Monica21 wrote...
TJ, if you would humor me, I'm curious to know why you think Celene wanted to marry Cailan and also what you think the Orlesian troops would have done if they had entered Ferelden and helped defeat the Blight.
My apologies if you've already answered this.
First, keep in mind I've never read the books. So I don't have the background in the Orlesian occupation many of you do, so my only knowldge is what I read on here. I'll add that they ARE actually in my house, as my wife bought them, but I have not read them, and have no actual intent to do so, although it's likely I will, eventually, grab them as I run out of things to read. So, with that proviso:
I'm not sure, first, who's idea the marriage was - Celene's or Caillan's. I think that somewhat matters.
I don't doubt, from what I've heard about Celene, that she has ulterior motives. Gaining back what her predecesor lost is a great motivation for doing things. Handing someone larger to your heir than what you had is also a great motivator. Doing either (or both) without bloodshed is, again, a great motivator. If she suggested this, then I'd likely look at her in a darker light. If it was Caillan's, then not so much.
Why? Because the person who comes up with an idea is usually the first one to have formed a plan. If she did, then likely she was planning something darker - a more complete takeover or assimilation, if you will. If Caillan, then she just saw the possible advantage to herself. This is how EVERY deal in the world is made - I suggest something to you because it will benefit me. You agree because you can find a way it will benefit you. Do we both always get exactly and everything we want? No. Usually, we both end up with less than our ideal. How much less does, of course, depend on several things - bargaining power, ability to negotiate, etc.
Did Caillan think that the marriage might bring some benefit to Ferelden? Likely he did. There are benefits that I can see - greater trade opportunities, greater access to resources, safety from a military alliance, new population, new industries, etc. These are all benefits, I think most people would agree.
Did Celene see that this would get her influence in Ferelden, regardless of whose idea it was? Sure. DId she want that? Obviously, or she'd never have suggested it/entertained the idea. Was it a short term plan? No, I don't think it could possibly have been. She may have envisioned one heir for both countries, but that's years in coming. She may have envisioned herself as Caillan's heir - and him meeting with an accident - but that needs to be approved by the Landsmeet, no certainty for her.
Does any of this mean that the influence she seeks is as violent as it was in the first occupation? Not at all. Does it mean it wouldn't be? No, that's not sure either. SImply the fact that she seeks to do this without violence, however, implies to me that maybe she DOESN'T want a hostile takeover. Maybe Ferelden citizens would be treated like Orlesian citizens. Now, is that a great way to be treated? Doesn't seem that way to us, or to many people in Ferelden, or even to some in Orlais. But does CELENE see it as a bad way to live? Does any Orlesian with power think that what they do is wrong? Clearly not, or it would have changed.
So that's what I think the marriage was about - gaining influence in a non-violent way.
Now, the troops. First, I think they would have fought the Darkspawn. If they wanted to do more, or if something else was their primary goal, they wouldn't have sat at the border.
Would they have left without demanding something from Ferelden? Likely not. If I help you, isn't it reasonable for me to ask for something from you? So sure, I expect they may have asked for something - maybe land, maybe money, maybe trade concessions. I doubt they'd have actually said "we want you to give up your independance and let us rape your women". Might there have been some atrocities? Sure. That happens in war, particularly in medieval times.
But then, that might have been Caillan's fault, for not setting the terms of the deal in advance - we don't know exactly what he asked, or what Celene said she'd want in return.
I don't think Celene or Orlais was doing this purely because they feel like helping. They want to keep the Blight and the Darkspawn out of Orlais - and I have a feeling Celene listens to her Wardens more than Loghain did. But do they also want something? Oh, I have no doubt they do. Does it have to be as terrible as invasion, murder, rape, destruction? No, it doesn't.
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