12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

I think I can fully understand Loghain's intense hatred of all things Orlesian much better than I did before.
I think I can also fully see that idiocy seems to run in the Theirin bloodline - Maric's pretty much a moron, ain't he?

I'm not sure you can appreciate all of it and get his hatred of GWs until you read The Calling, though.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 02 novembre 2010 - 01:51 .

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

No to Maric hate.

He shaped up to be a good war leader and a good king. Got taken in by Katriel, but so did everyone else.

Oh, I'm not hating on him, Addai.  He did, IMO, turn into a pretty good leader near the end of the book.  Not for reasons I approve of, necessarily, and he didn't exactly do things I'd approve of, but he seemed to grow into leadership.

It's more that, the book pretty much portrays him - IMO - as an idiot for, oh, 90% of the book or so.

Edit - @sarah - The Calling is in the house somewhere - they were ordered at the same time.  However, I have another book in line to read which comes out tomorrow, and that's going to occupy me for quite some time.

Modifié par TJPags, 02 novembre 2010 - 01:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

A bit harsh on Maric. I didn't see him as a complete idiot (and trust me, when idiots show up, I call them just that). He seemed, to me at least, that he was more naive than actually stupid (which is what Cailan is).

I didn't think he displayed above average intelligence or do anything that would make me see him as very bright, I think Loghain was the brains in the TST. But I personally didn't see him as an idiot. As a naive barely mature person who with the help of Loghain and Rowan, shapes up to become a decent leader and good figurehead, rather.

At least that's what I know from TST. I have not read the Calling and a number seem to argue that what he did there was idiotic. I don't know, I can't comment on that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 novembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[TJPags]

Well, he seems to be getting lost a lot, not knowing north from south or east from west, his inability to stay on a horse (and for a noble in a medieval society, that's pretty glaring) seems to be a running joke, and how often is he on his own and running for his life?



Let's not add that he seems to need a good slap now and again (literally) to snap out of some idiotic funks, and his utter inability to notice that other people can be, umm, affected by his actions?

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

Well, he seems to be getting lost a lot, not knowing north from south or east from west, his inability to stay on a horse (and for a noble in a medieval society, that's pretty glaring) seems to be a running joke, and how often is he on his own and running for his life?

Let's not add that he seems to need a good slap now and again (literally) to snap out of some idiotic funks, and his utter inability to notice that other people can be, umm, affected by his actions?

Actually yea, you'd think that a fugitive rebel would learn how to ride a horse properly.

Yea, Maric is mostly useless on his own. True.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, I just wanted to let the Loghain fans know that I finished reading The Stolen Throne.  All those times I asked you people about it, and to explain things to me - won't have to do that anymore.  I now know all that you know. 

Liked it?


And I just read 2 more chapters Persephone. I am mourning the loss of Rhiannon's long impractical hair
lol on a serious note, it's great

Thank you. It was a very hard moment to write. I wanted to add more intensity to the "Is that punishment meant for you or me?" line. I hope I succeeded.

[KnightofPhoenix]

You did. I like how you use in-game lines in a context of your choosing, where it would have meaning.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 novembre 2010 - 03:18 .

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

Well, he seems to be getting lost a lot, not knowing north from south or east from west, his inability to stay on a horse (and for a noble in a medieval society, that's pretty glaring) seems to be a running joke, and how often is he on his own and running for his life?

Let's not add that he seems to need a good slap now and again (literally) to snap out of some idiotic funks, and his utter inability to notice that other people can be, umm, affected by his actions?

So, he's human and not a plastic superhero, that about cover it?

[Sarah1281]

Human doesn't necessarily equal likeable, competent, non-annoying, good king material through most of the book, ect.

[Costin_Razvan]

So, he's human and not a plastic superhero, that about cover it?

So he's human and not someone who can rule on his own.



Give me Robb Stark instead of Maric any single day.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So, he's human and not a plastic superhero, that about cover it?

So he's human and not someone who can rule on his own.

Give me Robb Stark instead of Maric any single day.

What king ever does rule alone?

And uh... just how far have you read in SoIaF?  You might want to rethink that comparison.  LOL

Modifié par Addai67, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Human doesn't necessarily equal likeable, competent, non-annoying, good king material through most of the book, ect.

