12857 réponses à ce sujet

[MKDAWUSS]

I think it's about halfway through when he shows up. It's not immediately like the monarch.

Modifié par MKDAWUSS, 15 août 2010 - 09:52 .

[Spartas Husky]

CalJones wrote...

Spartas - you only get that if you import a character who has recruited Loghain and done the DR. So essentially he has to survive Origins to show up in Awakening. Then he'll show up at Vigil's Keep during the game.

no no I know he shows up in awakenings. I spare his crazy butt.

But what is the DR? not familiar with Dragon age achronims .

he does come in vigil's keep but I dont remember him saying anything besides "he is moving to orlais".

[DragonRacer13]

Spartas Husky wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Spartas - you only get that if you import a character who has recruited Loghain and done the DR. So essentially he has to survive Origins to show up in Awakening. Then he'll show up at Vigil's Keep during the game.

no no I know he shows up in awakenings. I spare his crazy butt.

But what is the DR? not familiar with Dragon age achronims .

he does come in vigil's keep but I dont remember him saying anything besides "he is moving to orlais".

DR is short for Dark Ritual with Morrigan

[EccentricSage]

devilsgrin wrote...

i just have to disagree with the OP slightly. In the GAME, Loghain is particularly shallow, compared to say Morrigan or even Alistair. We are given his motives, backstory (a limited rundown of him supposedly being a "Hero") then after barely one Act of the game, he becomes the Arch-Villain of the piece... even his cut scenes do little to flesh him out as anything more that a mad despot.
To say that he is the deepest, whilst citing material OUTSIDE the game to make your point is rather unfair. Since i rarely read novellisations or prequel novels for games (owing in regard to these books and the Mass Effect ones, to something of a resentment in regards to EA and their game flavour destroying policies), i can only imagine the character painted in the Calling and Stolen Throne... still. You can't make a claim like this without all the other companions having novels of their own. Since they don't, Loghain may take an overall depth victory, but its not due to any flaws of depth regarding any other characters and the depth they are portrayed with in the GAME
I understand Flemeth makes something of an appearance in the books also, and i for one find her to be perhaps the deepest of the non-party characters.

I second this. Zevran, Shale, and Sten are also pretty deep. It's just a matter of getting to know them. I think Wynne is deep, too, once one realizes how TWISTED the woman actually is. Leliana and Oghren are the only two party options I find a bit shallow.

And Flemeth is a point of fascination as well. I STILL don't know if the things Morrigan claimed are all true. I still don't understand Flemeth's game. I feel so deeply conflicted every time Morrigan asks me to slay her.

I think Loghain is only compelling in the choices the player has to make... Do I let this man redeem his honor for memory of what he once did for Ferelden, or do I execute him to show Ferelden that the means are not justified by the ends... that there is no worthy excuse for such trechery. Beyond that he was a bit simple. His own daughter is more complex and mysterious.

[Sarah1281]

he does come in vigil's keep but I dont remember him saying anything besides "he is moving to orlais".

You must not have played Awakening with a character you've imported that's spared Loghain and married Anora then.

EccentricSage wrote...

devilsgrin wrote...

i just have to disagree with the OP slightly. In the GAME, Loghain is particularly shallow, compared to say Morrigan or even Alistair. We are given his motives, backstory (a limited rundown of him supposedly being a "Hero") then after barely one Act of the game, he becomes the Arch-Villain of the piece... even his cut scenes do little to flesh him out as anything more that a mad despot.
To say that he is the deepest, whilst citing material OUTSIDE the game to make your point is rather unfair. Since i rarely read novellisations or prequel novels for games (owing in regard to these books and the Mass Effect ones, to something of a resentment in regards to EA and their game flavour destroying policies), i can only imagine the character painted in the Calling and Stolen Throne... still. You can't make a claim like this without all the other companions having novels of their own. Since they don't, Loghain may take an overall depth victory, but its not due to any flaws of depth regarding any other characters and the depth they are portrayed with in the GAME
I understand Flemeth makes something of an appearance in the books also, and i for one find her to be perhaps the deepest of the non-party characters.

I second this. Zevran, Shale, and Sten are also pretty deep. It's just a matter of getting to know them. I think Wynne is deep, too, once one realizes how TWISTED the woman actually is. Leliana and Oghren are the only two party options I find a bit shallow.

