12857 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, he seems to be getting lost a lot, not knowing north from south or east from west, his inability to stay on a horse (and for a noble in a medieval society, that's pretty glaring) seems to be a running joke, and how often is he on his own and running for his life?

Let's not add that he seems to need a good slap now and again (literally) to snap out of some idiotic funks, and his utter inability to notice that other people can be, umm, affected by his actions?

So, he's human and not a plastic superhero, that about cover it?

Wow, all sorts of book discussion, then Loghain discussion, then . . not sure - ASoIaF discussion?

Seems I'm a bit late, but I did want to answer you, Addai.

No, I don't like my "hero's" to be supermen.  I like character development, I like indecision - particularly in their thoughts/privvate discussions.  I like people who have doubts, who search for the best thing to do before doing it.  In other words, no RIchard Rahls, please (yes, that's a part of my life I want back ). 

But, IMO, there's more to that here.  Gaider seems almost to try to write Maric as a buffoon, almost as comic relief sometimes.  Even if that's going too far, he seems to go to great lengths to paint a portrate of an impulsive, naive, lacking-in-self confidence person.  Who then, with really no on screen development, somehow is a great leader, who knows just the right thing to do.

I find it hard to reconcile the Maric we met at the beginning of the book - hell, even the one we saw in the Deep Roads, with the one who ambushes and assasinates - sorry, executes - 5 men in a Chantry.  There was a distinct lack of on-screen development to make that believable, IMO.

Now, I have alot of other issues with the book, but 1), this is not a book report, 2), I don't really want to bash Mr. Gaider on what is, sort of, his own board, and 3), the discussion seems to have moved beyond this.  But I did want to respond to you, here.

BTW - GRRM is one hell of an author . .I'd call him one hell of a writer, if only he'd actually, you know, write something. 

[Costin_Razvan]

BTW - GRRM is one hell of an author . .I'd call him one hell of a writer, if only he'd actually, you know, write something.

He's working on the TV series.



Damnit Sean Bean! "Sigh"...

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

BTW - GRRM is one hell of an author . .I'd call him one hell of a writer, if only he'd actually, you know, write something.

He's working on the TV series.

Damnit Sean Bean! "Sigh"...

Yes, and his bloody "meerenese knot".  For five flaming years!!!!!!!!!!!!  Or is it six now?

(sorry - deep into Towers of Midnight at the moment)

[Costin_Razvan]

Is the Wheel of Time series any good?



By good I mean comparable to ASoIaF

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Is the Wheel of Time series any good?

By good I mean comparable to ASoIaF

Good, yet extremely different.  Far less bloody and violent, for one.  For another, Jordan had an odd affinity for describing dresses in detail - as well as hair styles, and how someone drinks their tea, and . . .well, he goes into detail about a LOT of things.

However, there's a very good depth to the book, character development is very well done, and the story itself is a good one.

Given your bloodthirtsy inclinations, it may be too tame and slow moving for you, though. 

Edit - for something more comparable to ASoIaF, I'd reccomment Ericson's Malazan books.  If you haven't read them, they are a must.

Modifié par TJPags, 03 novembre 2010 - 02:52 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Ah I see, pretty much what I knew about the Wheel of Time.

Thanks for the suggestion though, haven't had much to read besides The Black Company once I finished ASoIaF ( damned long series though ).

I personally would recommend Generation Kill, if you want something spicy.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 02:58 .

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

But, IMO, there's more to that here.  Gaider seems almost to try to write Maric as a buffoon, almost as comic relief sometimes.  Even if that's going too far, he seems to go to great lengths to paint a portrate of an impulsive, naive, lacking-in-self confidence person.  Who then, with really no on screen development, somehow is a great leader, who knows just the right thing to do.

There is a problem for all the characters in TST, that Gaider was not allowed to really write the story (due to time constraints).  So in the middle you have this "and then two years pass" and during that time, Maric is up front in a lot of the battles.  He is also in the front on the "onscreen" battles, as well.  So there's that.  In my view, Loghain needed more of an arc.  He stays pretty static throughout the book.

BTW - GRRM is one hell of an author . .I'd call him one hell of a writer, if only he'd actually, you know, write something. 

Supposedly he is writing book 5, but slowly.  You wonder how the TV series will affect a still unfinished book 5.  He conceded that it might.  That makes me nervous- I don't want the HBO audience determining the end of the story.

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ah I see, pretty much what I knew about the Wheel of Time.

Thanks for the suggestion though, haven't had much to read besides The Black Company once I finished ASoIaF ( damned long series though ).

I personally would recommend Generation Kill, if you want something spicy.

Black Company is a damn good series.  Was damn hard to find some of them, but worth it.

