12857 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

Heh heh, let's all stuff Wulfram in a sack and push him down a hill.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, that's technically not a coup, If Cailan relents to Loghain's wishes (who is Teyrn, general of Ferelden's armies and Cailan's closest advisor). A coup is by definition the overthrow of a government.

But if - really when - Cailan did not relent to Loghain's wishes, then Loghain was planning a coup

When Cailan's ability to make his own decision is removed, his government is overthrown, whether or not he is left on the throne as a puppet to provide legitimacy to the Mac Tir regime.

[Sarah1281]

If Cailan has led Ferelden to victory, despite Loghains public disagreement, he will be in a far better position to stand up for himself. While if Cailan leads Ferelden to disaster at Ostagar against Loghain's advice, then he would have little credibility.

Everyone blamed Loghain for Ostagar failing instead of Cailan. Since Loghain was the general who planned everything and did all the work, why would everyone praise Cailan for winning had that happened?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
But if - really when - Cailan did not relent to Loghain's wishes, then Loghain was planning a coup

There is no evidence for that. We don't know how much Loghain would have tried to convince Cailan. All we know is that he removed Eamon from the way temporarily, to confront Cailan. Whether he was planing for removing him by force, is something we do not know.

Could he have done it? It's possible and even likely. But we don't know for sure.

Wulfram wrote...
When Cailan's ability to make his own decision is removed, his government is overthrown, whether or not he is left on the throne as a puppet to provide legitimacy to the Mac Tir regime.

No, it is not. You are not using the word correctly.
It might be called usurpation. But it is not a coup d'etat.

[Bruddajakka]

I'm still of the impression that the reasons he had Eamon poisoned is due to him conspiring against Anora. There may have been more but that was the key one in any event.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
But if - really when - Cailan did not relent to Loghain's wishes, then Loghain was planning a coup

There is no evidence for that. We don't know how much Loghain would have tried to convince Cailan. All we know is that he removed Eamon from the way temporarily, to confront Cailan. Whether he was planing for removing him by force, is something we do not know.

Could he have done it? It's possible and even likely. But we don't know for sure.

Come on.  You're saying that he poisoned a senior noble and tried to form an alliance with the mages - a purely military asset - so he could have a polite chat?

Wulfram wrote...
When Cailan's ability to make his own decision is removed, his government is overthrown, whether or not he is left on the throne as a puppet to provide legitimacy to the Mac Tir regime.

No, it is not. You are not using the word correctly.
It might be called usurpation. But it is not a coup d'etat.

A General marches with some soldiers into the president's office, holds a weapon to his head and demands that he follows his orders.  That is a coup, plain and simple, and it is what Loghain was planning.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
Come on.  You're saying that he poisoned a senior noble and tried to form an alliance with the mages - a purely military asset - so he could have a polite chat?

The alliance with magesis to fight the darkspawn and a possible Orlesian invasion.
Removing Eamon is removing a "bad influence". Yes, I do believe Loghain wanted to convince cailan and if not, coerce him.

We have no eivdence that he wanted to voerthrow him.

A General marches with some soldiers into the president's office, holds a weapon to his head and demands that he follows his orders.  That is a coup, plain and simple, and it is what Loghain was planning.

No, it's not, you are using the word wrong.

A Coup D'Etat is the sudden violent overthrow of a government.

The word you are looking for is usurpation, which is taking and excersizing power that belongs to someone else, without necessarily removing or overthrowing him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 novembre 2010 - 07:56 .

[Bruddajakka]

And we don't know for a fact that Loghain made his alliance with Uldred before Ostagar. It's most likely that he did on the return to Denerim.

[Wulfram]

KoP - I think we're just arguing semantics here.



We both agree that when his attempts to persuade Cailan failed, he would have threatened and likely used force to make him comply, yes?



I'd call that a coup, but it doesn't really matter what we call it.



@bruddajakka This is what Gaider said about the Tower of Ishual

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time

That seems to strongly imply that they were working together before the battle

[Addai]

Bruddajakka wrote...

And we don't know for a fact that Loghain made his alliance with Uldred before Ostagar. It's most likely that he did on the return to Denerim.

I believe Gaider has confirmed that, in fact, though the resident experts can probably tell you better.  Edit:  It would also make more sense, since he probably learned about Uldred from Jowan.  He might already have talked to him at Ostagar, though.

2nd edit:  Yes, Wulfram has the quote.  They had at least talked at Ostagar.  But I interpret it as an alliance they made while in Ostagar, after Loghain had learned from Jowan that Uldred was stirring up trouble in the Circle.  That would have highlighted Uldred as a potential ally.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 novembre 2010 - 08:14 .

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

*Points at new avatar* Say hello to Rhiannon. (She looks sooooooooo much better on screenies & in game) :innocent:

Hey!  I think she looks fine there.  A mage, right?  (I really want to read your story...  I'm so tempted...)

