12857 réponses à ce sujet

[DragonRacer13]

Esbatty wrote...

Only let Loghain live once, damn Alistair's tantrum is hard to take. But I didn't let him touch Morrigan, she's mine dammit. But its totally worth it to have him as a Father-In-Law, he actually gets on my good side. But I seriously cringe at the thought of him and Morrigan together... its disturbing - unnatural -and that is just too much cunning and calculation for a single being to contain. Imagine just Loghain alone produced the force of will that is Anora. Now take equal parts Morrigan, Loghain, and then multiply that by the essence of an Old God. I dub thee Damien Mac Tir.

Actually, I find it more disturbing that you think Loghain carried a child for 9 months and birthed her all by himself.

(I kid, I kid. But that was awkwardly worded.)

And soooooooo not clicking those links. I almost did, but saw the responses. Glad I didn't, seeings how it's the work comp.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

CalJones wrote...

DR? Poor bugger. I never make him do that, he really doesn't want to.

Btw, Cal, just a footnote on Loghain, the DR and the Redeemer ending. . .

*possible spoilers though not likely for people reading this thread*


I actually had no idea that getting Loghain to do the DR would eliminate any chance he had of redeeming himself by killing the Archdemon. The only other time I've done the DR, I left Alistair at the gates, so naturally once my CE had jumped off the Archdemon's head she went straight for the coup de grace. This time, since there were two Grey Wardens there I assumed that no matter who actually "killed" the Archdemon in combat, Loghain and my Mage would have a dialogue about who finished it off --either an "I want to do it"/"No, I want to do it" argument, or the more polite "You should do it"/"No, you should have the honor" type of deal. I fully intended for my Mage to let Loghain do it; she wasn't one to seek glory for glory's sake and she genuinely wanted to honor Loghain's desire to redeem himself and save Ferelden. She just didn't want him to die in the process. So I was not happy when she suddenly ninja'd the kill out from under him at the last second without saying a word or letting him get one in edgewise. Not cool, and it took me right out of what is still the happiest DA:O ending I've had so far, though it could have been that much sweeter.

Though, even if I had known, I still would have asked him to do the DR in this playthrough. I think my Cousland might let him sacrifice himself though.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:40 .

[Sarah1281]

Really? When I had my character kill the Archdemon w/ Loghain but w/out the DR, I got the dialogue. Was that supposed to happen?

[Giggles_Manically]

If the DR is done the Warden ALWAYS go for the kill in the cutscene.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Really? When I had my character kill the Archdemon w/ Loghain but w/out the DR, I got the dialogue. Was that supposed to happen?

I did do the DR, that was the problem. Since no one was going to die, the Powers that Be at BioWare must have assumed that there was no need to have an argument about who was going to kill Archie.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 01 novembre 2010 - 08:41 .

[Sarah1281]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Really? When I had my character kill the Archdemon w/ Loghain but w/out the DR, I got the dialogue. Was that supposed to happen?

I did do the DR, that was the problem. Since no one was going to die, the Powers that Be at BioWare must have assumed that there was no need to have an argument about who was going to kill Archie.

Well, when Alistair and Loghain offer to do it, they do so because they want to be the one to die for their country and, if they like you, save you as well. What could they possibly have to argue about if you do the DR? Who gets the glory? If they tried to go for the kill, I think it would make them look like they were too worried about being a hero which I think is OOC for both of them. Loghain can be redeemed by killing the Archdemon and giving his own life to do so but (and we don't actually know how people see him if he lives regardless if you do or not, do we?) if he's not going to die then I don't think his reputation would be that much improved if you kill the Archdemon and survive or if he does.

[CalJones]

Yup, even if your own character does the DR (and presumably Loghain/Alistair doesn't know about it) you still don't get any dialogue about it. Warden always does the coup de grace.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, when Alistair and Loghain offer to do it, they do so because they want to be the one to die for their country and, if they like you, save you as well. What could they possibly have to argue about if you do the DR? Who gets the glory? If they tried to go for the kill, I think it would make them look like they were too worried about being a hero which I think is OOC for both of them. Loghain can be redeemed by killing the Archdemon and giving his own life to do so but (and we don't actually know how people see him if he lives regardless if you do or not, do we?) if he's not going to die then I don't think his reputation would be that much improved if you kill the Archdemon and survive or if he does.