And Flemeth is a point of fascination as well. I STILL don't know if the things Morrigan claimed are all true. I still don't understand Flemeth's game. I feel so deeply conflicted every time Morrigan asks me to slay her.

I think Loghain is only compelling in the choices the player has to make... Do I let this man redeem his honor for memory of what he once did for Ferelden, or do I execute him to show Ferelden that the means are not justified by the ends... that there is no worthy excuse for such trechery. Beyond that he was a bit simple. His own daughter is more complex and mysterious.

Why can't you take the books into account? No one said 'So just looking at the game and only the game, ignoring all other canon material Loghain is the deepest character.' Loghain is a lot deeper in the books as he has a lot more time to develop and you get more of his backstory and see why he does what he does (his mistrust of the Wardens, his frienship with Maric, his hatred of Orlais, ect.).

Some react like this:

while others still don't like him. He's deeper than some of the other party members just because we get more of him. It doesn't have to excuse him or make you like him but it does make him more three-dimensional and a better, more fleshed-oud character.

[Spartas Husky]

Sarah1281 wrote...

he does come in vigil's keep but I dont remember him saying anything besides "he is moving to orlais".

You must not have played Awakening with a character you've imported that's spared Loghain and married Anora then.

ahhh right right. I haven't imported my married anora characters.... only 1 goes after morrigan one, and one that likes leliana.... thats why lol.


Oh and dontget me wrong, I agree he is a more in depth character than the others.

I like his character... and because of it, I hate him lol.

Like AShley in ME. I love her character... and so I hate that woman.

very well writtened.

But liking a character for his depth is not the same as liking him for what he has done... or wanting to hug the genocidal/slaver/thief/corrupt/sadistic .... "illegitimate son" guy

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 15 août 2010 - 11:20 .

[DragonRacer13]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Some react like this:

while others still don't like him. He's deeper than some of the other party members just because we get more of him. It doesn't have to excuse him or make you like him but it does make him more three-dimensional and a better, more fleshed-oud character.

That's still probably my favorite piece of fanart EVER.
*glomps Loghain while "Behind Blue Eyes" by The Who plays in the background*

[Spartas Husky]

Which books explains his mistrust towards the wardens? I want to find out.

[Sarah1281]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Which books explains his mistrust towards the wardens? I want to find out.

The Stolen Throne explains how Loghain met Maric and joins the rebellion that eventually forces the Orlesians out of the country and The Calling is when Maric allows the Wardens to come back into Ferelden and goes off on a journey with them that gives Loghain severe (and not necessarily misplaced) Warden issues.

[MKDAWUSS]

Ummm, Loghain mentions he's going to Orlais regardless of whether or not you're married to Anora.

[Sarah1281]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Ummm, Loghain mentions he's going to Orlais regardless of whether or not you're married to Anora.

I never disputed that. Loghain just doesn't have the 'So I asked Anora about heirs' discussion with you unless you marry her because then he's talking to you about getting an heir. If you're not prince-consort it's really not something you and he need to talk about.

[Persephone]

Spartas Husky wrote...

wait when does Loghain says " I asked Anora"???

I just dont get why some Like him... if you fenshu or w/e is called the psycotic patriotism, blind arrogance aside, the he killed his daughter's husband aside.... then yeah he is sort of.... not good but you can understand him.... but!!!... female players!!!!! he sold women into slavery... kids!!! man if I had the option I would cut his balls off, and sell them to a krogan.... or a dwarf in this game I guess it would translate to.

I actually understood his point after Ostagar... didn't like him but understood him and respected him in a way.... but that all went zipo when I saw the elves being sold into slavery just because he didn't want to loose to me.

He says that in Awakening during his cameo if you played as a male HN and married his daughter. His reaction to you calling him his father in law after the final battle are priceless too.

I understand where you are coming from. I do not condone slavery by any means. But his voice is regretful when he explains his motives. (As wrong as they are) His hatred and fear of Orlais are neither blind, nor psychotic. Can you imagine a free Gaul asking Caesar for help in a war? 

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

There aren't many characters who inspire such division. To his detractors he is evil incarnate. They tear him to shreds, no matter what. To his supporters he is the misunderstood anti-hero who, scarred by traumata endured during the occupation, made wrong decisions, some of which were the decisions nobody "wants" to make but are sometimes necessary.

It's kind of ironic that you criticize generalizations using generalizations.

