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[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't remember. I think it's more organic to hear in conversation that people like various things rather than just reading their codex because the Warden's not going to have access to that and if you're metagaming by reading the codex on them then why not metagame by looking up their gifts?

Well, that was the point of why I asked not to be spoiled about gifts, why I haven't looked in the Wiki and why I have gifts saved to give Loghain that I have no idea if he'll like them or not. And also why I still probably won't give him the Map of Occupied Ferelden. I can't really bring myself to ignore the Codex, though. It's found knowledge that I pick up in my travels just like all the Histories and poetry and notes and songs and all that other stuff that, yeah, my PC technically probably doesn't have time to read, but I read it anyway. Mostly I act on it, but sometimes I don't, like I gave the Rose of Orlais book to Leliana because it was a book of stories about Orlais so I thought she might like it. She didn't, but I didn't reload and give it to Wynne instead. I also have given statues and figurines to Sten and Morrigan even though the Codex says that they're for Alistair. I know it's not absolute monastic RP orthodoxy, but I can't not read the Codex and once the information is read, it's read.

[Addai]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...


Wynne likes wine, that Alistair mostly likes ale but will also give +6 approval for the bottle of wine Dog sometimes finds you, and that Sten will appreciate certain statues as much as Alistair does.

One statue, (spoiler removed), is a Sten gift and not an Alistair gift.  Not sure how you would know that ICly unless you knew something about Qunari culture.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 octobre 2010 - 02:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

Does Sten ever give any indication of his appreciation for paintings outside of his codex entry? It honestly would never have occurred to me that he would like them, and for the longest time I just sold them.

No, I don't think there is any indication outside the codex. But it may have been hinted at in some banter, not sure.

@ Addai.
Precisely. I've seen some countries ban certain maps or not like to talk about certain events.
I think Loghain would want everyone to know that Ferelden was occupied and that it wasn't good for the country and its people.

This reminds me of the Amaranthine codex though, that people don't want to admit that it was the Orlesians who essentially built the city. Occupied people most of the time don't want to admit that the occupation did provide some benefits in retrospect (similar to how people view the Tevinter Imperium, and still use their highways). 

I wonder what Loghain's stance on this is. While I don't think Orlais brought much to Ferelden that would make its occupation worthwhile, Amaranthine is the first thing that comes to mind about positive vestiges (which wasn't done for Ferelden I assume, but for Orlesian influence on waking sea traffic).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He likes maps of the Imperium, Anderfels and even a map showing where rare plants are found in Thedas (influence from his wife?...awww).

What about the Map of Occupied Ferelden that's available as a "gift", I think in the Alienage shop? I don't think it's a found gift, but it's not a Feastday Prank, either, which is what I thought it should be when I saw it. I would never give that to Loghain, even if the game is programmed for him to approve of it. It makes no sense.

IMO he would believe it is something important to remember.  That was my guess on the meaning of his wearing the River Dane armor, too.  He doesn't want to ever forget, or for anyone else to forget, what it was like.

It's a good point, but the River Dane armor is more of a positive reminder to me, as it *used* to be worn by the Orlesian commander, and now it's worn by Loghain, and we all know why.

I don't know. As I said, I can see why he'd have one of those maps, but I can't see a relative stranger (and recent enemy) like the PC giving it to him as a gift. Especially when he's been accusing you of plotting with the Orlesians already. So unless my Mage and Loghain develop a friendship in which the giving of that gift seems appropriate, he's not getting it from her.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 19 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...


Wynne likes wine, that Alistair mostly likes ale but will also give +6 approval for the bottle of wine Dog sometimes finds you, and that Sten will appreciate certain statues as much as Alistair does.

One statue, (spoiler removed), is a Sten gift and not an Alistair gift.  Not sure how you would know that ICly unless you knew something about Qunari culture.

I don't know if I found the exact statue you're talking about but I've given him a couple of statues based purely on guesses that got me +8. There's also one that Morrigan likes.

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain as a geography teacher. That would be awesome.

Loghain as a teacher at a military academy would be even better.

[tool_bot]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain as a geography teacher. That would be awesome.

Loghain as a teacher at a military academy would be even better.

You might as well just write me up now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain as a geography teacher. That would be awesome.