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

But, IMO, there's more to that here.  Gaider seems almost to try to write Maric as a buffoon, almost as comic relief sometimes.  Even if that's going too far, he seems to go to great lengths to paint a portrate of an impulsive, naive, lacking-in-self confidence person.  Who then, with really no on screen development, somehow is a great leader, who knows just the right thing to do.

There is a problem for all the characters in TST, that Gaider was not allowed to really write the story (due to time constraints).  So in the middle you have this "and then two years pass" and during that time, Maric is up front in a lot of the battles.  He is also in the front on the "onscreen" battles, as well.  So there's that.  In my view, Loghain needed more of an arc.  He stays pretty static throughout the book.

BTW - GRRM is one hell of an author . .I'd call him one hell of a writer, if only he'd actually, you know, write something. 

Supposedly he is writing book 5, but slowly.  You wonder how the TV series will affect a still unfinished book 5.  He conceded that it might.  That makes me nervous- I don't want the HBO audience determining the end of the story.

Your first point is pretty much why I called TST a "okay book".  I don't know why it is how it is, whether it was time constraint, page constraint, or the author . . .but if you want me to believe in character development, you need to show it to me.  Gaider didn't.

As for GRRM - as you know, he's been writing book 5 for 5-6 years now.  Remember, when AFFC came out, the back jacket indicated that book 5 was nearly written - after all, AFFC was split from ADWD.  Yet, in all this time . . . well, he's been working on it.  And now, as you point out, he's got the HBO series he's heavily involved in.  Now, I love the thought of this coming to the screen - can't wait to see it.  But like you, I wonder how it will affect the timing of future books, and the content.  I'd hate to see the course of the book changed by TV fan reaction - but then again, I've begun to wonder if he even HAS a clear direction anymore.

[Costin_Razvan]

Supposedly he is writing book 5, but slowly. You wonder how the TV series will affect a still unfinished book 5. He conceded that it might. That makes me nervous- I don't want the HBO audience determining the end of the story.

I wouldn't worry about it. Unless I a am mistaken a good author always sets a basic end for the gigantic story he is creating in a series of books before even publishing the first one ( J.K.R said something about this if I recall ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Supposedly he is writing book 5, but slowly. You wonder how the TV series will affect a still unfinished book 5. He conceded that it might. That makes me nervous- I don't want the HBO audience determining the end of the story.

I wouldn't worry about it. Unless I a am mistaken a good author always sets a basic end for the gigantic story he is creating in a series of books before even publishing the first one ( J.K.R said something about this if I recall ).

Costin, you clearly don't know what Georgie has been up to for the past 5 years.  He's been writing, re-writing, editing, re-editing, trashing, writing, etc. for years on a book which was, allegedly, almost done 5 years ago.  He discarded an entire plot line, tried to rewrite it, wrote himself into a corner, and has been trying to get out of it for 6 years.

So, yea, I'm not sure he really has an outline here.

[Costin_Razvan]

So, yea, I'm not sure he really has an outline here.

He has one I think, just that he is unsure how to present the story from the point it is now to the point he wants it to end.

I am writing a massive set of stories myself, and while I do have the end of them all very clearly laid out before me I am not sure how to get the story there from start to finish.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:26 .

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So, yea, I'm not sure he really has an outline here.

He has one I think, just that he is unsure how to present the story from the point it is now to the point he wants it to end.

I am writing a massive set of stories myself, and while I do have the end of them all very clearly laid out before me I am not sure how to get the story there from start to finish.

But Costin - that's exactly what an outline IS . . . it's the roadmap of how you get from "once upon a time" to "they all lived happily ever after". 
A talented author with an outline should NOT be stuck for 5 years.

[Costin_Razvan]

A talented author with an outline should NOT be stuck for 5 years.

Really now? Tolkien spent ten years on the Lord of Rings, bear that in mind. An author can very well be stuck for that length of time. You can very easily write a 10.000 word chapter and then just delete it all in the last moment because you are not happy with it. ( Shakespeare was known to do this for his works ).

Trying to rush it would never end well. Writing is a creative process which simply takes time.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:33 .

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

A talented author with an outline should NOT be stuck for 5 years.

Really now? Tolkien spent ten years on the Lord of Rings, bear that in mind. An author can very well be stuck for that length of time. You can very easily write a 10.000 word chapter and then just delete it all in the last moment because you are not happy with it. ( Shakespeare was known to do this for his works ).

Tolkien spent 10 years on the three books, which he basically wrote part time while teaching full time.  He had all 3 books wirtten - along with the background material which became the Silmarillion, etc - before anything was published.

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

But Costin - that's exactly what an outline IS . . . it's the roadmap of how you get from "once upon a time" to "they all lived happily ever after". 
A talented author with an outline should NOT be stuck for 5 years.

It's worrisome, but maybe he was holding out for a TV or film deal or there's something else going on.  I dunno.

Anyway, how 'bout that Loghain?

