12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

The crows aren't an army, they are an elite organization only a few are part of. The Codex Entry states that any army would take over Antiva if they tried, but that the Crows would assassinate the leader of such an army.

You may think it the ends justify the means, but basing your army on child abuse is just sick.

It's not about the ends justifying the means, because personally I don't really believe in that. My belief is that any kind of politics and war will involve sick and highly unmoral things, regardless of how you take it. I know others wouldn't agree with me, but that's how I feel about it.

Or in a nutshell, I just don't care the particular suffering those children suffer from. Especially when that suffering leads to Antiva being safe from wars.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 octobre 2010 - 09:20 .

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Great chapter as always Addai. Making me wish I could romance him in game.

Alistair would never understand. 

It would have been interesting if they tried this, if you could have gotten him early as originally planned.  But in a lot of situations it would be unrealistic for Loghain to fall for a young whippersnapper he had just met, during a time of war, etc.  So probably not do-able outside the wild world of fanfiction.

Doing my best to make it work. Time will tell.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

 You may think it the ends justify the means, but basing your army on child abuse is just sick.

Child abuse by our standards. I am not sure Spartans thought their extremily strict and vicious training of 6 year old boys (where many do die) to become the "perfect soldiers" was in any way child abuse. It's vicious and very strict training, but it yields results and Zevran will be the first to admit that.

So I am not sure on the terminology here (for me child abuse means abusing a child with no particular reason, though I might be using a different definition here. Very strict training =/= child abuse, for me).
While I am not a fan of the Antivan system, because I do not believe a state based on the whims of assassins can ever amount to anything, I think it's undeniable that the Crows do protect Antiva from external threats, because their methods, as brutal as they are, provide results nonetheless.

In any case, you might still think it's sick and I wouldn't blame you for that. But I think that's missing a big part of the picture. I don't think the majority of Antivans would have to go through this. 

[Persephone]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Simon Templeman is awesome in any role he voices.
Loghain (DA)
Admiral Han Gerrel (ME2)
Dr. Archer (ME2 Overlord DLC)

His VO ability is top notch!

edit: Did any else notice the comparison between:
Han Gerrel/Rael Zorah and  Loghain/Maric if you played both games.

Don't forget one of his greatest roles: Cain in the Legacy Of Cain series. :wub::wub:

[Giggles_Manically]

If you guys are mentioning Sparta their system may have been harsh in their training but, they didnt kill children (there were accidents) they were trying to make super soldiers, and each one was costly and time consuming to produce.

Their system was much more abusive to the Helots than to Spartan citizens.



I dont agree with how the Crows operate, but you cant argue with how effective they are. Any organization that can intimidate an Continent, or the Qunari from attacking must be doing something right.



Also I never got to play the Legacy of Kain games.



That being said I do equate Simon T to Loghain, and that makes ME2 a little strange.

The first time in, I went: Why is Loghain on the Flotilla!, or why is he working for Cerberus know?



Takes me about a split second to remeber its a different universe.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Of course. And to my knowledge, the Crows don't deliberately kill children either.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course. And to my knowledge, the Crows don't deliberately kill children either.

Even modern armies that know what they are doing lose people to accidents, mishaps, or bad luck.

The Naval Base in Halifax has a list of all the people who were killed in training accidents from WW1 on.

Training to fight is dangerous, and people do get hurt doing it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

My main problem with the crows is not necessarily their internal organization. It's rather them being used by princes to kill and fight other princes, which means that Antiva as a nation will not amount to anything. Unless there is some sort of mastermind Prince who manages to take control of all Crow Cells, become king of Antiva, and establish the Crows as his dreaded elites / secret police / special forces.

Huh...that would be awesome actually, if feasible, we don't know much about Antiva.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My main problem with the crows is not necessarily their internal organization. It's rather them being used by princes to kill and fight other princes, which means that Antiva as a nation will not amount to anything. Unless there is some sort of mastermind Prince who manages to take control of all Crow Cells, become king of Antiva, and establish the Crows as his dreaded elites / secret police / special forces.
Huh...that would be awesome actually, if feasible, we don't know much about Antiva.

That would take a lot of money, effort, and blood.

