12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

If Ferelden gets a firm alliance with Nevarra, then it will likely end up fighting Orlais on Nevarra's behalf. And If Orlais is faced with a two front war, then the logical course for them is to strike hard at the weaker of it's enemies first.



If Ferelden's alliance with Nevarra isn't firm, then you're antagonising Orlais for very little, and could easily find yourself facing the Chevaliers alone.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Who said anything about antagonizing Orlais? Ferelden is not in a position to antagonize anyone at the moment. Its alliance with Nevarra would be purely defensive and to act as a deterrent to Orlais and to make Orlais reconsider its position. But Ferelden doesn't have to antagonize it, nor does it have to succumb to its influence.

This is not really a cold war situation, where bi-polarization is axiomatic. Ferelden can have diplomatic ties with all its neighbors without necessarily antagonizing anyone. If Orlais becomes too aggressive on the otherhand, it's not in Nevarra's interests to lose its ally and allow Orlais to secure a foothold on the Waking Sea, so it would strike hard against Orlais. Orlais can't afford to be in this position unless it manages to take out Ferelden really quickly. But the past scenario, I don't see happening. Ferelden is no longer small potatoes that can be taken out in weeks.

So just the risk of a two front war should deter Orlais from having a too aggressive position and it would more likely try to get closer to Ferelden with sweeter deals and a more egalitarian vision of partnership. Ferelden can play those cards well and as such, I see no reason for it to accept falling under Orlesian influence.

Anyways, I gtg, cheers!

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't think it would be wise to form an alliance with Nevarra right off the bat, if I recall it was the Nevarrans who attacked Orlais...so it might not be a good idea until you do some rebuilding.

It's a time bomb waiting to happen in my eyes, and with the Qunari preparing to invade....then things just get worse.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Who said anything about antagonizing Orlais? Ferelden is not in a position to antagonize anyone at the moment. Its alliance with Nevarra would be purely defensive and to act as a deterrent to Orlais and to make Orlais reconsider its position. But Ferelden doesn't have to antagonize it, nor does it have to succumb to its influence.
 

Yeah, what he said.  Ferelden needs to make overtures to both.  But it can do so from a position of strength if it has an alliance.  Orlais overreached, I think Celene realizes it, and she is trying a different way.

I do think it's necessary to acknowledge that Ferelden already IS in Orlais' sphere of influence, however.  Culturally and economically if nothing else.  That's a fact of life, shown by the fact that a lot of the nobility don't seem too bothered by Orlais.  Even Anora speaks in favor of accepting their military aid.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't think it would be wise to form an alliance with Nevarra right off the bat, if I recall it was the Nevarrans who attacked Orlais...so it might not be a good idea until you do some rebuilding.

It's a time bomb waiting to happen in my eyes, and with the Qunari preparing to invade....then things just get worse.

No, it was a case of Orlais entering their territory to help end a Blight and then occupying a portion of it and refusing to leave.  The Nevarrans kicked them out.  So Ferelden and Nevarra have shared history in this regard.

[Costin_Razvan]

No, it was a case of Orlais entering their territory to help end a Blight and then occupying a portion of it and refusing to leave. The Nevarrans kicked them out. So Ferelden and Nevarra have shared history in this regard.

That was another matter. I am speaking of recent history where Nevarra invaded and conquered Orlesian territory. From wiki. I am nerd in knowing every single tiny fact about what goes on. I can tell you all there is to know about what has happened in Thedas based on what is written on the wiki.

 In 8:70 Blessed, a war between Nevarra and Orlais over the control of the western hills around Perendale results in Nevarran victory. However, Orlais proceeds to sow dissent and rebellion among the locals in Perendale, who resent Nevarran rule

 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 octobre 2010 - 07:55 .

[Sarah1281]

Just the part you quoted makes it sound more like it was a disputed claim and not Nevarra invading Orlais.

[Costin_Razvan]

From the same page. Nevarra and Orlais are at war and have been for almost two hundred years. If Fereldans hate Orlais for what they did when Fereldan was conquered, then I think that Nevarrans hate Orlesians even more after so many years of constant war ( despite the fact it was their own aggression in expanding that has led to it )

Also, that specific region is between the two countries, and since we know Nevarra was once conquered by Orlais, then it stands to reason that the territory was part of Orlais.

Nevarra is a nation of Thedas. It was originally one of the larger Free Marches city states, but has aggressively expanded over the last two centuries to become a power to rival Orlais.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 octobre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

From the same page. Nevarra and Orlais are at war and have been for almost two hundred years. If Fereldans hate Orlais for what they did when Fereldan was conquered, then I think that Nevarrans hate Orlesians even more after so many years of constant war ( despite the fact it was their own aggression in expanding that has led to it )

Also, that specific region is between the two countries, and since we know Nevarra was once conquered by Orlais, then it stands to reason that the territory was part of Orlais.

