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[Aeowyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I concur. At least Loghain had an army and a plan (getting mages and dwarves to help). What were the bannorn and Teagan (the idiot who could have been the arl of redcliff and saved us a lot of precious time) planning? Nothing really.  But that's politics. It forces us to be patient with idiots and sadly Loghain does not have that kind patience.

Kind of like the same thing with the Amaranthine conspirators. Do they really think they can protect Amaranthine if they kill the Warden?

Outlawing the Grey Wardens is what you call a plan?  An astute leader is a student of history.  Loghain had studied only one chapter:  the Orlesian occupation.  If he could see anything past his own obsessions, he would have seen that no one had ever defeated a Blight without the mediation of Grey Wardens and several nations.  Outlawing the Wardens is like deciding to kill Delta Force and the Seals because you think they're foreign agents.  Have a happy Blight...

You mean the same Wardens that haven't done anything for 400 years?
An astute leader also deals with facts in front of them and not only stories. 
What facts do we know about the Wardens? Nothing. Yes, they were instrumental in defeating preivious blights, but it's not clear they were necessary. Much of the fighting was done by Orlais and Tevinter. WE know nothing about them being tainted, thus necessary. 

Also, it was not even clear this was a Blight, even Cailan doubted. Only the WArdens know for usre, which brings us back to square one. How do we know that the Wardens are necessary and only they know when a blight comes.

History tells us nothing about why the Wardens are necessary or even if they are necessary, or if they can feel a blight before time. What it does say is that the Wardens were instrumental in fighting the blight. That's it. The rest is covered with myths and legends of the kind people like Cailan and Wynne believe in, and it's not something astute leaders would take without a large grain of salt.   

Yes but that still leaves us with the question how Loghain would handle the situation once the Archdemon appeared and it was apparent that it was after all a Blight? Yes they could kill the Archdemon, but it would still come back over and over again, just like what happened during the First Blight, and from what I gather one of the main reasons for it taking place in a 200 year time span.
Would he let the Wardens from Orlais arrive by that point? Or just be stubborn as?

And regarding the Eamon/Teagan calling for Landsmeet post (don't want to double post): Do you reckon the Nobles would gather if Teagan called for the Landsmeet? His brother was more respected and "famous" and I reckon that was one of the reasons the Nobles gathered.
Or is it that you must gather whenever the Landsmeet is called, period? If that is the case then ignore me

Modifié par Aeowyn, 30 août 2010 - 10:19 .

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I concur. At least Loghain had an army and a plan (getting mages and dwarves to help). What were the bannorn and Teagan (the idiot who could have been the arl of redcliff and saved us a lot of precious time) planning? Nothing really.  But that's politics. It forces us to be patient with idiots and sadly Loghain does not have that kind patience.

Kind of like the same thing with the Amaranthine conspirators. Do they really think they can protect Amaranthine if they kill the Warden?

Outlawing the Grey Wardens is what you call a plan?  An astute leader is a student of history.  Loghain had studied only one chapter:  the Orlesian occupation.  If he could see anything past his own obsessions, he would have seen that no one had ever defeated a Blight without the mediation of Grey Wardens and several nations.  Outlawing the Wardens is like deciding to kill Delta Force and the Seals because you think they're foreign agents.  Have a happy Blight...

You mean the same Wardens that haven't done anything for 400 years?

They did do something. They almost got Maric killed. Yet another reason for Loghain to distrust them.

I don't think anyone's arguing that outlawing the Wardens is a good plan, only that there is reason for Loghain to be skeptical. And not only that, but Loghain did not act out of his own selfish interest or false paranoia. He has every reason to be worried about a previous occupant setting foot in his country.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...
Yes but that still leaves us with the question how Loghain would handle the situation once the Archdemon appeared and it was apparent that it was after all a Blight? Yes they could kill the Archdemon, but it would still come back over and over again, just like what happened during the First Blight, and from what I gather one of the main reasons for it taking place in a 200 year time span.
Would he let the Wardens from Orlais arrive by that point? Or just be stubborn as?

