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[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

@Morwen Eledhwen: I didn't feel Loghain was really out of character. Strictly speaking, you are wasting time by going to Ostagar. Still, if you feel that documents in a chest that you have the key for and the darkspawn won't be snooping around in and no one else would possibly be able to get to and break open the chest until the Blight is over is worth it then that's one thing. Finding all of Cailan's armor that the darkspawn stole and then dealing with Cailan's body wastes even more time and post-Landsmeet time is really running out.

True, but then he should have spoken up when we went back to the Deep Roads, or the Brecilian Forest, or up to the Mountaintop to kill "Andraste", or any of the other places I dragged him. And he never mentioned it being a timing thing or not relevant to ending the Blight as Sten does in Haven --just that he didn't want to be there and didn't think we should be there, full stop.

Why ELRIC may not be to blame for the battle failing, Cailan was the one who insisted on the battle plan and Loghain - right or wrong and for whatever his reasons were - was the one who came up with the plan and didn't follow through. That puts the two of them as the potential responsible parties and Loghain, convinced that he was right on the matter, blames Cailan. Cailan getting himself killed also caused the civil war and left Ferelden in such a horrible position. Not to mention that as calm as he can be elsewhere, he's being brought back to the very same spot where everything fell apart which was probably one of his worst moments in years. Expecting him to be calm and rational about it is unreasonable, I think.

I said I understood his anger towards Cailan and that I would even have understood it if the whole tone of his rants were directed at Cailan as his remarks on finding the correspondence were. What he was doing at Ostagar, which he had never done before, was being just as vitriolic towards everyone in the area --which at that moment was my Mage and the dog-- regardless of their level of responsibility. It makes much more sense to me now, though, since CalJones has said  that all of Loghain's dialogue which he seemingly directs at the party in general, or at no one, was actually written as responses to remonstrances, moralizings and guilt-trippings from Wynne. That makes total sense. I was just experiencing the scene minus a key character and half the dialogue.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 24 octobre 2010 - 03:30 .

[TJPags]

@Sarah:

Ummmm, okay.

Wow.

I thought that was sort of what you meant . . .and I was going to discuss it . . .but after that expansion, I really just can't. I'm not here to troll, but to have rational discussions. And I see nothing to discuss rationally about what you just said.

Thanks, though.

Modifié par TJPags, 24 octobre 2010 - 03:32 .

[Sarah1281]

True, but then he should have spoken up when we went back to the Deep Roads, or the Brecilian Forest, or up to the Mountaintop to kill "Andraste", or any of the other places I dragged him. And he never mentioned it being a timing thing, just that he didn't want to be there and didn't think we should be there, full stop.

If you do RtO with Alistair in your party and then go back to Ostagar with Loghain does he complain? I don't believe he does though I've never tried it. I think it's more of a game mechanics thing. You've already beaten the other areas and so it doesn't really register it as you're going back. RtO and Soldier's Keep are parts you can complete after the Landsmeet and Loghain, if he's there to do them, has dialogue for it so he can voice his unhappiness for wasting time.



And yeah, Wynne's pretty vicious. And stupid. Did you know she thinks that Loghain's interpretation of Cailan's plan (which we now know to be true) was fine because 'at least it would mean peace'?

[Morwen Eledhwen]

TJPags wrote...

Are there dialogue points with him? Not party banter, but PC and Loghain dialogue? That MIGHT entice me to do it, just for the experience.

The only dialogue points with him occur when you have to decide what to do with Cailan's body. Otherwise he talks to Wynne if she's there, or else he just shouts at no one in particular. Dog tried whining at him a couple of times, but that was about it.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

@Sarah:

Ummmm, okay.

Wow.

I thought that was sort of what you meant . . .and I was going to discuss it . . .but after that expansion, I really just can't. I'm not here to troll, but to have rational discussions. And I see nothing to discuss rationally about what you just said.

Thanks, though.

How was what I said not rational? 