Excuse me? The whole paragraph above is merely how I see the two Loghain "parties". (Pro & Contra) And I also doubt that "most" execute him at the Landsmeet.

Loghain is certainly polarizing, but I think we can give most players more credit than you were giving them.  I'm generally considered a Loghain hater around here, but I don't think he is "evil incarnate."  And though there are his fangirls around ([alistair]  creepy  [/alistair]  ), most reasonable Loghain fans recognize his deep flaws.

I suppose we don't know unless BW releases gameplay feedback stats, but I would be surprised if the majority of players spare him.  The game presents him as pretty villainous and you lose Alistair if you do.  Of course, people with multiple pt's can do both.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 août 2010 - 11:44 .

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

There aren't many characters who inspire such division. To his detractors he is evil incarnate. They tear him to shreds, no matter what. To his supporters he is the misunderstood anti-hero who, scarred by traumata endured during the occupation, made wrong decisions, some of which were the decisions nobody "wants" to make but are sometimes necessary.

It's kind of ironic that you criticize generalizations using generalizations.

Excuse me? The whole paragraph above is merely how I see the two Loghain "parties". (Pro & Contra) And I also doubt that "most" execute him at the Landsmeet.

Loghain is certainly polarizing, but I think we can give most players more credit than you were giving them.  I'm generally considered a Loghain hater around here, but I don't think he is "evil incarnate."  And though there are his fangirls around ([alistair]  creepy  [/alistair]  ), most reasonable Loghain fans recognize his deep flaws.

I suppose we don't know unless BW releases gameplay feedback stats, but I would be surprised if the majority of players spare him.  The game presents him as pretty villainous and you lose Alistair if you do.  Of course, people with multiple pt's can do both.

I would hope that if Alistair is involved in their decision to kill Loghain it's because they feel he deserves vengenace or they forgot just how much Loghain's done rather than 'I don't want someone to leave my party' because that seems like a really shallow reason to kill someone.

[Giggles_Manically]

A lot of people have said:

I was going to spare Loghain and then Alistair said NO, then I went oh OK!

And then killed him!

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

A lot of people have said:
I was going to spare Loghain and then Alistair said NO, then I went oh OK!
And then killed him!

And that's kind of sad. It's completely different if you feel Alistair is right or whatever but killing someone you would otherwise spare because you'd rather Alistair stay in the party (or don't want to make him mad) or for the even worse reason of 'Oh, I don't want to lose my tank'...it's very shallow.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

A lot of people have said:
I was going to spare Loghain and then Alistair said NO, then I went oh OK!
And then killed him!

And that's kind of sad. It's completely different if you feel Alistair is right or whatever but killing someone you would otherwise spare because you'd rather Alistair stay in the party (or don't want to make him mad) or for the even worse reason of 'Oh, I don't want to lose my tank'...it's very shallow.

Depending on my PC I let Alistair do it, but no I only ever executed him as my City Elf, since she had a very good reason to see him dead.

[Addai]

There's not much point in being judgmental about how strictly people roleplay. We all metagame to an extent.

[Spartas Husky]

Persephone wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

wait when does Loghain says " I asked Anora"???

I just dont get why some Like him... if you fenshu or w/e is called the psycotic patriotism, blind arrogance aside, the he killed his daughter's husband aside.... then yeah he is sort of.... not good but you can understand him.... but!!!... female players!!!!! he sold women into slavery... kids!!! man if I had the option I would cut his balls off, and sell them to a krogan.... or a dwarf in this game I guess it would translate to.

I actually understood his point after Ostagar... didn't like him but understood him and respected him in a way.... but that all went zipo when I saw the elves being sold into slavery just because he didn't want to loose to me.

He says that in Awakening during his cameo if you played as a male HN and married his daughter. His reaction to you calling him his father in law after the final battle are priceless too.

I understand where you are coming from. I do not condone slavery by any means. But his voice is regretful when he explains his motives. (As wrong as they are) His hatred and fear of Orlais are neither blind, nor psychotic. Can you imagine a free Gaul asking Caesar for help in a war? 

Some value life more than pride, is up to each person to decide which.

haven't read the book, but from the sounds of it, it appears he is generalizing his fears/doubt/prejudice of a powerful experience upon an entire group.

If one man or a small group of people is enought o describe the bigger group... then all fereldens are psycopaths, overly sadistic bastards lol... which isn't true.