Nevarra is a nation of Thedas. It was originally one of the larger Free Marches city states, but has aggressively expanded over the last two centuries to become a power to rival Orlais.

It sounds like someplace like Alsace, which went back and forth between France and Germany throughout much of history.  But it's hard to say without more details, such as whether the people saw themselves as Orlesian or Nevarran or something else entirely.

But to my mind none of this refutes my point that Ferelden will do well to make an alliance with Nevarra.  Sure Orlais is not going to like it.  They rather made that bed for themselves, however.

[phaonica]

If Ferelden were to reach out to Nevarra in hopes of an alliance, do you suppose that Orlais would take measures to try to prevent the alliance from occuring?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't think it would be wise to form an alliance with Nevarra right off the bat, if I recall it was the Nevarrans who attacked Orlais...so it might not be a good idea until you do some rebuilding.

It's a time bomb waiting to happen in my eyes, and with the Qunari preparing to invade....then things just get worse.

Of course, like I said, it needs to be subtle, lest Orlais starts fearing containement.

Ferelden can and should establish diplomatic ties to both countries, but to both at the same time as to coutnerweight and balance against Orlesian influence. Eventually, an alliance with Nevarra can be established but with defensive overtones and no aggressive or expansionist ambitions. It's simply a deterrent. And if Ferelden is on good terms with both countries, it can even act as a mediator. 

Ferelden can only adopt a more hardline position once it recovers from the blight fully.

And the Qunari ivnasion can be an opportunity for Ferelden to prove that it can be a regional actor, should it intefere in the conflict. But we don't know what will happen.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I do think it's necessary to acknowledge that Ferelden already IS in Orlais' sphere of influence, however.  Culturally and economically if nothing else.  That's a fact of life, shown by the fact that a lot of the nobility don't seem too bothered by Orlais.  Even Anora speaks in favor of accepting their military aid.

Somewhat yes, but Orlais has no influence on Ferelden foreign or domestic policies, so I wouldn't say it's in its sphere of influence in a *political* sense.
But naturally, Orlais has economic and cultural influence that could translate into political influence in the future if Ferelden doesn't do anything to prevent it. So that's why I favor Ferelden focusing on naval commerce and start acquiring new economic partners (its partnership with Orzammar is key imo). And favoring an alliance or at least a rapprochement with Nevarra to counterweight Orlesian influence. That's also why I favor the creation of a university, so that Orlais doesn't hold the monopoly on education and culture. And taht's why I love Anora. 

But *politically*, Orlais has little to no say in Ferelden domestic and most importantly foreign policy. And that's what I mean by sphere of influence.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:03 .

[maxernst]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What is your evidence that no noble believes there's a Blight? It's not like we've had an opportunity to poll every noble in the country. Plus, unlike Ferelden, the Orlesians have a strong Warden tradition, and it might very well be that if the Wardens advised Celene that they believed it to be a blight, she might well believe them. Historically, Celene knows that no single nation has ever successfully fought off a blight by itself, so she has to be prepared to commit the entire strength of Orlais knowing that even that might not be enough to succeed. She has no way of knowing how fast or in what direction the Darkspawn will move. They could be on Orlais borders in a month.
Besides, we have absolutely no idea how big an Orlesian legion actually is, so we have no way of guessing how much of Orlais strength that represents.

You want evidence? Cailan, Howe, Loghain don't believe there is a Blight. Bryce is only going south because the King ordered him to, but there is nothing to suggest he believed it was one.

Teagan and Eamon, who both start the Civil War and try to unite the Bannorn against Loghain also do not believe, or else they wouldn't be so stupid to start a Civil War right there and then. Teagan's reaction at the end says it all. He is very surprised the Archdemon has shown itself.

What evidence do you have to suggest that any nobles believe a Blight is coming before the Landsmeet? I see most of the nobles who you meet before then as not believing it, including Cailan who DOES want to believe it is true.

Cailan, Howe and Loghain make three.  Cousland doesn't actually say he doesn't believe.  I'm not convinced by Teagan and Eamon.  Eamon does NOT start a civil war, he attempts to stop one by calling a Landsmeet.  And even Teagan doesn't actually start a war, he just complains about Loghain's seizure of power.  There's no evidence of him actually leading troops against Loghain.  As far as the surprise, uh...well, you know he's never SEEN an Archdemon before, it's kind of an awesome sight.  Cut scenes can be interpreted in different ways.  To me, in the cutscene with Cailan and Loghain and Ostagar made it so painfully obvious that Loghain was planning to betray Cailan, that I believe my first DA related post concerned how annoying it was that Bioware telegraphed the plot point.  I thought he was Desther, the sequel, only way more obvious.