It's often said he's well liked by everyone, he turns out to be a fine king, and annoying is in the eye of the beholder.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Human doesn't necessarily equal likeable, competent, non-annoying, good king material through most of the book, ect.

It's often said he's well liked by everyone, he turns out to be a fine king, and annoying is in the eye of the beholder.

I wasn't talking about Maric specifically (I haven't read the book yet, after all). I've just noticed that whenever someone mentions that a character is acting like an idiot, incompetent, throwing a tantrum, putting their problems before the greater good, acting like a child, whatever other complaint you can think of, the defense is usually "Well, he's human" which I've never thought was a very good one. Lots of people manage to be human and not have those glaring character flaws. If the character did not have that flaw they would still be human. The human-ness of said character is usually not in question.

[Addai]

The point is that everyone has some flaw, whether in character or otherwise. Weakness is inherent, it's just a matter of what kind. I don't think there's any doubt that Maric was the man for the job, along with the people who helped him succeed. You can't argue with results.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 novembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

No to Maric hate.

He shaped up to be a good war leader and a good king. Got taken in by Katriel, but so did everyone else.

Except Loghain and Rowan.:happy:

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

No to Maric hate.

He shaped up to be a good war leader and a good king. Got taken in by Katriel, but so did everyone else.

Except Loghain and Rowan.:happy:

Not so.  Loghain interrogated Katriel and cleared her.  Later on, they all began to get suspicious, though by then Maric was emotionally involved and fighting his suspicions.

[DragonRacer13]

Oy, tough crowd!

Addai -- methinks it is, perhaps, down to a matter of personal preference? Some people enjoy what I would call "lovable goofball" characters, while others may find them annoying klutzes. For example, I like both lovable goofball types and dark, broody types, so I tend to ride a fine line on the fence of liking both Alistair and Loghain.








(Besides, Maric hate makes baby dolphins cry...)

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Lots of people manage to be human and not have those glaring character flaws. If the character did not have that flaw they would still be human. The human-ness of said character is usually not in question.

No one is flawless! It's only a matter of what you are willing to overlook.

[Addai]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Oy, tough crowd!

Addai -- methinks it is, perhaps, down to a matter of personal preference? Some people enjoy what I would call "lovable goofball" characters, while others may find them annoying klutzes. For example, I like both lovable goofball types and dark, broody types, so I tend to ride a fine line on the fence of liking both Alistair and Loghain.

Yes, I'm sure that's true.  It is also a matter of looking at characters fairly, however.  For the ones you like, you tend to minimize/ overlook weaknesses and vice versa for the ones you don't.  One thing I appreciate about Gaider's writing is that he rarely spares anyone.

That's certainly also true for GRRM, which Costin brought up.  Talk about a story where there are no heroes.  Robb Stark is a disaster of a king, but the outcome is understandable in the circumstances.

I admit I didn't think Katriel the most convincing character.

(Besides, Maric hate makes baby dolphins cry...)

And the puppies!  Think of the puppies!

[CalJones]

Hating Maric is like hating puppies. If he had been this perfect, awesome prince he'd be as boring as a tupperware infomercial.

Much as I hated Katriel as soon as she traipsed into the novel, I can forgive him for his misdemeanour. I don't like it - but he's a young man and young men tend to think with the wrong head occassionally. Well, often. He redeemed himself well enough by sticking a sword through her. Was better than she deserved, actually - I'd rather have seen her hang. But when you're not in power yet, you have to improvise occassionally.

Where I have the problem is when he ducks out of the battle of River Dane to go off and kill Katriel's master. Lame decision. Seriously, Maric. Bros before hos.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...
Seriously, Maric. Bros before hos.

LOL

I can understand it, but that's because I think of it more as a special forces mission rather than having anything to do with Katriel (other than the help she provided, which redeems her a smidge).  It's like in Independence Day where the president takes off his president hat and puts on his fighter pilot hat.  It's the one time we see that Maric really is a rogue.  He's just taking out the garbage.

[Maria13]

CalJones wrote...

