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Why Teyrn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age


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#5126
testing123

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Addai67 wrote...
In my view, Loghain needed more of an arc.  He stays pretty static throughout the book.


I agree for the most part.  Loghain was a skeptical, grim pragmatist at the beginning of the book and he was a skeptical, grim pragmatist at the end.  Most of the Loghain-centric parts of the novel involve him rejecting any opportunity to embrace a different way of living rather than 'learning a lesson' from an arc.  But if anything could be considered an arc for Loghain I would have to say it is his patriotism.  

When Loghain's father sacrifices himself to allow for Maric's escape, Loghain fails to see the logic or benefit in such an action.  He views it as a foolish waste.  (An alternative interpretation might be that Loghain's reaction to his father's sacrifice is the coping mechanism of an incredibly brusque individual rather than a literal indictment of his father's decision.)  However, one could argue that over the course of the novel, through his blossoming friendship with Maric, Loghain matures and recognizes the value in devotion to something greater than yourself.  

Granted, I feel like I am filling in a lot of blanks here that the novel didn't really illustrate, at least not particularly well.  If the reader had more access to Loghain's inner thoughts the arc probably would have been more readily apparent.  This, however, would likely come at the cost of some of the charm of the character since an increased transparency would likely damage the enigma surrounding Loghain.

#5127
CalJones

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I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment, jvee.

#5128
Addai

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@jvee and KoP, good point, about the patriotism aspect.

#5129
TJPags

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 So there's that.  In my view, Loghain needed more of an arc.  He stays pretty static throughout the book.


Here, I disagree.
First of because, imo, he did have a subtle arc from someone who couldn't stand Maric, to someone who was almost fanatically loyal to him and to someone who loved him as a brother. His romance with Rowan and ultimately his sacrifice can also be seen as part of a subtle arc and character development. In addition, he turned from a poacher who didn't seem to care about Ferelden much, to someone who was extremily devoted to his country.

Subtle because that's Loghain's personality. He appears cold and static and that's how it should be. Any obvious arc would fail to capture Loghain's charater, imo. Also, because the real arc in Loghain's life is, imo, when his mother died. That event made Loghain what he was and changed / damaged him beyond repair. It in someways dictated to him a life and a destiny he didn't necessarily want. I don't think he could have deviated much from that.  


See, I really didn't see that.  And honestly, I tried to find it.

My take on Loghain in the books:  It wasn't that he couldn't stand Maric in the beginning, more that he didn't want to be bothered with him.  When he learned who he was, his reaction was due to the fact that it brought danger to Loghain and his father and the people he lived with - not so much hatred at Maric, but anger about what his presence meant.

I saw that he began to care about Maric, understand him, perhaps even love him.  But I never saw that same devotion to Ferelden.  And I was REALLY looking for that.  Perhaps, in the closing River Dane sequence, I may have seen some of it, but really, I viewed him more as doing it for Maric than for the country.

The romance with Rowan?  Well, aside from Maric's utter idiocy (fairly standard fantasy novel idiocy, I'll admit) that whole Rowan-Loghain thing seemed forced to me.  Again, this is likely a result of giving it so little screen time.  Yet I didn't feel it.  I felt Maric and Katriel.  Loghain and Rowan?  I didn't.

I saw Loghain as a grim, calculating man in the beginning of the book - and a grim, manipulative one in the end.

Final note on GRRM - he is not my b****.  Neither am I his.  If he can't be bothered to write the next book (and no matter what people want to say, he's an author, writing is, in fact, his job) I can't be bothered to purchase it.  I've enjoyed the first 4 books immensely.  I will take any others out of the library.

#5130
KnightofPhoenix

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TJPags wrote...

I saw Loghain as a grim, calculating man in the beginning of the book - and a grim, manipulative one in the end.


Which I thought was better than Maric's out-screen transformation.

And yea, the Loghain Rowan romance was not delt with as much as it should have. The Maric Katriel one, I felt because of how annoying it is.

#5131
Addai

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A bit of an interesting art style, but still sexy.  Loghain-Rowan

*pic snipped for boobage*

Stolen Moment

The artist admits the hair is too red for Rowan.  Works for Ellie, though.  Image IPB

Modifié par Addai67, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:44 .


#5132
Morwen Eledhwen

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Addai67 wrote...