The civil war was apparently sparked by Loghain taking over the regency without consulting anyone. Had Cailan not died then this would not have happened. While it's unfair to blame everything that happened as a result of Cailan's death on Cailan (WHICH I'M NOT DOING), his death was the spark. I feel that Loghain (as one of the two people most responsible for Ostagar) would blame Cailan for insisting on being on the front lines and thus dying which would explain why he's so vitriolic when he comes back to Ostagar. I'm not saying that Loghain is right to blame Cailan for everything though I don't feel Cailan had any place on the front lines.

[TJPags]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Are there dialogue points with him? Not party banter, but PC and Loghain dialogue? That MIGHT entice me to do it, just for the experience.

The only dialogue points with him occur when you have to decide what to do with Cailan's body. Otherwise he talks to Wynne if she's there, or else he just shouts at no one in particular. Dog tried whining at him a couple of times, but that was about it.

Ahhhh, thanks.

In that case, to quote the Red Queen (of Alice in Wonderland) . . .OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!!!!!!!

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sarah1281 wrote...
If you do RtO with Alistair in your party and then go back to Ostagar with Loghain does he complain? I don't believe he does though I've never tried it. I think it's more of a game mechanics thing. You've already beaten the other areas and so it doesn't really register it as you're going back.

I suspect you're right but even I don't see the point of bringing Loghain back to Ostagar if I've already been there with Alistair, collected the loot, and disposed of Cailan's body. The other places I dragged him, at least there were sidequests to complete or a Dragon (and her crazy keepers) to kill. And yes, I understand that in "real life" that would have been weeks and weeks of running around not ending the Blight, while Anora and Eamon were probably getting ready to kill each other --and us-- in Redcliffe. But I wanted to spend as much time as possible in this playthrough with Loghain as a companion so I left a lot of stuff undone before Landsmeet so that we could go back and do it. *shrugs* I figure if I can leave a devastated Redcliffe in the hands of a demon and go traipsing off to the Circle Tower, spend however long it takes to liberate that place (including all that time in the Fade), then trudge back to Redcliffe to find everything exactly as it was when I left, well, the world and the Blight can indulge me this time too. 

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 24 octobre 2010 - 03:52 .

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

@Sarah:

Ummmm, okay.

Wow.

I thought that was sort of what you meant . . .and I was going to discuss it . . .but after that expansion, I really just can't. I'm not here to troll, but to have rational discussions. And I see nothing to discuss rationally about what you just said.

Thanks, though.

How was what I said not rational? 

The civil war was apparently sparked by Loghain taking over the regency without consulting anyone. Had Cailan not died then this would not have happened. While it's unfair to blame everything that happened as a result of Cailan's death on Cailan (WHICH I'M NOT DOING), his death was the spark. I feel that Loghain (as one of the two people most responsible for Ostagar) would blame Cailan for insisting on being on the front lines and thus dying which would explain why he's so vitriolic when he comes back to Ostagar. I'm not saying that Loghain is right to blame Cailan for everything though I don't feel Cailan had any place on the front lines.

Seems I owe you an apology, then.

I read your previous post as seriously blaming Cailan for the civil war, loss of the army, etc.  Viewing it as the spark, or the trigger for allowing it, yes, that I can see.  But to actually blame the dead guy for what happened after his death . . . . well, that seems ludicous to me.

So it seems you're not irrational, I just read you wrong.

Sorry.

[DragonRacer13]

Sarah1281 wrote...

True, but then he should have spoken up when we went back to the Deep Roads, or the Brecilian Forest, or up to the Mountaintop to kill "Andraste", or any of the other places I dragged him. And he never mentioned it being a timing thing, just that he didn't want to be there and didn't think we should be there, full stop.

If you do RtO with Alistair in your party and then go back to Ostagar with Loghain does he complain? I don't believe he does though I've never tried it. I think it's more of a game mechanics thing. You've already beaten the other areas and so it doesn't really register it as you're going back. RtO and Soldier's Keep are parts you can complete after the Landsmeet and Loghain, if he's there to do them, has dialogue for it so he can voice his unhappiness for wasting time.

And yeah, Wynne's pretty vicious. And stupid. Did you know she thinks that Loghain's interpretation of Cailan's plan (which we now know to be true) was fine because 'at least it would mean peace'?

Didn't recall him voicing a negative opinion about doing Soldier's Peak? At the end he says it's a very good, defensible fortress for future use and gives a proverbial thumbs up to the Warden.

