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[roundcrow]

I dreamed last night about finding a volume of Emily Dickinson's poetry entirely about Maric and Loghain. Who knew she wrote fanfic?

[Addai]

roundcrow wrote...

I dreamed last night about finding a volume of Emily Dickinson's poetry entirely about Maric and Loghain. Who knew she wrote fanfic?

LOL!  I'd try to write a Maric-Loghain poem in Emily Dickinson style but I'm not talented enough.

Beware those DA dreams, beware.    Maric and Loghain are invading people's BRAINS!

[roundcrow]

Addai67 wrote...

roundcrow wrote...

I dreamed last night about finding a volume of Emily Dickinson's poetry entirely about Maric and Loghain. Who knew she wrote fanfic?

LOL!  I'd try to write a Maric-Loghain poem in Emily Dickinson style but I'm not talented enough.

she would definitely write dash fiction

[roundcrow]

...sorry, that was terrible. feel free to cast stinging swarm.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

roundcrow wrote...

I dreamed last night about finding a volume of Emily Dickinson's poetry entirely about Maric and Loghain. Who knew she wrote fanfic?

LOL!  I'd try to write a Maric-Loghain poem in Emily Dickinson style but I'm not talented enough.

Beware those DA dreams, beware.    Maric and Loghain are invading people's BRAINS!

The HORROR!!!!! But Addai, if such dreams inspire more stories like yours, I'm all for it!! No Litany Of Adralla!!!

[roundcrow]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

roundcrow wrote...

I dreamed last night about finding a volume of Emily Dickinson's poetry entirely about Maric and Loghain. Who knew she wrote fanfic?

LOL!  I'd try to write a Maric-Loghain poem in Emily Dickinson style but I'm not talented enough.

Beware those DA dreams, beware.    Maric and Loghain are invading people's BRAINS!

The HORROR!!!!! But Addai, if such dreams inspire more stories like yours, I'm all for it!! No Litany Of Adralla!!!

Speaking of books, I was thinking when I was playing the other night that, not to get too tie-in-Harry-Potterish, how much I'd love to read the entirety of Travels of a Chantry Scholar.  

[NuclearSerendipity]

Well, I'm not even sure people are still discussing the original topic... But, at any rate, I'd like to say something about it as well

I wouldn't take it for granted that Loghain is the deepest DAO written character, although I'd say he has a really good shot at it. In some ways, he represents precisely what DAO is about: tough choices, which can turn out completely different from the expected, and which consequences one must face and assume, specially when they go wrong (and it's by showing just how wrong they can go that it's shown how tough they are) . In a way, Loghain's history is the history of all PCs, no matter which: a history of difficult choices in situations which fall far from being "black and white", and which outcomes are never only good or bad and can never be definitely put as one or another, since - as Watchmen's Dr. Manhattan would point out - nothing ever ends: you can never be sure that what is good now won't become bad later, or that what seems good now won't turn out to be bad. No one has the ultimate authority to tell you whether your decision was a "good" or a "bad" one; it's you who has to decide what you think will be good or will be bad to do, what you think will be better or will be worse; therefore, you always face the risk of being mistaken. You have to face the danger of having your choices leading to consequences which go against your intentions, choices which don't turn out to be as good as you expected them to be.

With that said, it seems to me that Loghain is a reminder of what the PCs can themselves become: men which adhered so stubbornly to their own views and, by refusing to see more comprehensively the situations in which they were put, took decisions which failed their intentions. Again, that's what DAO is about: it says precisely that good intentions are not enough: that the world isn't as simple as that, that moral choices aren't as easy as that (which was a really welcomed and desired change from NWN and, to some degree, ME), that good intentions don't guarantee good outcomes, that things are simply way more complex than that. Loghain symbolizes all of those things: I guess it could be said to some extend, if it's not too exaggerated (and it might be), that he is the very personification of the game's story-interactivity concept.