Loghain as a teacher at a military academy would be even better.

Naturally.
I wonder what's his forte? Guerilla warfare or coventional warfare / pitched battles.
Also tactics or strategy?

I think Loghain is good or above average in all of them really.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I see him as a better commander in Guerrilla Warfare then Conventional one, though I also see him as rather skilled in the latter. ( as you do ).



This reminds me of the old discussion about my plans for Fereldan in my FF, or rather the point about the Emperor not sending more then two Legions to deal with the rebels in Fereldan.



I think it should be pointed out that even the Roman Empire at it's height would have viewed the loss of a single legion as catastrophic, while the loss of three stopped any real expansion beyond the Rhine and I doubt Orlais has more then, say, 16 Legions or so.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Roman Legions were big though. We don't really know about Orlesian Legions. But what I find interesting is "Legions of Chevaliers". The way I see it, Chevaliers are elites (equivalent to knights) and cavalry based. So I don't think Orlesian legions are only made of Chevaliers, they are almost certainly made of auxiliary troops, who I would assume form the large majority of each legion.

So if I wouldn't find it improbable that each Orlesian legion has 500-1000 Chevaliers (which is substantial) and at least 1500-2000 auxiliary troops.

Now I am not an expert on military organization in the Middle Ages, at least not European ones (and they were small anyways). But I find it unlikely that Orlesian legions are only or in large part made up of Chevaliers. Orlais doesn't strike me as a cavalry based power.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 03:35 .

[TJPags]

Roman legions were generally between 3000 to 5000 men, depending on the period you're looking at. Support troops, including light auxilieries like skirmishers (sling men, javelins, etc) were included in that.



I'd be very surprised to see ANY organized unit that large comprised mainly of cavalry, though. Cavalry was pretty damn expensive in the middle ages, and in the roman era. Maybe 10% of that would be cavalry, I'd think.



We don't know - or I don't, anyway - population sizes in Orlais, but if we assume a 5000 man legion (large for a standing middle age era-army unit) I'd guess about 500 horse, 1000 to 1500 heavy infantry, 300-500 archers, the rest support and auxilliary troops, light to medium infantry.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The book says Loghain had only 1000 men at River Dane. I don't really think he managed to defeat 10 000 Orlesians (2 Legions at the River Dane). And yes like Costin, I hate those numbers. It makes the River not sound as epic as it should.

And yes true, cavalry is very expensive.So my prievious estimation is wrong. The Chevaliers, if they are indeed cavalry, must form a lower percentage. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 octobre 2010 - 03:44 .

[TJPags]

Then I'd guess it's likely a legion was smaller, say 1500 to 2000 men (3 or 4 to 1 is pretty steep odds, still) with again, maybe 10% horse, 5-10% bows/crossbows, the rest infantry (I'd estimate 25% heavy infantry, the rest mixed light and medium and irregulars/support)

[Costin_Razvan]

Roman Legions were big though. We don't really know about Orlesian Legions. But what I find interesting is "Legions of Chevaliers". The way I see it, Chevaliers are elites (equivalent to knights) and cavalry based. So I don't think Orlesian legions are only made of Chevaliers, they are almost certainly made of auxiliary troops, who I would assume form the large majority of each legion.

The Roman Legions had around 5000 men each ( well Legionnaires, besides Auxiliary troops ), so they weren't that big compared to what I am proposing.



And I wouldn't compare Chevaliers to Knights. There were few Knights, not because of the problems of fielding a large heavy horseman army but due to how hard it was to become one.



I also do not see Chevaliers having a political standing of any sorts, save for able to do whatever they wish to the commoners.



The way I see it is that in Orlais any person can become a Chevalier if they so wish. They get training, weapons, armor, a horse and once their training is complete they get some bonuses in society. That is vastly different to how Knight's worked in the Medieval Era, so I do firmly believe that Orlais has a large force of Chevaliers: Over 30.000 to be exact ( not counting squires ).

So if I wouldn't find it improbable that each Orlesian legion has 500-1000 Chevaliers (which is substantial) and at least 1500-2000 auxiliary troops.



Now I am not an expert on military organization in the Middle Ages, at least not European ones (and they were small anyways). But I find it unlikely that Orlesian legions are only or in large part made up of Chevaliers. Orlais doesn't strike me as a cavalry based power.