Well, Alistair does have a thing about glory --not as bad as Cailan, but he does mention it a lot in battle and also in the Warden's conversation with him at Arl Eamon's estate in Denerim when he explains why he wants to stay a Grey Warden and not be king. And I don't see why Loghain's redeeming himself requires that he lose his life. Atonement can be made for some pretty serious acts without the "guilty" party having to die. By killing the Archdemon, he would once again have saved Ferelden --as was always his intent-- and, hopefully, be at peace with himself as well.

As for his reputation if he kills the Archdemon and lives, the Warden gets showered with accolades and praise and celebration and all kinds of attention, not to mention the blessing of the Throne and the restoration of the Grey Wardens to their former honor. None of that would happen if the Warden didn't kill the Archdemon. (For example, Loghain is largely ignored in the post-coronation celebration.) So why shouldn't he have his chance at being that Warden who ended the Blight, and yet lived?

As for the "argument" I was expecting, I was not really planning on it being much of an argument between my Mage and Loghain. What I was expecting was a break in the action, a conversation starter in which Loghain says something to the effect of "So who gets to do the honors?" or even "Please, I would really like to do this." At that point my Mage would immediately pick the "sure, you go ahead" option and the discussion would be over. But I can see how BioWare might still have put an opportunity for an actual argument there. After all, even in the post-coronation dialogue, the Warden still has the option to talk down to Loghain or tell him he deserves a worse fate than he got. So if they're allowing for that possibility, why not the possibility that the Warden might insist on being the one to deliver the final blow and end the Blight? There was a recent Loghain-vs-Alistair discussion in the Alistair thread in which one poster said she made Loghain do the DR and then left him at the gates specifically so that he couldn't steal away any of her "glory" (her word). So the attitude is not unheard of.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 01 novembre 2010 - 09:18 .

[alschemid]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Ah yes. . .a huge improvement. Although the deepest shadow being right where it is, looks a bit like he's had an accident. . .

Yes, I disliked that also, but I doubt anyone else will look at this angle that close and I didn't want to repaint his trousers right now, since I intent to strip him of his armour, piece by piece, whatever he uses under it will be modeled and painted...then I can make something better for his trousers and put it back in his full armour.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

alschemid wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Ah yes. . .a huge improvement. Although the deepest shadow being right where it is, looks a bit like he's had an accident. . .

Yes, I disliked that also, but I doubt anyone else will look at this angle that close and I didn't want to repaint his trousers right now, since I intent to strip him of his armour, piece by piece, whatever he uses under it will be modeled and painted...then I can make something better for his trousers and put it back in his full armour.

Well even with the Spot, it's still worlds better than the Moon Pants he was wearing before. Thank you.

[Sarah1281]

As for his reputation if he kills the Archdemon and lives, the Warden gets showered with accolades and praise and celebration and all kinds of attention, not to mention the blessing of the Throne and the restoration of the Grey Wardens to their former honor. None of that would happen if the Warden didn't kill the Archdemon. (For example, Loghain is largely ignored in the post-coronation celebration.) So why shouldn't he have his chance at being that Warden who ended the Blight, and yet lived?

And yet if Loghain dies and is the big hero you STILL get pretty much the same praise, accolades, celebration, ect. as if you had done the DR. I think that if Loghain's reputation is helped by him being there to stop the Blight - which it should be - then the technicality of which one did the final blow won't be the deciding factor in whether people still hate Loghain.

There was a recent Loghain-vs-Alistair discussion in the Alistair thread in which one poster said she made Loghain do the DR and then left him at the gates specifically so that he couldn't steal away any of her "glory" (her word). So the attitude is not unheard of.

I haven't been there recently but is that her first playthrough or something? If not, you'd think the fact she did the DR would mean that wasn't a concern. Unless her previous playthroughs were all non-DR Alistair-romance and she always took him with her, I guess. Or maybe never took Alistair with her before so wouldn't know.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As for his reputation if he kills the Archdemon and lives, the Warden gets showered with accolades and praise and celebration and all kinds of attention, not to mention the blessing of the Throne and the restoration of the Grey Wardens to their former honor. None of that would happen if the Warden didn't kill the Archdemon. (For example, Loghain is largely ignored in the post-coronation celebration.) So why shouldn't he have his chance at being that Warden who ended the Blight, and yet lived?