However if some very clever person did that, Antiva would become a super power.
Having the most legendary assassins at your command would give huge amounts of power against other nations.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The thing about relying on orders like this though is of course: Who will guard the guardians? They might end up becoming like the Roman Praetorian Guard.

Eh, if possible, the vast majority of the crows must be purged. Leave two / three cells to compete with one another so they can't form a united front against the king. This would ensure that not one of them becomes too powerful to control.

And all this talk about Antiva is making me wish that DA2 was set there! It has potential. Hopefully DA2 will feature lots of Crows.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 octobre 2010 - 12:39 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The thing about relying on orders like this though is of course: Who will guard the guardians? They might end up becoming like the Roman Praetorian Guard.

Eh, if possible, the vast majority of the crows must be purged. Leave two / three cells to compete with one another so they can't form a united front against the king. This would ensure that not one of them becomes too powerful to control.

And all this talk about Antiva is making me wish that DA2 was set there! It has potential. Hopefully DA2 will feature lots of Crows.

Well if Hawke is bringing change that I think he might be visited by a few.
I wonder if the Chantry would send some, or if they have Templars who can fill that role?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Well if Hawke is bringing change that I think he might be visited by a few.
I wonder if the Chantry would send some, or if they have Templars who can fill that role?

They have the Sentinels / "Templar internal affairs", so I think those could fill that role. Why else would Cassandra be so interested in Hawke?

Speaking of which, does the Chantry ever employ Crows? I am wondering what's the Chantry's official stance on the organisation. And why not send a crow to assassinate the Black Divine? lol That would have been a major blow to moral in the days of Exalted marches on Tevinter.

[Costin_Razvan]

 

Unless there is some sort of mastermind Prince who manages to take control of all Crow Cells, become king of Antiva, and establish the Crows as his dreaded elites / secret police / special forces.

Well Zevran does take control of all the Crow cells ( epilogue if you do US ), and since my Warden is a very close friend to him...well I suppose you can do the math 

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Well if Hawke is bringing change that I think he might be visited by a few.
I wonder if the Chantry would send some, or if they have Templars who can fill that role?

They have the Sentinels / "Templar internal affairs", so I think those could fill that role. Why else would Cassandra be so interested in Hawke?

Speaking of which, does the Chantry ever employ Crows? I am wondering what's the Chantry's official stance on the organisation. And why not send a crow to assassinate the Black Divine? lol That would have been a major blow to moral in the days of Exalted marches on Tevinter.

Trying to bump off religious leaders does not always work though:

[Costin_Razvan]

If you guys are mentioning Sparta their system may have been harsh in their training but, they didnt kill children (there were accidents) they were trying to make super soldiers, and each one was costly and time consuming to produce.

Actually they did kill newborn malformed children. All of them, as part of trying to make all their Spartans super soldiers.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 

Unless there is some sort of mastermind Prince who manages to take control of all Crow Cells, become king of Antiva, and establish the Crows as his dreaded elites / secret police / special forces.

Well Zevran does take control of all the Crow cells ( epilogue if you do US ), and since my Warden is a very close friend to him...well I suppose you can do the math 

Which is meeh. Zevran is smart and capable. But enough to control all crows?

I think it will take him quite some time to do this though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If you guys are mentioning Sparta their system may have been harsh in their training but, they didnt kill children (there were accidents) they were trying to make super soldiers, and each one was costly and time consuming to produce.

Actually they did kill newborn malformed children. All of them, as part of trying to make all their Spartans super soldiers.

Modern historians reject this as mostly a myth. Recent research seems to indicate otherwise and there is little evidence to prove that the Spartans did this.

"The Greek myth that ancient Spartans threw their stunted and sickly newborns off a cliff was not corroborated by archaeological digs in the area, researchers said Monday.

After more than five years of analysis of human remains culled from the pit, also called an apothetes, researchers found only the remains of adolescents and adults between the ages of 18 and 35, Athens Faculty of Medicine Anthropologist Theodoros Pitsios said.

"There were still bones in the area, but none from newborns, according to the samples we took from the bottom of the pit" of the foothills of Mount Taygete near present-day Sparta."It is probably a myth, the ancient sources of this so-called practice were rare, late and imprecise," he added.