In TST, it is said that most powerful warriors of the Empire are the Chevaliers, and that through them Orlais has remained strong.



Regarding numbers. I think each individual Legion is made up of 2.000 Chevaliers, 1.000 Crossbowmen and Light Cavalry and 3.000 Heavy Infantry. Though Orlais only maintains the Chevaliers with a life long military service and other troops are only called when needed.

[alschemid]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wonder how Anora feels about maps.

I can see her as a child colouring one of them just to call dad's attention.

[Persephone]

alschemid wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wonder how Anora feels about maps.

I can see her as a child colouring one of them just to call dad's attention.

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, fanfic idea!!!! 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Strangely enough, Loghain and Alistair like gifts that they could enjoy together. Loghain likes his maps, Alistair, his action figures. Together, they could play Axis and Allies or Risk! Think of the fun they could have together at Christmas if you marry Ali off to Anora and make Loggy do the DR!

[Persephone]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Strangely enough, Loghain and Alistair like gifts that they could enjoy together. Loghain likes his maps, Alistair, his action figures. Together, they could play Axis and Allies or Risk! Think of the fun they could have together at Christmas if you marry Ali off to Anora and make Loggy do the DR!

Now there is an idea!  I could actually see them moving past Ostagar if they were in the same party. Take the deleted dialogue from RTO. Alistair's responses are sarcastic/darkly teasing, yet they lack the despair and utter hatred at the Landsmeet. IMO Bioware dodged out of great writing possibilities there. THAT is a DLC I'd buy ASAP, one that deals with a quest of getting Alistair back and adding banters, interjections and conversation involving Alistair and Loghain. I.E. Loghain telling an obstinate Alistair about Duncan's past.....:innocent:

[CalJones]

I wonder how easy it would be to make a mod where you can keep Alistair and Loghain.

[phaonica]

CalJones wrote...

I wonder how easy it would be to make a mod where you can keep Alistair and Loghain.

The coding for that doesn't look too difficult (and it's super easy to do with a console command). It's just a lot of writing. And I think having them both available for the DR would be a challenge to code and write, too.

[Costin_Razvan]

Speaking of Loghain Phaonica, could you have it so that in your mod he is the one giving the speech before the Final Battle? You could use some of his dialogue from the Landsmeet and his battle cry ( By Maric and the Maker. For Fereldan! )

[phaonica]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Speaking of Loghain Phaonica, could you have it so that in your mod he is the one giving the speech before the Final Battle? You could use some of his dialogue from the Landsmeet and his battle cry ( By Maric and the Maker. For Fereldan! )

I thought about doing that for fun--to take some of his Landsmeet dialog and make it the Final Battle speech (you probably wouldn't want to hear it in both places). Did you just want him to give the speech instead of Anora, if he survives and she's queen?

Modifié par phaonica, 19 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Speaking of Loghain Phaonica, could you have it so that in your mod he is the one giving the speech before the Final Battle? You could use some of his dialogue from the Landsmeet and his battle cry ( By Maric and the Maker. For Fereldan! )

I thought about doing that for fun--to take some of his Landsmeet dialog and make it the Final Battle speech (you probably wouldn't want to hear it in both places). Did you just want him to give the speech instead of Anora, if he survives and she's queen?

I'd be in favor of anything that eliminates the screeching.

[Giggles_Manically]

phaonica wrote...

CalJones wrote...

I wonder how easy it would be to make a mod where you can keep Alistair and Loghain.

The coding for that doesn't look too difficult (and it's super easy to do with a console command). It's just a lot of writing. And I think having them both available for the DR would be a challenge to code and write, too.

Imagine them playing rock paper Scissors to decide who would be the lucky one though.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

I'd be in favor of anything that eliminates the screeching.

Heh. Just doing my part to help Loghain survive the Landsmeet more often.

Really, some of the speech I'm thinking of ("My Lords and Ladies, our land has been lost and won times beyond counting...") probably would sound a little out of place there, but it might be do-able. I'd have to play with it. It's on my List. And probably rather than trying to finish the entire List before releasing, as soon as I have this thing in some decent playable condition, I'll start releasing it in parts.