And yet if Loghain dies and is the big hero you STILL get pretty much the same praise, accolades, celebration, ect. as if you had done the DR. I think that if Loghain's reputation is helped by him being there to stop the Blight - which it should be - then the technicality of which one did the final blow won't be the deciding factor in whether people still hate Loghain.

Yeah, that happened to my DC when Alistair ninja'd the Archdemon kill out from under her (Man, I hate that Warden-Commander ending. . .). But there was a point at which either Anora or Wynne acknowledged that they knew they weren't celebrating the true savior of Ferelden, but that they needed somebody live and present to thank, so it was my DC.

As for hating Loghain, that brings me back to my other issue with the end of my Mage playthrough, which was that the Warden has no opportunity to say to the people, or to ask for Anora to say, "Loghain Mac Tir has redeemed himself for his recent actions. If you cannot yet accept him as your hero, at least let bygones be bygones", or something to that effect. Maybe phaonica could include something like that in her mod --either in the post-coronation scene or, perhaps even better, in the "Goodbye (for now)/We're off to see the Archdemon" scene in front of the gates after the Warden chooses his or her Blight-ending companions. The Warden could --if he or she chose-- make a statement or gesture in front of the assembled army which indicates that Loghain is cool in the Warden's book and that if anyone follows, respects or loves the Warden, they should do the same for him. That way if the Warden dies, Loghain still has a chance to get the people's goodwill back.

There was a recent Loghain-vs-Alistair discussion in the Alistair thread in which one poster said she made Loghain do the DR and then left him at the gates specifically so that he couldn't steal away any of her "glory" (her word). So the attitude is not unheard of.

I haven't been there recently but is that her first playthrough or something? If not, you'd think the fact she did the DR would mean that wasn't a concern. Unless her previous playthroughs were all non-DR Alistair-romance and she always took him with her, I guess. Or maybe never took Alistair with her before so wouldn't know.

I think she was referring to her first, or one of her first, playthroughs, but she has had others since then. She still defended her thought process, though.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:13 .

[Addai]

As for his reputation if he kills the Archdemon and lives, the Warden gets showered with accolades and praise and celebration and all kinds of attention, not to mention the blessing of the Throne and the restoration of the Grey Wardens to their former honor. None of that would happen if the Warden didn't kill the Archdemon. (For example, Loghain is largely ignored in the post-coronation celebration.) So why shouldn't he have his chance at being that Warden who ended the Blight, and yet lived?


(husband posting)

That's not true.   If you have Loghain do the ultimate sacrifice where he lands the killing blow, the Warden is still showered with almost as much glory as if he/she did the DR.   It's not just being the one that landed the last blow, the King or Queen honors all the quests and negotiations and battles that was done to raise the army against the Blight, as well as his/ her act of ending the civil war.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 novembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

As for his reputation if he kills the Archdemon and lives, the Warden gets showered with accolades and praise and celebration and all kinds of attention, not to mention the blessing of the Throne and the restoration of the Grey Wardens to their former honor. None of that would happen if the Warden didn't kill the Archdemon. (For example, Loghain is largely ignored in the post-coronation celebration.) So why shouldn't he have his chance at being that Warden who ended the Blight, and yet lived?


(husband posting)

That's not true.   If you have Loghain do the ultimate sacrifice where he lands the killing blow, the Warden is still showered with almost as much glory as if he/she did the DR.   It's not just being the one that landed the last blow, the King or Queen honors all the quests and negotiations and battles that was done to raise the army against the Blight, as well as his/ her act of ending the civil war.

*waves at husband*

Maybe that's the way it is with Loghain, but I swear that when Alistair sacrificed himself, my Warden pointed out to either Anora or Wynne that the accolades were going to the wrong person, and whoever it was acknowledged that yes, Alistair was the true ender of the Blight, but the people needed to celebrate someone who was alive and able to accept their thanks, so why not the Warden who was closest to him? Yes, it still means that the Warden gets all the "glory", but at least people acknowledge that someone else was the actual hero. Maybe Loghain doesn't even get that much recognition; I don't know, I haven't done the Redeemer ending yet. It would be a shame if that were the case, though.

