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[Maria13]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The point is that everyone has some flaw, whether in character or otherwise. Weakness is inherent, it's just a matter of what kind. I don't think there's any doubt that Maric was the man for the job, along with the people who helped him succeed. You can't argue with results.

I don't disagree that everyone has flaws, but a leader cannot allow his flaws to affect his decisions. You spoke about serving your people in the Bannorn thread. How does Maric serve his people by losing himself to despair after Rowan dies? How does he serve when he vanishes with the Grey Wardens in hoping that he will die in the Deep Roads?

That is why I like Robb Stark as a leader. He is perfectly willing to sacrifice his sisters so that he doesn't give Jaime away, and while him breaking his arranged marriage with the Fey did play a part in his downfall, it was Roose who was most responsible for his death.

*SPOILER FOR BOOK 3 OF ASOIAF*

But Robb Stark's downfall was that he let his personal feelings lead him to reject a bride from a powerful ally (Lord Frey) and marry someone who had nothing to offer him strategically...  In the middle of a three or four front war this is a very large mistake. How does that serve Robb Stark and his cause? Again it's leaders being carried away by their humanity.

Modifié par Maria13, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:21 .

[Rykoth]

I don't understand the defense of Loghain.

Was the King a fool? Sure. Duncan expressed as much subtley when he said he wanted to wait for the other Wardens to arrive.

But for all the "good" he does...

- He risks civil war. He's the regent, not the King, yet he makes himself out to be the ruler, and Anora just lets it happen - no, she allows herself to be controlled by the Loghain-Howe alliance.

- He allies with Howe, who massacres the Couslands, and the Couslands are loyal to the king. Interesting.

- He outlaws the Grey Wardens. Well... yanno. If I was in the position of the Cousland Warden, instead of the in game choices, I would have told Alistair to grab Goldanna, Eamon, Redcliffe, and let the Blight pound Denerium into dust for that. Why? Because Loghain tried to outlaw, and kill, the one force that could kill the damn Archdemon.

Those three are enough IMO to despise Loghain.

That said, he IS  a deep character, and it's nice to see multiple sides of'em. But much as I can't stand the Alistair love, I can't stand the Loghain Love either

[Costin_Razvan]

But Robb Stark's downfall was that he let his personal feelings lead him to reject a bride from a powerful ally (Lord Frey) and marry someone who had nothing to offer him strategically... In the middle of a three or four front war this is a very large mistake. How does that serve Robb Stark and his cause? Again it's leaders being carried away by their humanity.

It was a mistake on his part, true enough, but it wasn't what caused him to fall ( though it did play a part in it ).

Then again that's nothing compared to the mistakes his father and mother do.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[Zjarcal]

Rykoth wrote...
I can't stand the Loghain Love either

Good. No one can.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 02 novembre 2010 - 08:41 .

[blothulfur]

Well Anora appointing her father (a tactical genius) as regent during a time of war is hardly Loghain seizing power, and since she is the rightful queen until the next Landsmeet convenes the Banns should be following her chosen regents orders to preserve their land not worrying about political form and power bases.

As for his hatred of Grey Wardens, its kind of justified given his background. I wish there had been a chance to side with him in origins.

[Sarah1281]

Rykoth wrote...


- He risks civil war. He's the regent, not the King, yet he makes himself out to be the ruler, and Anora just lets it happen - no, she allows herself to be controlled by the Loghain-Howe alliance.

The regent might as well be the king and he never calls himself king (that idiot sent to Orzammar does, likely to make himself seem more important). Anora doesn't let anything happen. She is the previous king's consort and Loghain and his army come in and use her name to make himself regent. Her army, the royal army, died at Ostagar. It seems to me more like a coup that she's forced to go along with.

- He allies with Howe, who massacres the Couslands, and the Couslands are loyal to the king. Interesting.

He allies with the other Teyrn and most powerful man around besides him. Interesting.

- He outlaws the Grey Wardens. Well... yanno. If I was in the position of the Cousland Warden, instead of the in game choices, I would have told Alistair to grab Goldanna, Eamon, Redcliffe, and let the Blight pound Denerium into dust for that. Why? Because Loghain tried to outlaw, and kill, the one force that could kill the damn Archdemon.