That being said, I must say that I'm not one to take radical views about him. I don't adore him (as much as I really admire how he masterfully represents all these mentioned aspects of the game) nor hate him; but I did believe he deserved a second chance. There's plenty of reasons for that, one of them being precisely that any PC could find his or herself in his place. But I guess that what really made me not kill him in the Landsmeet was simply that it served no purpose but petty vengeance; he was already defeated, and he would hardly represent any more danger to the cause of defeating the darkspawn; he had honestly accepted his defeated and showed to be an honorable men, if a mistaken one. One could argue that it'd do some good to the people he wronged if he was killed; yet, it didn't seem to me that good would justify the "bad" of killing a man who poses no immediate or foreseeable threat, specially for the sake of a selfish desire (retribution is, after all, selfish). That's why I was very disappointed with Alistair when he insisted on killing him, and was even willing to become king just so he could do it. I was already disappointed because I thought Alistair was the kind of guy that wouldn't have any regrets about doing what was necessary, that would fully embrace his duty and not shrink away from whatever it took to do the right thing, but some of the last dialogues before the Landsmeet showed that wasn't the case. And then he fully disappoints me by showing just how juvenile and petty he was, wanting to be king only to kill the man responsible for Duncan's death ('cause it seemed that was what it really was about from the beginning)... But I digress.

Anyway, I spared Loghain and he became a Grey Warden, who sacrificed himself at the end, and showed how much he regretted the mistakes he made and wanted to redeem himself from them. He wasn't "evil", and there are plenty of signs of that: he wasn't selfish, wasn't cruel, wasn't even greedy (he "took" the throne not for the power, but for believing it was what was best for Ferelden); he was simply an idealistic (remember how his daughter said that both her father and husband were idealists), but short-sighted and obsessed man. His objectives were broad and selfless ("the good and freedom of Ferelden") and he always remained true to them; but his grasp of the means to achieve his objectives (leaving the Grey Wardens to die, making them outlaws, etc.), as well as his understanding of what the good of Ferelden was (assuming that the country priority should always be, no matter what circumstances, defending itself against other nations) were short-sighted and simplistic. He had the sight of a general. Not the sight of a leader.

And Loghain was a good general - in fact, one of the best. But being a good general isn't synonymous to being a good leader. A good leader has an understanding on what's good to his people; a good general, on what is good to war. Loghain wasn't a leader: he was a general in a leading position. And so he confounded what was good for the country with what was good for war. War, I mean, as it really was to his eyes - not the fantastic and fancied wars against Evil as it were, but war between nations, "common" war, the ones that really mattered, as opposed to the ones that were overestimated, those that were allegedly to fight an Evil that threatened all, but usually were only so considered by men who lived in fairy tales. That's why he didn't believe the darkspawn were a priority: because he thought that the real war (or the risk of it) against other nations - Orlais above all - was what mattered, not monsters whose actual danger was far overrated by men with a foolish craving for glory and fame, such as he took Cailan to be. (In fact, Cailan had more than once fought darkspawn hoping to find glory by halting a Blight, and that probably played some role in Loghain's underestimating of the darkspawn at Ostagar, specially when he was already skeptical enough of the relevance of the darkspawn incursions). As a General, he was accustomed to war as it really happened, as it normally happened. He was accustomed to regular war. As the general he was, he couldn't see that what was best for Ferelden at that moment wasn't to fight the regular war, but rather the sui generis war against the darkspawn, against the Blight.

And his biggest mistake - in fact, the one responsible for all the bad choices and harmful consequences that came after - was to think that he could be a leader, when he was only fit to be a general.

Of course, that's only my opinion... I might have exposed it somewhat assertively, but that's just for the sake of expressing how it is that I see it. I guess it only gives all the more reasons to consider Loghain the deepest character of DAO, but again, I wouldn't like to go that far and make such a supposition (after all, does it really adds that much to say which character is definitely the deepest?). I guess what I'm trying to say is that love or hate for the character doesn't forfeit one of appreciating just how complex a character Loghain is, and how much he means to the history.

Then again, it's still only my opinion.

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 13 novembre 2010 - 02:23 .

[TJPags]

Just one point to make about killing Loghain. 

The choice to do so is not necesarily one of vengeance.  It can easily be viewed as justice, implementing the death penalty on a person whose crimes you believe justify that.

[DragonRacer13]

Not that anyone really cares, as we are all (myself included) totally and justifiably distracted by the awesomeness that are both Persephone and Addai's stories (which are updated much more quickly and frequently than I am humanly capable of), but Chapter 4 of my own humble contribution to Loghain fanfics is up. Finally. After much Mojave Wasteland distraction, curse it all.

www.fanfiction.net/s/6314394/1/The_Hand_Were_Dealt

[NuclearSerendipity]

TJPags wrote...