Still gota find the damn book, gota read it

Either way.... damn dont got money to read the calling.... ima see if I can find the book somewhere for free lol I wana know

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...
...or for the even worse reason of 'Oh, I don't want to lose my tank'...it's very shallow.

Maker's breath...

At least when someone says something like that it's safe to say that the story isn't what they're in for so their opinion can be easily dismissed as irrelevant in such an argument.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

There's not much point in being judgmental about how strictly people roleplay. We all metagame to an extent.

You really think it's that bad that I don't like the thought of people making a major decision based on something that has nothing to do with it? I'm not judging ANYONE, I'm just expressing something that bugs me. If you or anyone else really wanted to have a game where you chose all your allies by who would look cooler in the final battle, ignored Loghain's crimes/potential use/extenuating circumstances and kill him so you wouldn't have to respec your tank, and never talked to anyone then complained how  horrible they are because you don't get them then it's really not my problem. That's not to say that it wouldn't vaguely annoy me. And what point is there in saying there's no point in getting annoyed? Since when do people choose what little things bug them? 

[i love lamp x3]

loghain is close-minded because of the orlesian occupation of ferelden which obviously he remembers very well. everything he did was to protect ferelden from the orlesians. he didnt want to lose any more soldiers at ostagar because he was afraid of the orlesians taking advantage. even though if you find cailin's documents at ostagar you find that the orlesians were happy to cooperate to battle the blight and eager to end the tension between their neighboring countries.

a leader has to be objective. he can't let personal feelings get in the way of what's truly best for his people. he obviously failed in this regard and because of him nearly every grey warden in ferelden died along with the king. and if it weren't for flemeth, every grey warden in ferelden would've been killed. furthermore, he didn't understand the importance of grey wardens and so wouldn't have allowed grey wardens into ferelden especially any from orlais.

that said, in my main file, i didn't kill loghain, as much as i like alistair. i let loghain sacrifice himself and die with honor. i think he was a decent man who made a lot of bad decisions out of ignorance and fear. but as this game shows you, nothing is black and white. if you ask a tyrant what he does for a living, do you think he would just go ahead and say "i oppress. that's just what i do." no one thinks they're evil.

Modifié par i love lamp x3, 16 août 2010 - 12:13 .

[Daryn Mercio]

Persephone wrote...

I was about to start my reply with a warning like: Expect a lot of Loghain bashing....

But that would be too late, I suppose.

There aren't many characters who inspire such division. To his detractors he is evil incarnate. They tear him to shreds, no matter what. To his supporters he is the misunderstood anti-hero who, scarred by traumata endured during the occupation, made wrong decisions, some of which were the decisions nobody "wants" to make but are sometimes necessary.

I myself prefer the anti-hero interpretation. I take no delight in butchering him in front of his daughter (Some do, it sickens me)

If Anora wasn't there, I would expect the good folks at Bioware to allow me to put him on a rack and gut his coward abdomen

[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

A lot of people have said:
I was going to spare Loghain and then Alistair said NO, then I went oh OK!
And then killed him!

And that's kind of sad. It's completely different if you feel Alistair is right or whatever but killing someone you would otherwise spare because you'd rather Alistair stay in the party (or don't want to make him mad) or for the even worse reason of 'Oh, I don't want to lose my tank'...it's very shallow.

I was going to spare Loghain, then I realized he was a nutjob that abandoned his brothers in arms in the face of fear. Not to mention it seems pointless to allow him to live, considering if you let him live and become a warden, Alistair leaves the wardens, so not only are you back to where you were, having only Riordan, yourself, and another warden, you are pushed back based on Loghains inexperience of being a warden.

[Sarah1281]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

A lot of people have said:
I was going to spare Loghain and then Alistair said NO, then I went oh OK!
And then killed him!

And that's kind of sad. It's completely different if you feel Alistair is right or whatever but killing someone you would otherwise spare because you'd rather Alistair stay in the party (or don't want to make him mad) or for the even worse reason of 'Oh, I don't want to lose my tank'...it's very shallow.

I was going to spare Loghain, then I realized he was a nutjob that abandoned his brothers in arms in the face of fear. Not to mention it seems pointless to allow him to live, considering if you let him live and become a warden, Alistair leaves the wardens, so not only are you back to where you were, having only Riordan, yourself, and another warden, you are pushed back based on Loghains inexperience of being a warden.

Yeah, that's really a better reason than just wanting to please someone else.