No one knows that the GWs are actually needed and reading the Calling explains just why Loghain hates them, besides the fact that they came to Ferelden from Orlais twenty or so years ago.

[CalJones]

Again, Zjarcal?

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...
He allies with the other Teyrn and most powerful man around besides him. Interesting.

He allies with an Arl, and promotes him to Teyrn

[Zjarcal]

CalJones wrote...

Again, Zjarcal?

Fine, I'll delete it.

I thought it would be a good deterrent against the "I hate Loghain love campaign!"... <_<

[Axekix]

Zjarcal wrote...

Rykoth wrote...
I can't stand the Loghain Love either

Good. No one can.

I wish you had edited this 1 second earlier... before I clicked on the original link...

[Zjarcal]

Axekix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Rykoth wrote...
I can't stand the Loghain Love either

Good. No one can.

I wish you had edited this 1 second earlier... before I clicked on the original link...

I had already posted it a few pages back. I thought it would be funny to use when someone came in saying that Loghain deserves no love. But noooooo....

And consider this retribution for the pic you posted in the Leli thread!!! 

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Zjarcal wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Again, Zjarcal?

Fine, I'll delete it.

I thought it would be a good deterrent against the "I hate Loghain love campaign!"... <_<

Oh, so I was the only perv who clicked on all the links *again*, just to see if you'd slipped in any new Easter Eggs? Fine, I know where I stand now. . .

[Zjarcal]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Again, Zjarcal?

Fine, I'll delete it.

I thought it would be a good deterrent against the "I hate Loghain love campaign!"... <_<

Oh, so I was the only perv who clicked on all the links *again*, just to see if you'd slipped in any new Easter Eggs? Fine, I know where I stand now. . .

LOL!!! Eh, I was going to do that but I got lazy. I'll probably hide some links in future posts. More subtly though... 

[alschemid]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Oh, so I was the only perv who clicked on all the links *again*, just to see if you'd slipped in any new Easter Eggs? Fine, I know where I stand now. . .

I don't think you are the only one here....:innocent:

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
He allies with the other Teyrn and most powerful man around besides him. Interesting.

He allies with an Arl, and promotes him to Teyrn

Not exactly. Loghain bestowed the Arldom of Denerim upon him. The massacre at Highever castle made Howe Teyrn of Highever. That's at least what I think. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Modifié par Persephone, 02 novembre 2010 - 09:43 .

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
He allies with the other Teyrn and most powerful man around besides him. Interesting.

He allies with an Arl, and promotes him to Teyrn

Not exactly. Loghain bestowed the Arldom of Denerim upon him. The massacre at Highever castle made Howe Teyrn of Highever. That's at least what I think. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Teyrnir's seem to be in the gift of the crown - at least, the Warden gets given one if they want.  Though I guess it's not entirely clear.

I don't think you get legal title by killing your overlord, though.  Not unless Ferelden operates under Klingon customs, anyway.

[phaonica]

Persephone wrote...

Not exactly. Loghain bestowed the Arldom of Denerim upon him. The massacre at Highever castle made Howe Teyrn of Highever. That's at least what I think. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Does Loghain 'bestow' that title upon Howe? He certainly acknowledges it, but where exactly does it say that Loghain gave him the Arldom?

[Sarah1281]

Well, there's this:



Loghain: How long you've been gone from court, Eamon! Don't you recognize Rendon Howe, Arl of Amaranthine, and Teyrn of Highever?

Howe: And current arl of Denerim, since Urien's unfortunate fate at Ostagar. The regent has been... generous to those who prove loyal.



