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[Morwen Eledhwen]

My Mage is an Arcane Warrior so technically she *could* still use the Starfang, but it would go to waste IMO. I have my Spellweaver and that'll do just fine; meanwhile Loghain is doing scary things with the Starfang and Sandal hasn't even had a chance to enchant it yet. I agree that Maric's sword would be a good choice to give him story-wise, when I pick it up; but I haven't been back to Ostagar yet as I was waiting til after I got Loghain. I still don't feel like the time is right to do that yet, though, so it's the Starfang for Loghain for at least a little while longer. I left a LOT of stuff to do until after I'd picked up Loghain.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Wulfram wrote...

He has what looks like a red steel sword when he's trying to skewer you in the landsmeet
*snip*

If you look at the hilt of the sword on his back in my pic, it's the same red-steel-looking one as in your pic (my pic was taken while waiting for the Starfang to be created). However, it's a Grey Iron longsword, 7 damage, no attributes, meh. And if you think of the damage he causes with that thing, imagine what giving him a really nice sword will allow him to do. We're currently sweeping our way through the Deep Roads --the bits I didn't need to cut through for the Orzammar treaty quest-- like hot knives through butter, and half the time whenever we spot an enemy, Loghain has them sliced up and ready to loot before the rest of us even get in range. The old man is fast.  Dog manages to get in a nip or two but that's about it. It's awesome. Kind of plays hell with my "# of kills"/"% of damage" stats though. Big showoff keeps ninja-ing me.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 21 octobre 2010 - 01:45 .

[Persephone]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

He has what looks like a red steel sword when he's trying to skewer you in the landsmeet
*snip*

If you look at the hilt of the sword on his back in my pic, it's the same red-steel-looking one as in your pic (my pic was taken while waiting for the Starfang to be created). However, it's a Grey Iron longsword, 7 damage, no attributes, meh. And if you think of the damage he causes with that thing, imagine what giving him a really nice sword will allow him to do. We're currently sweeping our way through the Deep Roads --the bits I didn't need to cut through for the Orzammar treaty quest-- like hot knives through butter, and half the time whenever we spot an enemy, Loghain has them sliced up and ready to loot before the rest of us even get in range. The old man is fast.  Dog manages to get in a nip or two but that's about it. It's awesome. Kind of plays hell with my "# of kills"/"% of damage" stats though. Big showoff keeps ninja-ing me.

Same happened to my sister. She spared Loghain (I said nothing, I wanted to see her reaction) , eqipped & levelled him and RP wise, she is not missing Alistair one bit, as Loghain works out much better for her.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Persephone wrote...

Same happened to my sister. She spared Loghain (I said nothing, I wanted to see her reaction) , eqipped & levelled him and RP wise, she is not missing Alistair one bit, as Loghain works out much better for her.

The only issue --and it's a tiny one-- that I've had with him so far happened the first time we saw a Darkspawn. Up til that point we had been fighting spiders and Deepstalkers and I hadn't heard much from him in battle besides yells and grunts and the occasional victory cry. But when that first Hurlock popped into view, suddenly I hear this warning growl in my ear:

"Darkspawn. . .be ready. . ."

"No sh!t, Sherlock! It's not like I haven't been slaying hordes of these things for months! Are they dangerous? Really? :blink:" I mean, I was laughing as I thought this, but still. Since then, he's said the same kinds of things that everyone else says on those occasions --the Loghain versions of "Here we go again", "Oh crap, more Darkspawn" or "Die, Darkspawn pigeons!". It was just the tone of voice on that first comment that made me shake my head. I guess you can't entirely take the General out of the man.

Oh, and he came down pretty hard on Leliana in a banter for being Orlesian. Or an Orlesian Fereldan. Or whatever. Orlais was involved, so Loghain wasn't happy.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 21 octobre 2010 - 06:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Not sure what you mean by tthe last.  But the fact that DG specifically mentions him seeing Cailan in battle and then says "so he planned for an eventuality" means he was at least thinking he might have to abandon ship if Cailan overreached.  It's a little more pointed than a general just doing what he would always do.

I meant that poisoning Eamon and allying with Uldred was at best marginally related to Ostagar. They had little to due with the outcome of the battle.