Hating Maric is like hating puppies. If he had been this perfect, awesome prince he'd be as boring as a tupperware infomercial.
Much as I hated Katriel as soon as she traipsed into the novel, I can forgive him for his misdemeanour. I don't like it - but he's a young man and young men tend to think with the wrong head occassionally. Well, often. He redeemed himself well enough by sticking a sword through her. Was better than she deserved, actually - I'd rather have seen her hang. But when you're not in power yet, you have to improvise occassionally.
Where I have the problem is when he ducks out of the battle of River Dane to go off and kill Katriel's master. Lame decision. Seriously, Maric. Bros before hos.

I see that as a rather astute logistical decision.  Troops engaging on the field meanwhile he's taking out the brains...

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...

I see that as a rather astute logistical decision.  Troops engaging on the field meanwhile he's taking out the brains...

Yes that's how I see it, too.  Someone was going to have to do it, and Maric felt responsible for West Hill so he wanted to take it on himself.

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai67 wrote...

The point is that everyone has some flaw, whether in character or otherwise. Weakness is inherent, it's just a matter of what kind. I don't think there's any doubt that Maric was the man for the job, along with the people who helped him succeed. You can't argue with results.

I don't disagree that everyone has flaws, but a leader cannot allow his flaws to affect his decisions. You spoke about serving your people in the Bannorn thread. How does Maric serve his people by losing himself to despair after Rowan dies? How does he serve when he vanishes with the Grey Wardens in hoping that he will die in the Deep Roads?

That is why I like Robb Stark as a leader. He is perfectly willing to sacrifice his sisters so that he doesn't give Jaime away, and while him breaking his arranged marriage with the Fey did play a part in his downfall, it was Roose who was most responsible for his death.

In regards to Cailan, while I can agree to an extent that Maric was a decent king with Loghain and Rowan at his back, I cannot agree that Cailan deserved any better then his head cut off. I do not care that he was young and naive. He had no ****ing excuse in my eyes to seek a battle he KNEW he was going to lose and thus damned thousands of people to their deaths for what? Glory?

Loghain's emotional mistake was that he did not kill the idiot and saved his entire army, but in a sense that mistake was understandable ( he thought he could maybe win the battle until the last moment ), so unlike Cailan  I don't judge him that much for it.

A leader in my opinion should have a strong sense of responsibility for his country and people as a whole: Loghain did, Maric did to a certain extent, Cailan did not, and whether you agree with my decisions or not , my reasoning for them has always been for the greater good of Fereldan+Orzammar, from killing Trian to planning to massacre the Bannorn. ( The only one where I let my emotions to take the better of me is the DR choice - I cannot and will not fathom destroying another soul for whatever reason, call me a hypocrite but there is a line even I won't cross over )

To quote the Ashbringer: "If you don't stop thinking about yourself, you will be no better then the Lich King himself."

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 novembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...
The point is that everyone has some flaw, whether in character or otherwise. Weakness is inherent, it's just a matter of what kind.

I certainly allow for people to have flaws, but I don't think it's unfair to hold the King to a higher standard of responsibility.

Addai67 wrote...
I don't think there's any doubt that Maric was the man for the job, along with the people who helped him succeed. You can't argue with results.

I suppose if one simply wanted to say that it's a heroic fantasy and the hero happens to be the king, and in heroic fantasy style, the main character is going to find him/herself suceeding in their risk-taking, despite the odds stacked against them, or succeeding due to the help of those around them, rather than their own skills. The way I see it, Maric made some irresponsible choices and they worked out anyways because he's the Hero.

The PC can be hateful and murderous and whatever all throughout the Blight and still win. One may not be able to argue with the results, but that doesn't make that PC either likable or good king/queen material.

Addai67 wrote...
It is also a matter of looking at characters fairly, however. For the ones you like, you tend to minimize/ overlook weaknesses and vice versa for the ones you don't.

That depends on what constitutes a fair judgment. Is it unfair to dislike a character based on judgments concerning flaws, weaknesses, or mistakes, even when taking their strengths, successes, and histories into consideration?

CalJones wrote...
If he had been this perfect, awesome prince he'd be as boring as a tupperware infomercial.

I agree that if he'd just been flawless that he'd have been boring. I'm not really saying that I don't like him. I perceive him to be rather more irresponsible than I would like in a king. That doesn't mean I don't like him as a character.

Modifié par phaonica, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:25 .