[DragonRacer13]

TJPags wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Are there dialogue points with him? Not party banter, but PC and Loghain dialogue? That MIGHT entice me to do it, just for the experience.

The only dialogue points with him occur when you have to decide what to do with Cailan's body. Otherwise he talks to Wynne if she's there, or else he just shouts at no one in particular. Dog tried whining at him a couple of times, but that was about it.

Ahhhh, thanks.

In that case, to quote the Red Queen (of Alice in Wonderland) . . .OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!!!!!!!

For some reason, you remind me of "Heads Will Roll" by the Yeah Yeah Yeahs

Heads Will Roll

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Are there dialogue points with him? Not party banter, but PC and Loghain dialogue? That MIGHT entice me to do it, just for the experience.

The only dialogue points with him occur when you have to decide what to do with Cailan's body. Otherwise he talks to Wynne if she's there, or else he just shouts at no one in particular. Dog tried whining at him a couple of times, but that was about it.

Ahhhh, thanks.

In that case, to quote the Red Queen (of Alice in Wonderland) . . .OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!!!!!!!

Bloodthirsty, aren't ya? He has some lovely, intense dialogue that isn't side-quest-related. (I.E. at Castle Redcliffe after Riordan spills the beans) Not to mention the post coronation dialogue (Esp. funny and moving if you marry Anora) and his kick ass Awakening cameo.

[Sarah1281]

Didn't recall him voicing a negative opinion about doing Soldier's Peak? At the end he says it's a very good, defensible fortress for future use and gives a proverbial thumbs up to the Warden.

I don't think he does, I was just mentioning that as that was a DLC and could be completely done after the Landsmeet, that was one of the only places he's voiced in.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

This extremely low-def "screenshot" pretty much sums up my PC's relationship with Loghain at this point:



As you can see --even with such poor picture quality-- my normally unmeltable Mage is clearly gazing at Loghain with something approaching adoration. Loghain, on the other hand, could be staring smokily back into her eyes --or he could just as easily be studying something on the opposite wall and waiting for my Mage to move aside so he can investigate it more closely.

[Persephone]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

This extremely low-def "screenshot" pretty much sums up my PC's relationship with Loghain at this point:



As you can see --even with such poor picture quality-- my normally unmeltable Mage is clearly gazing at Loghain with something approaching adoration. Loghain, on the other hand, could be staring smokily back into her eyes --or he could just as easily be studying something on the opposite wall and waiting for my Mage to move aside so he can investigate it more closely.

Very lovely screenshot, that!  I'll have to post a few screenshot of my Fanfiction PC kissing him........AHEM....

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Didn't recall him voicing a negative opinion about doing Soldier's Peak? At the end he says it's a very good, defensible fortress for future use and gives a proverbial thumbs up to the Warden.

I don't think he does, I was just mentioning that as that was a DLC and could be completely done after the Landsmeet, that was one of the only places he's voiced in.

I couldn't wait until after Landsmeet to do Soldier's Peak. I need that Party Chest. I'm a horrible pack rat.

[Persephone]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Didn't recall him voicing a negative opinion about doing Soldier's Peak? At the end he says it's a very good, defensible fortress for future use and gives a proverbial thumbs up to the Warden.

I don't think he does, I was just mentioning that as that was a DLC and could be completely done after the Landsmeet, that was one of the only places he's voiced in.

I couldn't wait until after Landsmeet to do Soldier's Peak. I need that Party Chest. I'm a horrible pack rat.

*Cough* Party Camp Chest Mod *Coughs some more* 

[phaonica]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Loghain, on the other hand, could be staring smokily back into her eyes --or he could just as easily be studying something on the opposite wall and waiting for my Mage to move aside so he can investigate it more closely.

Haha! That's a good illustration of how my character felt when Loghain was around.
"Why won't you notice meeee?"

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Persephone wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

I couldn't wait until after Landsmeet to do Soldier's Peak. I need that Party Chest. I'm a horrible pack rat.

*Cough* Party Camp Chest Mod *Coughs some more* 

I play on the PS3 --no mods.