Just one point to make about killing Loghain. 

The choice to do so is not necesarily one of vengeance.  It can easily be viewed as justice, implementing the death penalty on a person whose crimes you believe justify that.

Fair enough.  I guess that what I'm implying, at any rate, is that any such law or justice would be ultimately based on vengeance, even if not a personal one (you can be avenging Justice, for example): otherwise, what is it that one obtains from killing the one who commited these crimes? Wouldn't believing that someone's crimes justifiy his or her punishment imply that he or she has to pay for them? But to whom or what is he or she paying? And to what end? Why would someone see it as justifiable, if not for believing there's something or someone that must be compensated for what someone else has done?

Of course, I know that's a controversial point and I don't intend to say I'm sure I'm right about it. I'm just explaining the way I see it, and why I said what I did, but it's not like I expect everyone agrees. On the contrary, it'd be a really interesting point to discuss, and I'm definetely open to it. After all, that's one of the many good things about DAO

[TJPags]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Just one point to make about killing Loghain. 

The choice to do so is not necesarily one of vengeance.  It can easily be viewed as justice, implementing the death penalty on a person whose crimes you believe justify that.

Fair enough.  I guess that what I'm implying, at any rate, is that any such law or justice would be ultimately based on vengeance, even if not a personal one (you can be avenging Justice, for example): otherwise, what is it that one obtains from killing the one who commited these crimes? Wouldn't believing that someone's crimes justifiy his or her punishment imply that he or she has to pay for them? But to whom or what is he or she paying? And to what end? Why would someone see it as justifiable, if not for believing there's something or someone that must be compensated for what someone else has done?

Of course, I know that's a controversial point and I don't intend to say I'm sure I'm right about it. I'm just explaining the way I see it, and why I said what I did, but it's not like I expect everyone agrees. On the contrary, it'd be a really interesting point to discuss, and I'm definetely open to it. After all, that's one of the many good things about DAO

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and that is one way of looking at it.  Mine is different.

Criminal justice, to me, is about punishment.  In other words, for violating the law, you get punished.  Usually, in the instance of most crimes, we're talking about time in jail (which is a punishment, although not as stringent a one as I, personally, would like it to be in some instances) or a monetary fine.  And for most things, this worls just fine.

Some crimes, however, deserve more than just jail (which is a punishment of giving up your freedom) or money (which is, obviously, being punished by giving up money).  IMO, some crimes deserve the ultimate punishment - forfeiting your right to life.

Why?  Not as vengeance.  But because, IMO, some crimes are so heinous, or a pattern of crime is so heinous, that you forfeit your right to continue to live.  To me, that's not vengeance - vengeance would be the victim subjecting them to the same crime, under the same circumtances.

Now, I fully expect that some people will disagree with - well, with quite a bit of what I just said - and that's fair.  I don't want this to be about the death penalty, and whether it's a valid sentence in current society.

My only point is that, IMO, it's not vengeance - vengeance is getting back at someone for what they did.  This, IMO, is not 'getting back', but is a just punishment for certain conduct.

[Persephone]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Not that anyone really cares, as we are all (myself included) totally and justifiably distracted by the awesomeness that are both Persephone and Addai's stories (which are updated much more quickly and frequently than I am humanly capable of), but Chapter 4 of my own humble contribution to Loghain fanfics is up. Finally. After much Mojave Wasteland distraction, curse it all.

www.fanfiction.net/s/6314394/1/The_Hand_Were_Dealt

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. *Blushes*

I reviewed. It's a LOVELY chapter.

[Persephone]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

Of course, that's only my opinion... I might have exposed it somewhat assertively, but that's just for the sake of expressing how it is that I see it. I guess it only gives all the more reasons to consider Loghain the deepest character of DAO, but again, I wouldn't like to go that far and make such a supposition (after all, does it really adds that much to say which character is definitely the deepest?). I guess what I'm trying to say is that love or hate for the character doesn't forfeit one of appreciating just how complex a character Loghain is, and how much he means to the history.

Then again, it's still only my opinion.

This was an AMAZING post. I'll respond it greater detail later but I just had to say this!:happy:

[NuclearSerendipity]

TJPags wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Just one point to make about killing Loghain. 

The choice to do so is not necesarily one of vengeance.  It can easily be viewed as justice, implementing the death penalty on a person whose crimes you believe justify that.