Meant to attest to the militaristic character of the ancient Spartan people, moralistic historian Plutarch in particular spread the legend during first century AD.

According to Pitsios, the bones studied to date came from the fifth and sixth centuries BC and come from 46 men, confirming the assertion from ancient sources that the Spartans threw prisoners, traitors or criminals into the pit.

The discoveries shine light on an episode during the second war between Sparta and Messene, a fortified city state independent of Sparta, when Spartans defeated the Messenian hero Aristomenes and his 50 warriors, who were all thrown into the pit, he added."

Infanticide was common throughout Greece and not only Sparta (poverty, famine..etc). But there is little evidence to suggest that Sparta embraced a systematic eugenics program

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:12 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Indeed, Spartans did refuse to admit people into their training, if the child was not good enough they felt.



Still mass infanticide is stupid, they can still do something to help, not just fight. Although the had the helots to do everything.

Which was also stupid.



But this is Loghains thread not, a Spartan/Ancient Greek thread folks.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Indeed, Spartans did refuse to admit people into their training, if the child was not good enough they felt.

Still mass infanticide is stupid, they can still do something to help, not just fight. Although the had the helots to do everything.
Which was also stupid.

I think those unfit to be sent to the agoge were automatically considered hypomeion / inferior.
But the vast vast majority of hypomeiones were thsoe too poor to pay their way into fraternities. I don't think "mass deformation" was a concern, God knows how many other things Sparta had to worry about.

And Sparta's interesting! Up until you start learning about their sexual practises

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:18 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Well ancient sex practices among Greeks is rather off really.

Like the Sacred Bands in Thebes, I believe.



Thats something I did NOT need to know.

[Costin_Razvan]

And Sparta's interesting! Up until you start learning about their sexual practises

Not so different from what Greeks were doing back then...but yeah.  Then again I don't have anything against gay people so yeah.

Modern historians reject this as mostly a myth. Recent research seems to indicate otherwise and there is little evidence to prove that the Spartans did this.

I should point out that the research has been recent, and that there is a debate among historians about it. ( as it is about almost every single thing ).

Infanticide was common throughout Greece and not only Sparta (poverty, famine..etc). But there is little evidence to suggest that Sparta embraced a systematic eugenics program

We have little enough evidence of what went in ancient times as it is though. History as it is today is quite based off a great deal of speculation.

 Well ancient sex practices among Greeks is rather off really.

Like the Sacred Bands in Thebes, I believe. 



Thats something I did NOT need to know.

Well good for you, because there are a great deal of things in our history that we would probably not want to know, but to quote the Scholar from the DN story : "Not liking history doesn't make it any less true!"

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:16 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is meeh. Zevran is smart and capable. But enough to control all crows?

I think it will take him quite some time to do this though.

Sure, why not?  Someone's got to do it, and he's definitely got the skills and nerve.

Soo.... is it left to me to bring the thread back on topic?  What are you coming to, Loghainites?  LOL

[Costin_Razvan]

Eh, no offence but I personally hate how Loghain looks with that mod Addai. I am like Knight is with Morrigan: I can't stand him modded in any way.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is meeh. Zevran is smart and capable. But enough to control all crows?

I think it will take him quite some time to do this though.

Sure, why not?  Someone's got to do it, and he's definitely got the skills and nerve.

Soo.... is it left to me to bring the thread back on topic?  What are you coming to, Loghainites?  LOL

Lovely screenshot. Is it just me or does Loghain seem like a huge burden has been lifted off his shoulders after you recruit him & some times has passed? He is very friendly in the throne room and downright jovial & delightfully badass and at ease in his Awakening cameo. That's the Loghain I love! :wub:

Modifié par Persephone, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:42 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Eh, no offence but I personally hate how Loghain looks with that mod Addai. I am like Knight is with Morrigan: I can't stand him modded in any way.

You prefer him to look like he's been in a bar fight?    All tmp's mod does is take out the purple under his eyes.  I don't use structural mods on any NPCs, but small things like that (or some extra scruff on Alistair) are just normal variations that could happen to any person.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:50 .