't include it. The Empress of Orlais was supposed to have been visiting Denerim during the time of the Blight. We had a whole plot prepared for it, but that's the way development goes--things get cut all the time. So what you saw in Return to Ostagar was sort of a a callback to what was happening there. The plan actually originally was, yes, that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora originally and Loghain discovered what was going on, (in an ominous/ironic/sarcastic kind of tone) but of course that's not why he did what he did--right?--Loghain being the completely reasonable man that he is. (13:25)

Where Gaider says ANYTHING about Celene having some kind of plot for Ferelden please.

However, I agree that my response to Costin was uncalled for, and I apologize for that.

[Monica21]

[Sarah1281]

@mousestalker: Is that Cailan or Maric?

Where Gaider says ANYTHING about Celene having some kind of plot for Ferelden please.

'Reading between the lines' means that we feel it's implied. You can disagree, of course, and while these are both OPINIONS can we please stop wasting time defining what is and is not an opnion and start discussing the validity of them or move on?

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
And invading armies hardly stop at the border when asked politely to do so.

What part of Loghain sending an army to secure the border didn't you get?

Of course we know from metagaming that the Orlesians thought it would be better to let Ferelden die. How could Loghain have known? For all he knows, it was his army that deterred them from coming in.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I'm interested in facts.

And I am telling you why Loghain can have such opinions. Because it's based on facts, trends and the political reality around him. 

I can right now list reasons as to why Orlais wants to exert its influence. If I can do that, it means Loghain's opinion and speculation, which I share, have merit. Because I can explain how I've reached that conclusion.

If you can do the same as to how did you possibly reach the conclusion that Orlais is altruistic, then we can discuss it.  

If not, then you are blaming Loghain simply for having had a sensible opinion on the situation. Which was the whole point. Why did Loghain think this? Because he has logical reasons to. Why should he have believed that the Orlesians are being altruistic?

See, here's where you keep going wrong.

I'm not trying to debate whether you're opinion is right or it's wrong.  I'm not trying to debate whether Orlais was being altruistic or not.  I'm not trying to debate whether you can list reasons for Orlais to want to extend it's influence.

You're not arguing the right thing here.  What we're debating is whether Orlais was invading Ferelden or not.  That's all.

[Sarah1281]

You're not arguing the right thing here. What we're debating is whether Orlais was invading Ferelden or not. That's all.

We know it didn't actually end up invading. That does not mean that it was not a valid fear or even that had some of the people involved acted differently (such as Loghain) and Orlais was allowed in then it wouldn't have become an invasion once the Blight was taken care of.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
And invading armies hardly stop at the border when asked politely to do so.

What part of Loghain sending an army to secure the border didn't you get?

Of course we know from metagaming that the Orlesians thought it would be better to let Ferelden die. How could Loghain have known? For all he knows, it was his army that deterred them from coming in.

They were invited.  Caillan invited them.  Loghain knows that.

Before, people were saying he didn't divide his forces, just sent some men up there to watch the Orlesians.  Now it's an army he sent up there.

This is why I don't want to debate opinions or speculation.

If I invite you into my house, you're not trespassing.  If The President of the United States invites the Mexican army into Texas, it's not an invasion.
And yes, I'm going to ignore the "Orlais wants to leave Ferelden to die" comment.  I don't care about it.