To me, that makes it sound like Denerim was given to him by Loghain. The Arl of Amaranthine is a vassal to the Teyrn of Highever but I rather doubt the Arl of Denerim is. Anora/Alistair can appoint you Teyrn of Gwarden at the end because there's really no one else to fill it. Anora is imprisoned/queen and Loghain is dead/abdicated. When Urien died and Vaughan either did as well or Howe pretended he's dead there's no one to fill that, either, and so Loghain appointed him. From what we find out in Awakening about how so many banns were in on the Cousland massacre, it seems to me like the Highever succession was an internal matter.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, there's this:

Loghain: How long you've been gone from court, Eamon! Don't you recognize Rendon Howe, Arl of Amaranthine, and Teyrn of Highever?
Howe: And current arl of Denerim, since Urien's unfortunate fate at Ostagar. The regent has been... generous to those who prove loyal.

It could also be that Howe claimed the titles for himself and Loghain didn't contest them, rather than Loghain actually gifting Howe for loyalty. There's no proof of that, obviously, but it's not outside the realm of possibility, imo.

[Wulfram]

To me, that dialogue reads like both Highever and Denerim were given by Loghain. Though it's not as clear cut as I recalled.

[KnightofPhoenix]

There is a slight difference between having a title de jure, and having the power associated with the title de facto. Loghain might have bestowed the Ternir of Highever to Howe, but that was because de factor, Howe already controlled Highever. 2nd, the Arling of Denerim was given to Howe after he delt with the alienage uprising and claimed that Vaughan died in the process. Which again means that de facto, Howe was acting like the Arl of Denerim and only needed the official stamp from Loghain.

This does not have to absolve Loghain if you believe it shouldn't. Just thought I'd argue that Loghain did not give that power to Howe, but rather gave him the titles associated with the powers Howe claimed on his own.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is a slight difference between having a title de jure, and having the power associated with the title de facto. Loghain might have bestowed the Ternir of Highever to Howe, but that was because de factor, Howe already controlled Highever. 2nd, the Arling of Denerim was given to Howe after he delt with the alienage uprising and claimed that Vaughan died in the process. Which again means that de facto, Howe was acting like the Arl of Denerim and only needed the official stamp from Loghain.
This does not have to absolve Loghain if you believe it shouldn't. Just thought I'd argue that Loghain did not give that power to Howe, but rather gave him the titles associated with the powers Howe claimed on his own.

Exactly. In the cases of both Highever and Denerim, Howe created the vacuum of power. After the fact, he probably claimed the titles for himself. Loghain didn't take them away, but he didn't gift them, either.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

To quote the Ashbringer: "If you don't stop thinking about yourself, you will be no better then the Lich King himself."

Right, I forgot that murder is your answer to every political problem.  As Roseanne Roseannadanna might say...


Song of Ice and Fire spoilers


And once again LOL that a king who can't even hold his own territory or his own men and who gets himself and his family killed because he couldn't keep his wang under control is your paragon of kingliness.  Jaime intended to keep his promise, BTW.  So yeah.  Logic doesn't seem to play any part in your rating of characters.

[Addai]

Rykoth wrote...
But much as I can't stand the Alistair love, I can't stand the Loghain Love either

You're apparently very concerned about what other players like.  I take it you would have us confine our enthusiasm for... who?  Sten?  Dog?

[Costin_Razvan]

Right, I forgot that murder is your answer to every political problem.

If the Bannorn were the kind of people who could be reasoned with then I would seek to pacify them and unite Fereldan under a central government.

But REASON is not something you discuss when dealing with people who wage wars over Trees, nor with the idiotic glory seeking Cailan, but hey you still refuse to believe he knew the battle was going to be a loss and still seeked it out, whatever.

And once again LOL that a king who can't even hold his own territory or his own men and who gets himself and his family killed because he couldn't keep his wang under control is your paragon of kingliness. Jaime intended to keep his promise, BTW. So yeah. Logic doesn't seem to play any part in your rating of characters.

Your point? I said I would prefer Robb over Maric. I never did say he was the best king ( because well...Daenerys is ). Maric lost almost his ENTIRE army at West Hill because he trusted Katriel, so good logic there.

As for Jaime keeping his promise, LOL indeed. Can you even pretend to think with a logical military sense instead of your usual bull**** that would make you a leader to match Harrowmont in demolishing his own nation.

You do not ( I repeat, DO NOT ), release a general of your enemy who is known to be a good tactical leader just so you can save your sisters.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 02:28 .