[Addai]

Aeowyn wrote...

No, I meant Uldred's negotiation with Loghain and how I believe the Circle would've been fine if Wynne hadn't revealed "Loghain's treachery" to Irving.
When you speak to Niall in the Fade, I got the impression that he became an abomination at the meeting.

I gather that that is when he revealed himself as an abomination, but just as you see him first in the Tower, he can look like a normal person when he wants to.

I'm not sure if we can blame Wynne there.  Uldred was already planning a takeover, he just took the political unrest post-Ostagar as his chance to make a move.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 novembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

KoP - I think we're just arguing semantics here.

We both agree that when his attempts to persuade Cailan failed, he would have threatened and likely used force to make him comply, yes?

It's very likely. We can't really know for sure though. 
Loghain  might not have even planned that far ahead, for all we know.

And that's a mistake. Loghain should have considered removing Cailan long before that.

[Costin_Razvan]

And that's a mistake. Loghain should have considered removing Cailan long before that.

No, not considered but actually done it. Just some Darkspawn blood in his food and he would die from the infection, and none could blame Loghain now could they?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 novembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[CalJones]

Not a bad idea, Costin. "Here, have some of this tasty meat pie."

[sylvanaerie]

With Loghain's luck?  Cailan would survive to be a Grey Warden

[KnightofPhoenix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

With Loghain's luck?  Cailan would survive to be a Grey Warden

That would be like Cailan's wildest fantasies coming true. The first Warden king in history....glorious....<_<

[sylvanaerie]

INDEED!! LOL I can just see the little head shake with it !

[Aeowyn]

Hm, but technically, if he became a Warden wouldn't he have to give up his previous life? No King on throne, Anora becomes Queen, Cailan gets eaten by the Archdemon. Win - win?

[sylvanaerie]

Aeowyn wrote...

Hm, but technically, if he became a Warden wouldn't he have to give up his previous life? No King on throne, Anora becomes Queen, Cailan gets eaten by the Archdemon. Win - win?

Just debated lose lose with KoP in Ali thread...I have to agree this would be win/win

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...

Hm, but technically, if he became a Warden wouldn't he have to give up his previous life? No King on throne, Anora becomes Queen, Cailan gets eaten by the Archdemon. Win - win?

In theory and generally. In practise, Alistair can be king as a Warden.

But yea feeding Cailan to the archdemon would be nice. He gets his glory. We get rid of him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 novembre 2010 - 10:37 .

[Aeowyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Hm, but technically, if he became a Warden wouldn't he have to give up his previous life? No King on throne, Anora becomes Queen, Cailan gets eaten by the Archdemon. Win - win?

In theory and generally. In practise, Alistair can be king as a Warden.

But yea feeding Cailan to the archdemon would be nice. He gets his glory. We get rid of him.

Yes that's one of the things that really annoys me with the story. Duncan gives you this whole speech of how to cut your ties to your previous life because you are a Grey Warden and a Grey Warden only, and then Eamon comes with the "Hey let's put Alistair on the throne" - bs. Really wished you had the option to say "He's a Grey Warden, no puppet on the throne for you."

[KnightofPhoenix]

That is also one of the reasons why I do not like putting Alistair on the throne. It would look like putting the Wardens in control. A Warden Prince Consort might be setting a precedent, but it's not like a full reigning monarch.

[Sarah1281]

Aeowyn wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Hm, but technically, if he became a Warden wouldn't he have to give up his previous life? No King on throne, Anora becomes Queen, Cailan gets eaten by the Archdemon. Win - win?

In theory and generally. In practise, Alistair can be king as a Warden.

But yea feeding Cailan to the archdemon would be nice. He gets his glory. We get rid of him.

Yes that's one of the things that really annoys me with the story. Duncan gives you this whole speech of how to cut your ties to your previous life because you are a Grey Warden and a Grey Warden only, and then Eamon comes with the "Hey let's put Alistair on the throne" - bs. Really wished you had the option to say "He's a Grey Warden, no puppet on the throne for you."

That is a policy that Wardens are supposed to have and that Duncan takes very seriously but there's no reason to think that the rest of Thedas has the same no-titled Warden policy as the Wardens themselves do/are supposed to.

[phaonica]

Aeowyn wrote...

Yes that's one of the things that really annoys me with the story. Duncan gives you this whole speech of how to cut your ties to your previous life because you are a Grey Warden and a Grey Warden only, and then Eamon comes with the "Hey let's put Alistair on the throne" - bs. Really wished you had the option to say "He's a Grey Warden, no puppet on the throne for you."

And of course the PC Warden can set themselves up to be king or queen, too. The Ferelden Warden rules seem to be whatever you want them to be.