A bit of an interesting art style, but still sexy.  Loghain-Rowan

*pic snipped for boobage*

Stolen Moment

The artist admits the hair is too red for Rowan.  Works for Ellie, though.  Image IPB


As does her playing with his unbraided hair. I thought of that immediately. <3

#5133
Persephone

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Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

A bit of an interesting art style, but still sexy.  Loghain-Rowan

*pic snipped for boobage*

Stolen Moment

The artist admits the hair is too red for Rowan.  Works for Ellie, though.  Image IPB


As does her playing with his unbraided hair. I thought of that immediately. <3


That!!! And I also though of Elissa from "Cartography" (Still my fave Loghain fic EVER. Closely followed by The Lion Of Orlais Saga and The Arrangement) :wub:

#5134
Addai

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Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

A bit of an interesting art style, but still sexy.  Loghain-Rowan

*pic snipped for boobage*

Stolen Moment

The artist admits the hair is too red for Rowan.  Works for Ellie, though.  Image IPB


As does her playing with his unbraided hair. I thought of that immediately. <3

LOL  Female minds work alike, apparently.  Image IPB

#5135
alschemid

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Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

As does her playing with his unbraided hair.

I guess undoing his braids has turned into a fetish by now. :wub:

#5136
Persephone

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alschemid wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

As does her playing with his unbraided hair.

I guess undoing his braids has turned into a fetish by now. :wub:


:innocent::innocent::happy::happy::wub::wub::devil::devil: Too true.

#5137
CalJones

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Apparently braids are manly in Fereldan. I have this funny mental image of Sten, Loghain and Zevran sat around the camp fire, braiding their hair, and Oghren braiding his beard.

#5138
Addai

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CalJones wrote...

Apparently braids are manly in Fereldan. I have this funny mental image of Sten, Loghain and Zevran sat around the camp fire, braiding their hair, and Oghren braiding his beard.

I don't think they're uncommon among warrior males in numerous cultures, as is long hair in general.  It's just as practical as frequently cutting your hair to keep it short.  Though there's a fanart of Loghain, I think it's one of Maeves Child's, with Loghain in short hair that is pretty sexy.

Still, I'll always be a fan of medieval/ ancient warrior men and their long hair.  It's the Buliwyf factor!  On a related note, Jon SnowImage IPB

#5139
Persephone

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Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Apparently braids are manly in Fereldan. I have this funny mental image of Sten, Loghain and Zevran sat around the camp fire, braiding their hair, and Oghren braiding his beard.

I don't think they're uncommon among warrior males in numerous cultures, as is long hair in general.  It's just as practical as frequently cutting your hair to keep it short.  Though there's a fanart of Loghain, I think it's one of Maeves Child's, with Loghain in short hair that is pretty sexy.

Still, I'll always be a fan of medieval/ ancient warrior men and their long hair.  It's the Buliwyf factor!  On a related note, Jon SnowImage IPB


*Coughs* Braveheart! :wub::wub::wub::wub:

#5140
Morwen Eledhwen

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alschemid wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

As does her playing with his unbraided hair.

I guess undoing his braids has turned into a fetish by now. :wub:


Well Addai hit on it in her ff, there is something very intimate about it, especially if the braiding is considered to be a warrior thing. It's another piece of his "armor" that she gets to remove --and the piece that almost no one else sees him without. Not sure if you chose the phrase with all of its meanings and sub-meanings in mind, Addai, but Loghain's "submitting once again to disassembly" as Ellie undoes his braids is a very apt way to put it, both physically and metaphorically.

#5141
Morwen Eledhwen

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CalJones wrote...

Apparently braids are manly in Fereldan. I have this funny mental image of Sten, Loghain and Zevran sat around the camp fire, braiding their hair, and Oghren braiding his beard.


Hahaha. . .and Leliana trying to "help" with new style ideas and accessories and stuff. "Get away from me with that ribbon, woman!!" "But it's so pretty and it matches your eyes! :happy:"

#5142
Addai

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Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Well Addai hit on it in her ff, there is something very intimate about it, especially if the braiding is considered to be a warrior thing. It's another piece of his "armor" that she gets to remove --and the piece that almost no one else sees him without. Not sure if you chose the phrase with all of its meanings and sub-meanings in mind, Addai, but Loghain's "submitting once again to disassembly" as Ellie undoes his braids is a very apt way to put it, both physically and metaphorically.

I actually paused longer over the idea of him laying his head in her lap.  I thought, "would Loghain do that?"  It's a very submissive thing.  Decided he would since she was asking him to, but be embarrassed about it.  If someone walked in and saw them I guess he would be more embarrassed by that than he would about getting caught in flagrante.