That is a good question. I don't really know.
By the end, Loghain seemed to have realised that this is a blight. But he is still not convinced that Wardens are necessary. He was committed to his course and I would say it has a lot to do with being stubborn. But really, who really knows that only Wardens can kill Archdemons and why? No one, not even us and Alistair I might add.   

But he does not object to Orlesian reinforcements that the monarch request at redcliff, if made a Warden. Though this could probably be game limitation 
 

Aeowyn wrote...
And regarding the Eamon/Teagan calling for Landsmeet post (don't want to double post): Do you reckon the Nobles would gather if Teagan called for the Landsmeet? His brother was more respected and "famous" and I reckon that was one of the reasons the Nobles gathered.
Or is it that you must gather whenever the Landsmeet is called, period? If that is the case then ignore me

The codex does say that Teagan was also famous and well respected in the bannorn. So even if he isn't as famous as his brother, I think he could have called for a Landmseet regardless, especially if he became the Arl of Redcliff, since Eamon is sick and his only heir Connor is dead or too young.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I concur. At least Loghain had an army and a plan (getting mages and dwarves to help). What were the bannorn and Teagan (the idiot who could have been the arl of redcliff and saved us a lot of precious time) planning? Nothing really.  But that's politics. It forces us to be patient with idiots and sadly Loghain does not have that kind patience.

Kind of like the same thing with the Amaranthine conspirators. Do they really think they can protect Amaranthine if they kill the Warden?

Outlawing the Grey Wardens is what you call a plan?  An astute leader is a student of history.  Loghain had studied only one chapter:  the Orlesian occupation.  If he could see anything past his own obsessions, he would have seen that no one had ever defeated a Blight without the mediation of Grey Wardens and several nations.  Outlawing the Wardens is like deciding to kill Delta Force and the Seals because you think they're foreign agents.  Have a happy Blight...

You mean the same Wardens that haven't done anything for 400 years?
An astute leader also deals with facts in front of them and not only stories. 
What facts do we know about the Wardens? Nothing. Yes, they were instrumental in defeating preivious blights, but it's not clear they were necessary. Much of the fighting was done by Orlais and Tevinter. WE know nothing about them being tainted, thus necessary. 

Also, it was not even clear this was a Blight, even Cailan doubted. Only the WArdens know for usre, which brings us back to square one. How do we know that the Wardens are necessary and only they know when a blight comes.

History tells us nothing about why the Wardens are necessary or even if they are necessary, or if they can feel a blight before time. What it does say is that the Wardens were instrumental in fighting the blight. That's it. The rest is covered with myths and legends of the kind people like Cailan and Wynne believe in, and it's not something astute leaders would take without a large grain of salt.   

Yet several NPCs, including Zevran and Flemeth, manage to work out that all 4 Blights were defeated only when Grey Wardens were involved.  This was how the order started, after all, when so much of the world was ravaged in the first Blight that someone finally realized a "plan B" was needed.

As for Loghain not knowing it was a Blight... much, much larger horde in Ostagar than expected... Tower of Ishal taken, indicating strategic planning...

This is supposed to be a great strategist.  He knew, he just didn't want to know.

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

I was wondering if there were some precedent in Ferelden history. Poor wording. And I understand what you're saying, but how many people really did think Loghain murdered Cailan? A fortuitous withdrawal is not murder, sometimes it's just smart. The nobles never really warmed to Loghain anyway, so was it more a question of trust or just not wanting to see Loghain commanding Ferelden, if even for a short time?

I think there are lots of seemingly not-practical reasons to oppose Loghain's claim to the regency. All I meant to say was that there is at least one good reason I could think of to support having a civil war rather than just uniting until the darkspawn incursion is defeated, and that had to do with the fear of being powerless to legally oppose him after the fact. It doesn't mean I think it's a good enough reason, just that it's a good reason.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

They did do something. They almost got Maric killed. Yet another reason for Loghain to distrust them.

I don't think anyone's arguing that outlawing the Wardens is a good plan, only that there is reason for Loghain to be skeptical. And not only that, but Loghain did not act out of his own selfish interest or false paranoia. He has every reason to be worried about a previous occupant setting foot in his country.

Maric who went along with them willingly?