Fair enough.  I guess that what I'm implying, at any rate, is that any such law or justice would be ultimately based on vengeance, even if not a personal one (you can be avenging Justice, for example): otherwise, what is it that one obtains from killing the one who commited these crimes? Wouldn't believing that someone's crimes justifiy his or her punishment imply that he or she has to pay for them? But to whom or what is he or she paying? And to what end? Why would someone see it as justifiable, if not for believing there's something or someone that must be compensated for what someone else has done?

Of course, I know that's a controversial point and I don't intend to say I'm sure I'm right about it. I'm just explaining the way I see it, and why I said what I did, but it's not like I expect everyone agrees. On the contrary, it'd be a really interesting point to discuss, and I'm definetely open to it. After all, that's one of the many good things about DAO

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and that is one way of looking at it.  Mine is different.

Criminal justice, to me, is about punishment.  In other words, for violating the law, you get punished.  Usually, in the instance of most crimes, we're talking about time in jail (which is a punishment, although not as stringent a one as I, personally, would like it to be in some instances) or a monetary fine.  And for most things, this worls just fine.

Some crimes, however, deserve more than just jail (which is a punishment of giving up your freedom) or money (which is, obviously, being punished by giving up money).  IMO, some crimes deserve the ultimate punishment - forfeiting your right to life.

Why?  Not as vengeance.  But because, IMO, some crimes are so heinous, or a pattern of crime is so heinous, that you forfeit your right to continue to live.  To me, that's not vengeance - vengeance would be the victim subjecting them to the same crime, under the same circumtances.

Now, I fully expect that some people will disagree with - well, with quite a bit of what I just said - and that's fair.  I don't want this to be about the death penalty, and whether it's a valid sentence in current society.

My only point is that, IMO, it's not vengeance - vengeance is getting back at someone for what they did.  This, IMO, is not 'getting back', but is a just punishment for certain conduct.

I know your opinion is quite different. That's what makes it interesting to discuss the subject, after all.

I understand what you mean, and I think that we agree to some degree, even if we don't mean by some words the same things. I guess I should make clear one thing: I don't mean that I believe that one's actions should have no consequences, that there should be no response whatsoever to whatever actions one make. But I do believe that those responses should not be based on the idea of "punishment" (which involves to me the idea of vengeance, and I'll explain why further on the post). Rather, they should be based on their outcomes, so to speak. It's perfectly arguable that sometimes it's better to have people jailed, and, if it really comes to this, killed. (In fact, while I didn't kill Loghain, I did tell on Jowan, not because I thought he should be punished, but rather because I thought he was acting suspiciously and would most likely be dangerous, should he escape).But not because those people have to be punished, or to "pay for their crimes", but simply because it is what would be better in the bigger picture. My problem isn't quite with the action itself taken against who commits a 'crime', but rather with its motivation. 

I understand what you mean as to why punishment wouldn't be vengeance, but we have different concepts of what that is. When I speak of vengeance, I don't mean simply personal vengeance, nor reacting to what someone did to you by doing exactly the same thing; I mean acting in order to compensate for what one has done to someone else by making he suffer the equivalent (and not the same) of what he has done. What matters is not that the one who suffers the vengeance goes through exactly the same thing, but rather that he suffers just as much, just what is due for the suffering he inflicted. I don't think it really holds to consider vengeance has meaning necessarily doing the same thing: if someone kills your daughter, but he himself doesn't have one, does that mean that you cannot get your revenge on him? Or does it mean that you'll find some other way to make him suffer just as much as you did or suffer what you think it's due for him to - perhaps, killing another relative, or simply by killing him himself?

Punishing implies, or so it seems to me, making someone pay what is due for what he has done, meaning that one has to suffer the equivalent or accordingly to what he has done. In that sense, punishing would be vengeance. But from whom? It depends: it could be a man; it could be society; it could be even an abstract entity such as Justice. (Not to forget, someone could avenge someone else: a friend killing the man who killed his friend's daughter, some Paladin avenging his Justice for what some devils have done against it, etc.). Either way, punishing seems to necessarily imply that someone has to pay something to someone else to compensate for something he has done to the latter. In that sense, it is precisely "getting back" at someone - if not, I would ask, what is it that makes punishment justifiable? Is it just that somethings ought to be punishable by definition?