And considering how Cailan was, of course Loghain had to plan for the eventuality. Any general would have. This is not extra-ordinary. Loghain is not the kind to go into a battle and not plan for any eventuality. The likelyhood of Cailan overreacting was very high. So much so that I think eliminating him before the battle would not have been unjustifiable, but he had a soft spot for him apparently.  

[Giggles_Manically]

KoP is correct.



Any general MUST plan an exit strategy if all goes to pot, like well Ostagar.

No matter how good a general is, if they dont have an exit strategy for either a campaign or a battle, they are just plain stupid and naive.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KoP is correct.

Any general MUST plan an exit strategy if all goes to pot, like well Ostagar.
No matter how good a general is, if they dont have an exit strategy for either a campaign or a battle, they are just plain stupid and naive.

fllllfllffff

Okay...  once again.  The question is not whether or not Loghain would have planned for the worst anyway.  Obviously he would.  I'm not an idiot?

However, Gaider tells us that he is specifically planning for letting Cailan stew in his own cookpot.  It's not really something blameworthy, because he does try forward and backward to get Cailan to stand down a bit and he gets nowhere, so it's not as if he didn't try.  I used to think he should have told Cailan from the start "I'm not going to follow you into this," but I've come around to think that is just not Loghain, and that he wanted to hold out as long as he could to help Maric's son, but when push came to shove he cut him loose.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
However, Gaider tells us that he is specifically planning for letting Cailan stew in his own cookpot.

Planned for the possibility of *having* to leave Cailan stew in his own cookpot.

Sorry if it sounds like nit-picking and semantics, it probably is.

But by "pre-meditating", I take it as to mean that he planned to have Cailan go down there. What he did plan for is the possible necessity of retreating even if Cailan is down there contrary to his constant advice.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 octobre 2010 - 03:45 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
However, Gaider tells us that he is specifically planning for letting Cailan stew in his own cookpot.

Planned for the possibility of *having* to leave Cailan stew in his own cookpot.

Sorry if it sounds like nit-picking and semantics, it probably is.

But by "pre-meditating", I take it as to mean that he planned to have Cailan go down there. What he did plan for is the possible necessity of retreating even if Cailan is down there contrary to his constant advice.

It might not mean much to you, because you think it's appropriate that Loghain was moving against Cailan before Ostagar.  To someone who sees that as treason, however, the idea that he also was planning for abandoning ship in Ostagar- even in the hypothetical- looks rather different.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
It might not mean much to you, because you think it's appropriate that Loghain was moving against Cailan before Ostagar.  To someone who sees that as treason, however, the idea that he also was planning for abandoning ship in Ostagar- even in the hypothetical- looks rather different.

But he wasn't moving against Cailan. The fact that he poisonned Eamon so that he can reason with Cailan is evidence that he wasn't planing to get rid of him. I would have found it appropriate if he DID act against Cailan before, but he didn't.

Is it really treason for a general to even *think* about the possibility of having to retreat in advance from a potentially lost battle even if it means abandoning the king? You believe that?
You could I guess. And it goes back to Loghain putting Ferelden above everything, including the king. I personally do not see any person deserving so much loyalty that you can't even consider retreating and leaving them if you really had to.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 octobre 2010 - 05:02 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Which Maric also made him swear to do in TST IIRC.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
It might not mean much to you, because you think it's appropriate that Loghain was moving against Cailan before Ostagar.  To someone who sees that as treason, however, the idea that he also was planning for abandoning ship in Ostagar- even in the hypothetical- looks rather different.

But he wasn't moving against Cailan. The fact that he poisonned Eamon so that he can reason with Cailan is evidence that he wasn't planing to get rid of him. I would have found it appropriate if he DID act against Cailan before, but he didn't.

According to Gaider, he was.  (at least preparing for that eventuality) See the link I posted above.

Is it really treason for a general to even *think* about the possibility of having to retreat in advance from a potentially lost battle even if it means abandoning the king? You believe that?

I didn't say that.  I said if you see it as treason that he was making plans for taking Cailan out of power, his planning for the possibility of an abrupt pull-out at Ostagar can look nefarious depending on the interpretation.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 octobre 2010 - 05:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Is it really treason for a general to even *think* about the possibility of having to retreat in advance from a potentially lost battle even if it means abandoning the king? You believe that?

I didn't say that.  I said if you see it as treason that he was making plans for taking Cailan out of power, his planning for the possibility of an abrupt pull-out at Ostagar can look nefarious depending on the interpretation.