As I said before, Celene may have more reason to believe because the Orlesians have not traditionally distrusted the Wardens.  They've been there a lot longer and it's not like they have a history of popping up every few years and claiming a Blight is coming.  In any event, she doesn't have to believe in order to prepare for the eventuality.   A prudent leader prepares for worst-case scenarios, so I don't think it's that hard to imagine her mobilizing the troops she has available near the Ferelden border to deal with it. If it turns out to be a false alarm, she sends them home.  If she waits until Ferelden is overwhelmed, it might be too late.  Alistair's argument that you can't go to Orlais for help from other wardens is because it's weeks away, so the implication is (though it mysteriously doesn't play out that way in the game) that Ferelden could be overrun in a matter of weeks.  Besides, you're arguing that she would be considering launching an invasion at the same time as fighting a war with Nevarra, but wouldn't muster troops to prepare for a possible defensive war.  Does that really make sense to you?

[ejoslin]

It has been confirmed that Loghain's actions in Ostegar were not premeditated.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

It has been confirmed that Loghain's actions in Ostegar were not premeditated.

Well, he had planned for the possibility he might have to walk away (link).  He didn't make the final decision until he saw the beacon.  And he had been moving against Cailan in various ways.  So there was some premeditation there, not overtly to kill Cailan though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It has been confirmed that Loghain's actions in Ostegar were not premeditated.

Well, he had planned for the possibility he might have to walk away (link).  He didn't make the final decision until he saw the beacon.  And he had been moving against Cailan in various ways.  So there was some premeditation there, not overtly to kill Cailan though.

I think every general plans an escape route before the battle happens. At least they should. So Loghain doing that is not really uncommon.

The premeditation was unrelated or at best marginally related to the battle itself.

[Jon Jern_]

Hi guys. I like Alistair.

[Sarah1281]

Jon Jern wrote...

Hi guys. I like Alistair.

Hi. You do realize liking Alistair and liking Loghain are not mutually exclusive, right? 

[Jon Jern_]

Yes.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It has been confirmed that Loghain's actions in Ostegar were not premeditated.

Well, he had planned for the possibility he might have to walk away (link).  He didn't make the final decision until he saw the beacon.  And he had been moving against Cailan in various ways.  So there was some premeditation there, not overtly to kill Cailan though.

I think every general plans an escape route before the battle happens. At least they should. So Loghain doing that is not really uncommon.

The premeditation was unrelated or at best marginally related to the battle itself.

Not sure what you mean by tthe last.  But the fact that DG specifically mentions him seeing Cailan in battle and then says "so he planned for an eventuality" means he was at least thinking he might have to abandon ship if Cailan overreached.  It's a little more pointed than a general just doing what he would always do.

[Costin_Razvan]

Besides, you're arguing that she would be considering launching an invasion at the same time as fighting a war with Nevarra, but wouldn't muster troops to prepare for a possible defensive war. Does that really make sense to you?

No, I am arguing for her sending troops in Fereldan to aid Cailan. Marry him after she manipulates the Landsmeet into accepting it, then pulling off a Catherine the Great. Then her troops inside Fereldan can deal with any who would oppose her.

How does that sound to you? I sure as hell would do that if I had been in her shoes. 

As for Eamon and Teagan, maybe you could explain to me why in WH it is shown they are gathering power from the Bannorn to rival that of Denerim? You may refuse to believe that they started the civil war, but I beg to differ.

As for Celene sending troops to the borders. I hope you realize that from her letter she specifically mentions that she is planning to send troops into Fereldan.  Give one solid damned reason why any leader of any country in this entire world would ever send an entire fifth of her armed force to help a country she has not been under the best relations with while she is also at war with another country which has been defeating her armies for the last 200 years. And by reason, spare the idiotic one of helping Fereldan for free.

 It's a little more pointed than a general just doing what he would always d

Not really. A good general always plans for any eventuality.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 21 octobre 2010 - 08:57 .

[Persephone]

Jon Jern wrote...

Hi guys. I like Alistair.

I like Alistair too. And I also like Loghain. Weird, huh?

[Morwen Eledhwen]

FINALLY. . .

At Soldier's Peak, having Mikhael Dryden make a sword worthy of my newest recruit:



I was stunned to discover that he only carried a plain Grey Iron longsword. I mean, the fact that it's plain doesn't surprise me, but allow yourself the luxury of some higher-grade materials, at least, man! Anyway, that's all been taken care of --up til now I've bogarted the Starfang for myself (even if my Dwarf Rogue did look a little silly with it ), but this is an exception I'm happy to make.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 21 octobre 2010 - 10:13 .

[Wulfram]

He has what looks like a red steel sword when he's trying to skewer you in the landsmeet

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

He has what looks like a red steel sword when he's trying to skewer you in the landsmeet

*Snip*

Improved Atmosphere gives him a lovely sword (And it's enchanted too!). But I usually give him Maric's blade for AWWWWWWWs (I'd love to see a REACTION there....) or Topsider's Honor or, sometimes, Starfang. But I usually use Starfang myself.