I didn't kill Loghain because I didn't see what good would it bring. If there was any reason for me to think he could still do any harm - maybe, for example, he not giving up and having no chance of changing his mind, becoming a real threat to Ferelden - I could possibly have done it differently.

I guess that we don't have to grudge too much about whether or not punishment is vengeance. I could put it simply this way: While I do believe that every action must have its consequence, I don't believe that it's consequences should be based and determined by the idea of a compensation one has to make, no matter the context, to someone or something or for having done something. Rather, they should be determined accordingly to what would be best in the situation: would you kill someone who has committed terrible crimes just to make he pay for it, if you had no reason to believe he would ever do something like that again, and had plenty of reasons to believe that he can do a lot more of good alive than dead? Or, even further: would you kill someone like that who, even though he can do absolutely no harm any further, can't do any good either, just to make he pay for what he's done? Would that be better than letting he live?

And yeah, I don't think anyone intends this to make this a bigger deal than it is. We're just discussing some ideas, and a game as DAO certainly scores if it can make we discuss things like that. Since no one intends to impose on their opinions and, on the contrary, is open to discussion, there's no reason to make a fuzz about it, as much a polemic topic as it is.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Persephone wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

Of course, that's only my opinion... I might have exposed it somewhat assertively, but that's just for the sake of expressing how it is that I see it. I guess it only gives all the more reasons to consider Loghain the deepest character of DAO, but again, I wouldn't like to go that far and make such a supposition (after all, does it really adds that much to say which character is definitely the deepest?). I guess what I'm trying to say is that love or hate for the character doesn't forfeit one of appreciating just how complex a character Loghain is, and how much he means to the history.

Then again, it's still only my opinion.

This was an AMAZING post. I'll respond it greater detail later but I just had to say this!:happy:

Wow, thanks a lot, Persephone! I'm really looking forward to your post... It's been while since I've discussed in forums, and I confess I really missed it.

[CalJones]

Nice chapter. DR. Now you've made me want cookies and I'm on a diet. Gah!

[Addai]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Not that anyone really cares, as we are all (myself included) totally and justifiably distracted by the awesomeness that are both Persephone and Addai's stories (which are updated much more quickly and frequently than I am humanly capable of), but Chapter 4 of my own humble contribution to Loghain fanfics is up. Finally. After much Mojave Wasteland distraction, curse it all.

www.fanfiction.net/s/6314394/1/The_Hand_Were_Dealt

I'll have lots of good reading to do when The Arrangement is done.

And, I've committed the ultimate Alistarian sacrilege, but I just couldn't resist.  I morphed my Queen Cous with the visage of Ellie and went back to marry Alistair off to Anora and spare Loghain.  May I burn forever in the hells of Alistair's ire. 

But, I got some nice screenshots!  And a bonus was that Cous hadn't done RtO, so I got to take Loghain and Wynne there.  Even though he sounds really bitter and I don't think he really would have objected to giving Cailan a pyre, Wynne is very typically full of STFU.  And the writing for Loghain felt more "on" than it did for Alistair.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 novembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Costin_Razvan]

And, I've committed the ultimate Alistarian sacrilege, but I just couldn't resist

Welcome to the Dark Side....we have Nugs with pancakes.

 Note: This interview was requested by Costin_Razvan, as apparently there is a small group of people who are not satisfied by interviews with sullen qunari or crazy old priests.  Baffling.

Me: Loghain, I need you take some time out of your busy schedule of... I guess brooding?  Looking miserable?  Actually, I guess I have no idea what it is you're doing, but take a break, okay?  I need you to answer some questions for the forums.
Loghain: What? What forums? No, don't be ridiculous. How did you get in here, anyway?
Me: Plot holes.  Look, if you don't do this interview, the Orlesians win.
Loghain: ... Just make this quick.

Q & A with Loghain

Q: What do you think of the hate the players have against you?



A. I assure you, I think of nothing else. I cry myself to sleep over their cruelty every night.

Q. Wow.  Really?

A. No. I've been hated by a lot of people in my time, many of whom I actually knew and whose opinions mattered to me.  Why would I care for the hatred of strangers?

Q: What are your thoughts regarding Ostagar?


A. Oh, Maker, this again.  Only the darkspawn came away from that place victorious.  I have nothing further to say on the subject.


Q: What are your thoughts of Alistair, Duncan and Cailan?