I agree that he has a legitimate right to be concerned about the Orlesians.  My argument earlier was that his concern about the Orlesians is very much like the bannorn saying "we will not bow just because you demand it."

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Yet several NPCs, including Zevran and Flemeth, manage to work out that all 4 Blights were defeated only when Grey Wardens were involved.  This was how the order started, after all, when so much of the world was ravaged in the first Blight that someone finally realized a "plan B" was needed.

The Wardens also think that a Warden has to sacrifice their life to end the Blight, and that turned out to be untrue. Even the Wardens themselves don't have all the answers about the Blight and the Archdemon.

As for Loghain not knowing it was a Blight... much, much larger horde in Ostagar than expected... Tower of Ishal taken, indicating strategic planning...

This is supposed to be a great strategist.  He knew, he just didn't want to know.

Duncan could barely manage to convince Cailan that this was a Blight, let alone Loghain, and Cailan *wanted* this to be a Blight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Yet several NPCs, including Zevran and Flemeth, manage to work out that all 4 Blights were defeated only when Grey Wardens were involved.  This was how the order started, after all, when so much of the world was ravaged in the first Blight that someone finally realized a "plan B" was needed.

Flemeth? Seriously? You expect Loghain to know what a I don't know how old very powerful abomination knows?
And Zevran didn't seem to have a problem trying to kill the Warden (both with Talisen and without), so I doubt he actually knew what he's talking about. 

You are talking about hsitory that is thousands of years before. How do you know this is not embellished stories and myths? We in the real world are not even sure of our own hsitory a few decades before, so how about thousands of years?   

Addai67 wrote...As for Loghain not knowing it was a Blight... much, much larger horde in Ostagar than expected... Tower of Ishal taken, indicating strategic planning...

This is supposed to be a great strategist.  He knew, he just didn't want to know.

Loghain does not know that the Tower was taken.

Ferelden had 0 experience with the darkspawn, how should he know that darkspawn can't coordinate without an archdemon? Also, the darkspawn do display intelligence without an archdemon. They continously raid in the Anderfels and if they are supposedely that stupid, the Wardens there would have annihilated them with ease. 

This whole "darkspawn can't think without an archdemon" is meeh. They do have tribes and leaders who can coordinate a bunch of them. And codex speaks of very old darkspawn who can even talk if I remember correctly, contrary to what Awakening says. Only the Archdemon can rally *all* the darkspawn. Which wasn't clear at that point since the majority of the darkpawn were massing in the deep roads as we saw when we got there. 

And all this requires indepth knowledge about the darkspawn that Loghain could not have had. He could not have known anything about them.  

I do beliebve it was a mistake on his part to completely reject the Wardens. What I would have done is reject the Orlesian reinforcements, and only allow the Wardens in and throw them at the frontlines, if only to make sure they are not plotting. 
But I understand why Loghain made that mistake. If the Wardens were not shrouded in so much secrecy, perhaps this owuld have never happened. Not that I blame them for being secret. 

And I am not even mentioning the fact that Wardens tried to pull a coup in Ferelden and that there was nothing stopping them from trying to do so again or participate in one with Orlesians. 
  

[KnightofPhoenix]

MariSkep wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Yet several NPCs, including Zevran and Flemeth, manage to work out that all 4 Blights were defeated only when Grey Wardens were involved.  This was how the order started, after all, when so much of the world was ravaged in the first Blight that someone finally realized a "plan B" was needed.

Flemeth? Seriously? You expect Loghain to know what a I don't know how old very powerful abomination knows?
And Zevran didn't seem to have a problem trying to kill the Warden (both with Talisen and without), so I doubt he actually knew what he's talking about. 

You are talking about hsitory that is thousands of years before. How do you know this is not embellished stories and myths? We in the real world are not even sure of our own hsitory a few decades before, so how about thousands of years?   

It's fairly straight forward. Every time a Blight pops up it lasts until a Grey Warden defeats it. Doesn't really take all that much to figure out Wardens play some kind of unique role in the defeat of a Blight. If it were a question of simply being a skilled general or truly epic warrior, then you'd expect there never to have been any need for the Grey Wardens. After all, I doubt the ancient world was in need of great generals and mighty warriors. Yet it was always a grey Warden to kill the Archdemon.