In any case, the Warden can't know how the people are going to react when deciding whether or not to ask Loghain to do the DR. I would still go on the assumption that something good would come out of it for Loghain if he killed the Archdemon, even if he did live.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 01 novembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[CalJones]

It's Wynne, and you get the same convo if it's Alistair or Loghain. Different response, though.

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, Wynne's like. "Poor boy. So, hero..." Pretty much, you are getting all of the glory and Wynne is explaining why.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Kissyface Loghain, a modder needs to get on that STAT!

Aww, you're such a softie, Esbatty.  A true romantic. 

Now you're going to make me play fake-Ellie all the way damn through the game just to get a gates kiss.

Nah, that's not happenin.  I've moved on to Fallout.

The Gatekiss with him is lovely. I just wish it had some context. Oh, Phaooooooooooooonicaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!^^

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Persephone wrote...
The Gatekiss with him is lovely. I just wish it had some context. Oh, Phaooooooooooooonicaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!^^

*ahem*. . .

that brings me back to my other issue with the end of my Mage playthrough, which was that the Warden has no opportunity to say to the people, or to ask for Anora to say, "Loghain Mac Tir has redeemed himself for his recent actions. If you cannot yet accept him as your hero, at least let bygones be bygones", or something to that effect. Maybe phaonica could include something like that in her mod --either in the post-coronation scene or, perhaps even better, in the "Goodbye (for now)/We're off to see the Archdemon" scene in front of the gates after the Warden chooses his or her Blight-ending companions. The Warden could --if he or she chose-- make a statement or gesture in front of the assembled army which indicates that Loghain is cool in the Warden's book and that if anyone follows, respects or loves the Warden, they should do the same for him. That way if the Warden dies, Loghain still has a chance to get the people's goodwill back.

Just, you know, a thought.

Or the Warden could make a speech or give him a token/symbolic gift or whatever, if the Gatekiss was not situationally appropriate.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 02 novembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[phaonica]

Noted on both counts. I had wanted the discussion about who is going to kill the archdemon to fire whether or not the DR was done, for various reasons. I'm working on it when I can, but school is keeping me really busy.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

phaonica wrote...

Noted on both counts. I had wanted the discussion about who is going to kill the archdemon to fire whether or not the DR was done, for various reasons. I'm working on it when I can, but school is keeping me really busy.

You're so kind to us.

Seriously, though, if I have all these scenarios in my head (which, trust me. . .) I should just learn how to make my own damn mods. I'm sure you have your storyline all mapped out the way you want it without kibitzers.

[Sarah1281]

That sounds like it would be complicated since pretty much every line has some reference to someone dying.

[TJPags]

Well, I just wanted to let the Loghain fans know that I finished reading The Stolen Throne.  All those times I asked you people about it, and to explain things to me - won't have to do that anymore.  I now know all that you know. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

Well, I just wanted to let the Loghain fans know that I finished reading The Stolen Throne.  All those times I asked you people about it, and to explain things to me - won't have to do that anymore.  I now know all that you know. 

Liked it?


And I just read 2 more chapters Persephone. I am mourning the loss of Rhiannon's long impractical hair
lol on a serious note, it's great

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 novembre 2010 - 01:42 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, I just wanted to let the Loghain fans know that I finished reading The Stolen Throne.  All those times I asked you people about it, and to explain things to me - won't have to do that anymore.  I now know all that you know. 

Liked it?


And I just read 2 more chapters Persephone. I am mourning the loss of Rhiannon's long impractical hair
lol on a serious note, it's great

It was . . . not a terrible book.  The writing is, quite frankly, about what I expected, which is nowhere near up to par with what I prefer.  However, it was an okay story, which had the potential to be a very good story. 

I think I can fully understand Loghain's intense hatred of all things Orlesian much better than I did before.
I think I can also fully see that idiocy seems to run in the Theirin bloodline - Maric's pretty much a moron, ain't he?

[Addai]

No to Maric hate.



He shaped up to be a good war leader and a good king. Got taken in by Katriel, but so did everyone else.