That is NOT what Gaider said.

" It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth"

This does not mean, at all, that Loghain necessarily wanted to take him out of power. Nor does it mean he is moving *against* him. He was trying to settle the disagreements between them. Could he have moved against him if Cailan proved hopeless? Yes, possibly. But Loghain was planing to reason with him first.

In-game you can certainly believe that. But it's not true.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 octobre 2010 - 05:19 .

[Addai]

Now who's playing semantics? Undercutting Cailan's allies is moving against him. Or do you think that if he lost that verbal argument, he would just roll over and welcome Orlais on in?



Maric made him promise that he would not put one man over Ferelden, but the context of that was Loghain and Rowan leaving their troops in the middle of battle to save him. I doubt that Maric envisioned such scenarios.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Now who's playing semantics? Undercutting Cailan's allies is moving against him. Or do you think that if he lost that verbal argument, he would just roll over and welcome Orlais on in?

No, it's for confronting him, which is not the same. Undercutting his allies means Cailan can be reasonned with, without "bad influences".
Now yes, if Cailan couldn't be swayed, Loghain would have moved against him. But to suggest that he was very much considering taking Cailan out of power is misleading. He is focused more on convincing him and the actions he did before Ostagar are for this reason, not to take Cailan out of power, which would have been a last resort.

Addai67 wrote...
Maric made him promise that he would not put one man over Ferelden, but the context of that was Loghain and Rowan leaving their troops in the middle of battle to save him. I doubt that Maric envisioned such scenarios.

Whether he did or not is irrelevent, it's the meaning of what he said that mattered. Risking half of Ferelden's army in a very risky maneuvre during what was very likely to have been a lost battle, solely to save the king, is putting the king above Ferelden.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 octobre 2010 - 05:31 .

[CalJones]

I suppose you can argue that it wouldn't have been just Cailan, but all the soldiers who were with him. However, I'm not sure how many actual soldiers were with him vs just wardens. We all know Loghain wasn't going to bust a nut to save some dodgy Orlesian order who tried to kidnap Maric. 

[Costin_Razvan]

 Alright, I finished my one shot about the Battle of River Dane, it is going to be up on FF as soon as I get it proofread.
But here is a small expert.

"Shouts arose from the Orlesians, only to be silenced shortly after. Rowan still stood there, understanding the need for Loghain's actions but not able to agree with them.

She watched Loghain as he gave orders to his men, the armor seemingly glowing on him and she realized
that this is who he was meant to be: The Shield of Fereldan, the commoner turned General, the one who would defend Fereldan no matter the price.

The Hero of River Dane."

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I suppose you can argue that it wouldn't have been just Cailan, but all the soldiers who were with him. However, I'm not sure how many actual soldiers were with him vs just wardens. We all know Loghain wasn't going to bust a nut to save some dodgy Orlesian order who tried to kidnap Maric. 

I highly doubt that all the ranks of common soldiers you see in the cutscene are Wardens.

[CalJones]

Why wouldn't Rowan agree with them - or is that covered in the rest of the story?



Got back from work early today and switched on the TV. Happened that it was tuned to a channel that was showing a Charmed rerun. Not a show I've ever watched, but so happened that that particular episode featured one Simon T as the Angel of Death. Sat and watched the whole thing, just because. Odd hearing Loghain's voice come out of a blond fellow, heh.

[Costin_Razvan]

You know, blaming Loghain who did not want to fight there for those deaths and ignoring that Cailan was the one who wanted to fight is just well...

 Why wouldn't Rowan agree with them - or is that covered in the rest of the story?

What do you think Loghain did to the Orlesian prisoners after the battle?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 octobre 2010 - 08:36 .

[CalJones]

I wouldn't have thought he'd leave prisoners.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
What do you think Loghain did to the Orlesian prisoners after the battle?

I would think parading them in Denerim or liberated cities and then using them as a pressure tool against Orlais to be more useful then killing them all.

[Addai]

This is only fanfic'ly Loghain-related, but for those of you reading my story here is Schratty's beautiful rendering of Ellie.  I'm stoked. 

[Sarah1281]

Oh, that's really pretty!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ooooh

And since I had midterms, I couldn't read your story Addai. You just reminded me to go read it!