Maybe it's just hindesight :/

This is a leap in logic.
While that shows that the Wardens are probably instrumental or useful. It does not prove they are necessary.
Also, you can't be sure of what really happened in those blights that occured many centuries before. For all you know, it's just exagerrated myths.  
 
It was a mistake on his part to reject them completely, that I do not deny. But it is equally a mistake to accept them with open arms and blind devotion a la Cailan.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 août 2010 - 11:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

It's hindsight bias, such that you automatically connect dots that apply even when they wouldn't necessarily deserve to be on their own.



'A' Grey Warden has never defeated a Blight. Grey Wardens have always needed the help of many armies of non-Wardens, and it's those nations who have done the heavy lifting in the overall fighting. That a Grey Warden has delivered a final blow does not necessitate that only a Grey Warden can deliver a final blow: given that there have only been four Blights, and the Wardens have always thrown themselves at the thickest parts of them (ie, where the ArchDemon lies), that a Warden has ridden the Dragon each time (if that fact is even known about the first two Blights) can easily be explained as a Warden being in the right place at the right time.



A Grey Warden being present at the end of each Blight is as unsurprising as a fireman being present at a fire. The correlation is expected, but it does not imply causation.

[Addai]

Regardless, you don't take your Special Forces trained in a particular mode of fighting againt a particular enemy and *outlaw them* while you're being invaded by said enemy. Someone mentioned shortsightedness, idiots etc.?

Modifié par Addai67, 31 août 2010 - 12:32 .

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Regardless, you don't take your Special Forces trained in a particular mode of fighting againt a particular enemy and *outlaw them* while you're being invaded by said enemy. Someone mentioned shortsightedness, idiots etc.?

There is no particular mode of killing darkspawn. Anyone with a weapon can do it. Loghain undoubtedly noticed that his soldiers were cutting through them just as easily as the Wardens. Depending on the level of training the Wardens had, Loghain's soldiers might have even been better. Loghain has no reason to think the Wardens are anything more than an outdated order of warriors. There is a particular method to defeating a blight and killing an archdemon, and as it's been said, not many besides the Wardens were convinced that it was a true blight at Ostagar.

[Addai]

The Wardens are elite forces. Loghain knows this. He'll talk about various Wardens he knew who were the finest warriors yadda yadda. Regardless, it is not really stupidity that led him to his pass but the need for a scapegoat. He just didn't know what an epic facepalm awaited him if he actually succeeded in eradicating the Wardens.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

The Wardens are elite forces. Loghain knows this. He'll talk about various Wardens he knew who were the finest warriors yadda yadda. Regardless, it is not really stupidity that led him to his pass but the need for a scapegoat. He just didn't know what an epic facepalm awaited him if he actually succeeded in eradicating the Wardens.

They are fine warriors, but they're still no better at killing darkspawn than you are heading into the Wilds at level 4 and still not a Warden. And the character doesn't know either until you talk to Riordan at Redcliffe. Up until that point all you're doing is trying recruit allies, stop a civil war, and redeem the Grey Wardens. The character has absolutely no idea what it takes to kill an Archdemon. How can Loghain be blamed for something not even the character knows?

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Wardens are not necessarily elite forces. Most of them are talented, but that doesn't necessarily qualify them as elite. Their only *real* advantage is sensing darkspawn (also their greatest weakness, as darkspawn can detect their movement) and their immunity to the taint. And seeing how Loghain does not know why / how, there is little reason for him to believe that they can indeed sense darkspawn. In fact, judging by Alistair, that ability to sense darkspawn...well doesn't exist really and seems only useful to feel the archdemon.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 août 2010 - 03:08 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Wardens are not necessarily elite forces. Most of them are talented, but that doesn't necessarily qualify them as elite. Their only *real* advantage is sensing darkspawn (also their greatest weakness, as darkspawn can detect their movement) and their immunity to the taint. And seeing how Loghain does not know why, there is little reason for him to believe that they can sense darkspawn. In fact, judging by Alistair, that ability to sense darkspawn...well doesn't exist really and seems only useful to feel the archdemon.