A. All I know of Alistair is his name.  I'm not sure what conculsions you expect me to draw from that.  I barely knew Duncan, but he seemed capable, I suppose.  I have no desire to speak further of Cailan.

Q: What is your favorite map?



A. There's a very fine one of Ferelden hanging on the wall in the war room at Denerim. It was drawn just before the Orlesian invasion, and shows every bannorn and arling, every freehold exactly as it was almost a century ago.

Q: Now that you are a Grey Warden, what do you think of the order?



A. Since "the order" presently consists of just two people besides myself, I can't find any fault with it.

Q: Do you like nugs?

A. Those hairless rodents the dwarves eat? I've never seen one that wasn't salt-cured. They're not bad with pancakes, I suppose.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 novembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Not that anyone really cares, as we are all (myself included) totally and justifiably distracted by the awesomeness that are both Persephone and Addai's stories (which are updated much more quickly and frequently than I am humanly capable of), but Chapter 4 of my own humble contribution to Loghain fanfics is up. Finally. After much Mojave Wasteland distraction, curse it all.

www.fanfiction.net/s/6314394/1/The_Hand_Were_Dealt

I'll have lots of good reading to do when The Arrangement is done.

And, I've committed the ultimate Alistarian sacrilege, but I just couldn't resist.  I morphed my Queen Cous with the visage of Ellie and went back to marry Alistair off to Anora and spare Loghain.  May I burn forever in the hells of Alistair's ire. 

But, I got some nice screenshots!

Gatekiss? 

[nos_astra]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...
I didn't kill Loghain because I didn't see what good would it bring. If there was any reason for me to think he could still do any harm - maybe, for example, he not giving up and having no chance of changing his mind, becoming a real threat to Ferelden - I could possibly have done it differently.

From an OOC perspective I would agree. Yes, you are the player character and of course no character you recruit will make the game unbeatable. Logic dictates that no matter who you recruit, you will be the shining hero.

I'm not sure this works like that from an in character perspective. The Landsmeet suffers from crappy writing (probably due to time and money constraints) and Loghain Mac Tir lacks any notable character developement. The jump from "You are an Orlesian traitor and I''m gonna kill you" to "Hush Anora, it's over. ... Make it quick Warden, I can die now, knowing that Ferelden is in your capable hands." (HELLO? To a mage/elf/dwarf? WTF!?) is too much for me and I'm still struggling to make it work for me.

I appreciate the character, I even spare him and let him redeem himself on one of my two canon playthroughs, but that doesn't change my being critical of him and doubting this sudden turn around.

Sometimes I wonder if people mistake a lack of characterization and unclear motivation as depth. I still don't find him a particularily a deep character, not more than other characters in DAO. Like many others he does have potential, but that's it. The rest is make-your-own-favourite-character.

Modifié par klarabella, 13 novembre 2010 - 07:58 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The jump from "You are an Orlesian traitor and I''m gonna kill you" to "Hush Anora, it's over. ... Make it quick Warden, I can die now, knowing that Ferelden is in your capable hands." (HELLO? To a mage/elf/dwarf? WTF!?) is too much for me and I'm still struggling to make it work for me.

Well good for you, I did not have that problem and neither did others.

[Elhanan]

From my perspective, once Loghain is bested in combat on a one-on-one confrontation, he has been defeated by the best (ie; his better, as Cauthrian might say). Not some persuasive politico, or some back room dealing noble like Bhelen, but by someone like Maric. This is his standard of excellence, and one that must be met to gain respect.

[Wulfram]

I think Loghain is glad to be defeated. He hates the tyrant he's become, even if he has convinced himself it is necessary and is forced by his sense of duty to continue as long as he can.



When the player defeats him and forces him from power, it is a relief even if he expects it to result in his death. The fate of Ferelden can no longer rest on his shoulders.

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Well good for you, I did not have that problem and neither did others.

Obviously.

[nos_astra]

Wulfram wrote...
I think Loghain is glad to be defeated. He hates the tyrant he's become, even if he has convinced himself it is necessary and is forced by his sense of duty to continue as long as he can.

When the player defeats him and forces him from power, it is a relief even if he expects it to result in his death. The fate of Ferelden can no longer rest on his shoulders.

Sounds good to me. But still, you have to make assumptions, you'll never know what he was thinking 30 minutes before when he was determined to be rid off you, and why he was doing what he was doing to begin with.