[Costin_Razvan]

Tolkien spent 10 years on the three books, which he basically wrote part time while teaching full time. He had all 3 books wirtten - along with the background material which became the Silmarillion, etc - before anything was published.

From what you are saying is that you are giving me the impression that you think an author can just write at command every single day....eh doesn't work like that.

Just let the man do his work. His "fans" constantly nagging him about it does not help one bit, and if he doesn't publish the 5th book just accept it. He doesn't owe anyone anything.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:42 .

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tolkien spent 10 years on the three books, which he basically wrote part time while teaching full time. He had all 3 books wirtten - along with the background material which became the Silmarillion, etc - before anything was published.

From what you are saying is that you are giving me the impression that you think an author can just write at command every single day....eh doesn't work like that.

Just let the man do his work. His "fans" constantly nagging him about it does not help one bit, and if he doesn't publish the 5th book just accept it. He doesn't owe anyone anything.

Well, you know, it IS his job.  And quite a number of authors are able to turn out a book every year or so for many many years without serious issues,

But I've had this discussion with many people in the past, and have no desire to do so again, nor is this the place.

So - Loghain . . .he saw a dragon, you know.

[Costin_Razvan]

Well, you know, it IS his job.

No it's not, and you are not his boss even if it were his job. It's his passion, and how fast other writers can do their own work is irrelevant.

In other words. G.R.R.M is not your **** ( I loved that article Gaider linked on the DA 2 forum ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I tried reading the Wheel of time.

Interesting stuff, but its a lot of reading to get through, and it goes VERY slow.

[Sarah1281]

Why does it seem like there's no middle ground between 'OMG, you're such a genius! I will happily wait forever on the off chance you ever publish something new without once wishing you could hurry up' and being accused of acting like you think the author is your ****?

[Costin_Razvan]

'OMG, you're such a genius! I will happily wait forever on the off chance you ever publish something new without once wishing you could hurry up'

I personally wish he would do it as well, but I won't make demands out of him to do it ( and yes I know some of his fans feel a sense of entitlement like he owes them something ) nor will I get pissed about it if he doesn't ever publish.

[ejoslin]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

A talented author with an outline should NOT be stuck for 5 years.

Really now? Tolkien spent ten years on the Lord of Rings, bear that in mind. An author can very well be stuck for that length of time. You can very easily write a 10.000 word chapter and then just delete it all in the last moment because you are not happy with it. ( Shakespeare was known to do this for his works ).

Trying to rush it would never end well. Writing is a creative process which simply takes time.

My theory... GRRM lost interest in the series.  He may have an outline -- he just is tired of writing it.  He may finish the series via HBO miniseries.  

Which would make me nerdrage for years.

Edit: He has written other books in this time which is why I think he lost interest.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
 So there's that.  In my view, Loghain needed more of an arc.  He stays pretty static throughout the book.

Here, I disagree.
First of because, imo, he did have a subtle arc from someone who couldn't stand Maric, to someone who was almost fanatically loyal to him and to someone who loved him as a brother. His romance with Rowan and ultimately his sacrifice can also be seen as part of a subtle arc and character development. In addition, he turned from a poacher who didn't seem to care about Ferelden much, to someone who was extremily devoted to his country.

Subtle because that's Loghain's personality. He appears cold and static and that's how it should be. Any obvious arc would fail to capture Loghain's charater, imo. Also, because the real arc in Loghain's life is, imo, when his mother died. That event made Loghain what he was and changed / damaged him beyond repair. It in someways dictated to him a life and a destiny he didn't necessarily want. I don't think he could have deviated much from that.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 novembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 So there's that.  In my view, Loghain needed more of an arc.  He stays pretty static throughout the book.

Here, I disagree.
First of because, imo, he did have a subtle arc from someone who couldn't stand Maric, to someone who was almost fanatically loyal to him and to someone who loved him as a brother. His romance with Rowan and ultimately his sacrifice can also be seen as part of a subtle arc and character development. In addition, he turned from a poacher who didn't seem to care about Ferelden much, to someone who was extremily devoted to his country.

Subtle because that's Loghain's personality. He appears cold and static and that's how it should be. Any obvious arc would fail to capture Loghain's charater, imo. Also, because the real arc in Loghain's life is, imo, when his mother died. That event made Loghain what he was and changed / damaged him beyond repair. It in someways dictated to him a life and a destiny he didn't necessarily want. I don't think he could have deviated much from that.  

I think that Maric and Loghain both developed and changed in ST. Loghain was kind of a hothead near the beginning of ST, but by the end (with Maric's help) Loghain was taking his duty to Ferelden seriously. Maric fumbled with the kingship throughout the book, but at the end (with Loghain's help), Maric changed into someone who had the strength to step up to the responsibility he was fated to shoulder.

In the Calling, I think that Maric took a step back as far as development goes while Loghain maintained his development from ST. Maybe that's a side effect of being in the story's spotlight.