This reminds me: I know you don't have time because the battle takes place very soon afterwards, but I know that Bhelen, at least, referred to you 'forgetting your training' if you say he's exaggerating about darkspawn being the fulcrum of true evil. Are GW supposed to have some sort of special training or are they really just a mismatched collection of the best and most desperate warriors recruiters can find? 

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite forces are hardly indispensable or irreplaceable. Their value is in their efficiency, not their indespensibility. To mix a metaphor, the annuls of history are filled with long-gone indespensible orders.

In fact, many wars in history have been lost by too much reliance and faith in supposedly 'elite' forces. The largely forgotten belief that French élan would win WW1 in a matter of months. The idea that the German superior men would win the next. The American assumption that they could win Vietnam with advisors and special forces.

Special forces are sexy, and they certainly are useful, but you can't win a war only with them, while you can win a (conventional) war without them.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 31 août 2010 - 03:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 I know that Bhelen, at least, referred to you 'forgetting your training' if you say he's exaggerating about darkspawn being the fulcrum of true evil. Are GW supposed to have some sort of special training or are they really just a mismatched collection of the best and most desperate warriors recruiters can find? 

I think by training, he meant debriefing (and they don't do much of that either aparently). I don't t think it takes special kind of training to know that the darkspawn need to be stopped. In fact, Riordan pretty much tells you that being curious about them is useless and all you need to know is just "kill kill kill" them.

Alistair for instance didn't seem to have recieved much training. Except in drinking contests.
Orlesian Wardens failed epicly in Amarantine. They weren't that impressive in the DN. 

I personally don't think there is a lot of actual training involved. The Wardens, Jory and Daveth (had they survived) just needed to go get some blood and drink it and that's all it took them to become Wardens.  Jory, well he's a knight so he ought to be a good fighter, but Daveth? He might be talented but what does he know about war?   

So I do think they are a collection of the most talented, rather than people who are trained to become Wardens.
Wardens seem to be selected, not trained. And whatever training they recieve is most likely their own personal experience.   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 août 2010 - 03:23 .

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Special forces are sexy, and they certainly are useful, but you can't win a war only with them, while you can win a (conventional) war without them.

Who's saying you win only with them?

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Wardens are not necessarily elite forces. Most of them are talented, but that doesn't necessarily qualify them as elite. Their only *real* advantage is sensing darkspawn (also their greatest weakness, as darkspawn can detect their movement) and their immunity to the taint. And seeing how Loghain does not know why / how, there is little reason for him to believe that they can indeed sense darkspawn. In fact, judging by Alistair, that ability to sense darkspawn...well doesn't exist really and seems only useful to feel the archdemon.

That contradicts what Bryce and Duncan both say of them, and the entire premise of the game which is that only the Warden can save the universe.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Wardens are not necessarily elite forces. Most of them are talented, but that doesn't necessarily qualify them as elite. Their only *real* advantage is sensing darkspawn (also their greatest weakness, as darkspawn can detect their movement) and their immunity to the taint. And seeing how Loghain does not know why / how, there is little reason for him to believe that they can indeed sense darkspawn. In fact, judging by Alistair, that ability to sense darkspawn...well doesn't exist really and seems only useful to feel the archdemon.

That contradicts what Bryce and Duncan both say of them, and the entire premise of the game which is that only the Warden can save the universe.

Quote what you think contradicts what I said. Duncan never mentioned training that I can recall. Alistair doesn't either.
And we know why only the Wardens can save the universe. Because they are tainted, thus the only people who can kill the Archdemon. Period. How does this mean that they are an uber elite commando order?
 
And we are back at square one. Loghain does not know why and how only the Wardens can kill the archdemon, which was the whole point of the discussion. We are going back in circles.

[Addai]

Duncan says the Wardens take only the best fighters. He says it in almost all the origins.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Duncan says the Wardens take only the best fighters. He says it in almost all the origins.

Does Daveth, a thief, really sound like elite squad member material?

No one is denying that most recruits are talented in one way or the other. But what does Daveth, for example, know about war for him to be qualified as an elite?

And key word. "Take". As in they don't train. When I imagine "elite", I think of intense training to earn that title.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 août 2010 - 04:51 .