Which means the "screenshot" above was not from a mod either --just patience and careful positioning in the Quaint Hovel. Loghain had just skewered Gaxkang the Unbound seconds after Gaxkang had KOed my Mage. She does not often find herself in the position of needing to be rescued or avenged, but she doesn't seem to mind if Loghain's the one who does it.

Look --she's blushing! :happy:

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 24 octobre 2010 - 04:59 .

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Are there dialogue points with him? Not party banter, but PC and Loghain dialogue? That MIGHT entice me to do it, just for the experience.

The only dialogue points with him occur when you have to decide what to do with Cailan's body. Otherwise he talks to Wynne if she's there, or else he just shouts at no one in particular. Dog tried whining at him a couple of times, but that was about it.

Ahhhh, thanks.

In that case, to quote the Red Queen (of Alice in Wonderland) . . .OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!!!!!!!

I can't remember, TJ, but have you ever spared Loghain?

[phaonica]

I thought that Loghain did a lot of griping in RtO, too, but then I brought him there for metagame reasons (specifically to hear their griping), and I couldn't think of a reason anyone (not my PC, Loghain, or Alistair) would want to go back there. I also specifically remember a point in RtO when I wanted to turn to Loghain and say, "Don't be an ass," the same way the game let me confront Morrigan and tell her to "stop being a b!tch". But alas, the option was not there.

[phaonica]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
Look --she's blushing! :happy:

Awww.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Are there dialogue points with him? Not party banter, but PC and Loghain dialogue? That MIGHT entice me to do it, just for the experience.

The only dialogue points with him occur when you have to decide what to do with Cailan's body. Otherwise he talks to Wynne if she's there, or else he just shouts at no one in particular. Dog tried whining at him a couple of times, but that was about it.

Ahhhh, thanks.

In that case, to quote the Red Queen (of Alice in Wonderland) . . .OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!!!!!!!

I can't remember, TJ, but have you ever spared Loghain?

I did, but not to "spare him" per se.  My DE REALLY couldn't stand Alistair, for a wide variety of reasons (I don't like him much in general, but try to play each character slightly differently, so most don't HATE him), so I specifically went for the "Alistair winds up as a drunk" ending, which of course requires sparing Loghain.

So I did it once, I did explore dialogue with him in camp, travelled with him past a few banter points with different party combos just to experience some of that, etc.

I might  do it again, just to save RtO for the end and run through it with him, but that's far from a given.

[TJPags]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

I couldn't wait until after Landsmeet to do Soldier's Peak. I need that Party Chest. I'm a horrible pack rat.

*Cough* Party Camp Chest Mod *Coughs some more* 

I play on the PS3 --no mods.

Which means the "screenshot" above was not from a mod either --just patience and careful positioning in the Dirty Hovel. Loghain had just skewered Gaxkang the Unbound seconds after Gaxkang had KOed my Mage. She does not often find herself in the position of needing to be rescued or avenged, but she doesn't seem to mind if Loghain's the one who does it.

Look --she's blushing! :happy:

Anyone else think he's checking out her cleavage rather than moving in for a kiss?

Not that there's anything wrong with that. 

[Morwen Eledhwen]

phaonica wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
Look --she's blushing! :happy:
*snip*

Awww.

I know --I'm desperately trying to coax that picture into a better quality but there's only so much I can do. Normally I would never post something that blurry but how could I not? Of course, it's totally not what it looks like --Loghain is simply shrugging the way Loghain does when you let him stand around for long enough. But because of how they're positioned and the timing of the shot --not to mention the blush-- it looks as though I've caught him and my Mage in an intimate moment.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 24 octobre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
I did, but not to "spare him" per se.  My DE REALLY couldn't stand Alistair, for a wide variety of reasons (I don't like him much in general, but try to play each character slightly differently, so most don't HATE him), so I specifically went for the "Alistair winds up as a drunk" ending, which of course requires sparing Loghain.

So I did it once, I did explore dialogue with him in camp, travelled with him past a few banter points with different party combos just to experience some of that, etc.

I might  do it again, just to save RtO for the end and run through it with him, but that's far from a given.

Were you nice to him in the camp dialogue? You must really, really dislike him. Maybe you should RP a character who thinks he's awesome!