I do wish Gaider had actually written a Loghain-Rowan love scene.  It's all a shot in the dark here, no pun intended.

On an angst-related note, it's strange having my own words quoted back to me.  Somehow the internet makes you think no one is actually reading your stuff and it's an odd, horrifying thing to think someone actually is.  LOL

#5143
Morwen Eledhwen

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Addai67 wrote...

I actually paused longer over the idea of him laying his head in her lap.  I thought, "would Loghain do that?"  It's a very submissive thing.  Decided he would since she was asking him to, but be embarrassed about it.  If someone walked in and saw them I guess he would be more embarrassed by that than he would about getting caught in flagrante.


I think you hit it. I doubt that he would be the type to be like "No way am I putting my head in your lap! It's so not macho!". After all, he did try to tend that rose bush that one time. . .but yes, if someone had walked in I'd imagine lots of embarrassment and facepalming, not to mention coughing and averted eyes.

On an angst-related note, it's strange having my own words quoted back to me.  Somehow the internet makes you think no one is actually reading your stuff and it's an odd, horrifying thing to think someone actually is.  LOL


Haha. . .try having it read out loud --and then discussed-- by a group of other people while you're in the room. That happened to me in a creative writing class I took and it was really weird to hear someone else's voice read my words. Especially since their voice conveyed their interpretation of what it was I was trying to say, which in some cases matched mine and in some cases sounded completely different from how I heard it in my head. I literally wanted to crawl under the table.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 04 novembre 2010 - 08:07 .


#5144
CalJones

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Well I have to say I'm enjoying your fic immensely - aren't we due for another chapter soon? *looks hopeful*

#5145
Addai

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CalJones wrote...

Well I have to say I'm enjoying your fic immensely - aren't we due for another chapter soon? *looks hopeful*

Mine?  Uh... this weekend prolly.  The flu slowed me down this past week and I'm just starting to feel human again.

#5146
Addai

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Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

I think you hit it. I doubt that he would be the type to be like "No way am I putting my head in your lap! It's so not macho!". After all, he did try to tend that rose bush that one time. . .but yes, if someone had walked in I'd imagine lots of embarrassment and facepalming, not to mention coughing and averted eyes.

Yep, a detail that says a lot.

Haha. . .try having it read out loud --and then discussed-- by a group of other people while you're in the room. That happened to me in a creative writing class I took and it was really weird to hear someone else's voice read my words. Especially since their voice conveyed their interpretation of what it was I was trying to say, which in some cases matched mine and in some cases sounded completely different from how I heard it in my head. I literally wanted to crawl under the table.

It was a long time ago, but I did take some creative writing workshops and know exactly what you mean.  It's like someone rummaging in your unders drawer.

#5147
Asepsis

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@ Morwen: What really? They do that? I wanted to take a creative writing course but not so much after reading your post. 0.0

#5148
Morwen Eledhwen

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It probably depends on the course, I don't suppose it happens in all of them. I had no idea that it was going to happen to me until the instructor started passing back our latest work and I realized he was passing them back to the wrong people, on purpose --so that they could be read aloud and discussed with no one except the reader and the author knowing which one of us wrote it.

#5149
Aedral

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I, personally, have never let Loghain live. He is solely responsible for the death of almost every Warden, after talking with a few of the guards I also feel he was solely responsible for the Darkspawn getting into the tower and almost killing me and Alistar. No matter his past heroism in the books, or his past deeds nothing can make up for the hundreds of lives he sacrificed just for his mad quest for power. Then his actions once he gained power: selling elves into slavery (my attachment to all forms of elves might make that more important to me), imprisoning his own daughter, along with condoning the torture and murder of his detractors... I almost felt death would be not harsh enough, but I figured, he betrayed Maric once, and betrayers rarely ever stop save through death. So Loghain was killed by my hand, so he could never again cause death on such a scale.

#5150
Rykoth

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Addai67 wrote...

Rykoth wrote...
But much as I can't stand the Alistair love, I can't stand the Loghain Love either :P

You're apparently very concerned about what other players like.  I take it you would have us confine our enthusiasm for... who?  Sten?  Dog?


I'm pretty sure debate is just that... debate, that's a bit unfair to say that :P

Modifié par Rykoth, 05 novembre 2010 - 10:15 .