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[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Fereldan does not have a central bureaucracy in way so that Cailan can order Loghain what to do. Loghain was there due to his own choice so that he could help his friend's child and to defend Fereldan, not because of his obligations in law to Cailan.

Where does that come from? Is this another one of your wild assumptions in favour of Loghain?

[Costin_Razvan]

Where does that come from? Is this another one of your wild assumptions in favour of Loghain?

I wish people would actually bother reading up on the wiki or codex about Fereldan politics before dismissing your points as "wild assumptions". 

To answer your question however, the wiki mentions that the position of King in Fereldan is granted through an election via the Landsmeet and that the King can loose his place if he does not have enough support. He does not have authority over nobles, his position is one as a moderator rather then a King as we know it.

Basically the King of Fereldan has a position of respect, not of power. ( To quote Harrowmont ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 novembre 2010 - 12:11 .

[Sarah1281]

He disobeyed orders at Ostagar by not engaging, and by not securing the Tower, and for not being more concerned about an entire army of scouts missing in the wilds.

He tried to secure the Tower. There were more darkspawn there then anyone expected. #1 Loghain-hater Alistair confirms that the darkspawn were not supposed to be in the Tower. How does Loghain sending sufficient force to wipe out the darkspawn people expect but that force not being enough to deal with darkspawn that are not supposed to be there count as disobeying orders? And unless someone ordered him to personally investigate a missing scouting party (which is really NOT the job of a general) then I don't see how you can hold that against him as not following orders either. You may feel that he should have but not doing something that would have been smart does not count as not following orders unless he was actually ordered to do it. And not doing something that in hindsight might have been a good plan is hardly illegal.

[CalJones]

LMAO. I have started modding my game, finally (now that there will be no more content) and stumbled across Evil Loghain, aka Marilyn Mac Tir. Oh dear.

[Wulfram]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Where does that come from? Is this another one of your wild assumptions in favour of Loghain?

I wish people would actually bother reading up on the wiki or codex about Fereldan politics before dismissing your points as "wild assumptions". 

To answer your question however, the wiki mentions that the position of King in Fereldan is granted through an election via the Landsmeet and that the King can loose his place if he does not have enough support. He does not have authority over nobles, his position is one as a moderator rather then a King as we know it.

Basically the King of Fereldan has a position of respect, not of power. ( To quote Harrowmont ).

Just because Ferelden has an elective monarchy, like many medieval states, doesn't mean the King doesn't have the right to expect the military service from his vassals which is the basis of Kingship

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...
He tried to secure the Tower. There were more darkspawn there then anyone expected.

He tried and failed and for some odd reason word of this failure didn't reach him ... or anyone ... in time.

It is a possibility to assume Loghain Mac Tir just doesn't live up to his legend and fails badly.

[TJPags]

Oh, I really didn't want to debate Loghain again, I was really just trying to keep the most recent discussion on topic.  But if I must, I must.

1.  He doesn't have to obey the king.  Well, then who has to obey anyone in Ferelden?  Someone tell me, then, why the Banns have to obey HIM?  Where does he get off using force against people who disobey HIM, when he isn't even the king, and they don't have to obey the king?  Please - I don't care how the king is selected, once he is selected, until he dies or os VOTED out of power, he IS the king, and therefore, should be obeyed.

2.  He tried to secure the tower.  Yet he failed.  He's the general, right?  He's in charge of the details, yes?  HIS MEN were the ones securing the Tower, yes?  HIS MEN found the tunnels, yes?  And yet he did not properly investigate them.  No, I'm not making this some Loghain-in-league-with-the-darkspawn thing.  I'm arguing that the general commanding those forces failed to take proper steps to secure his own camp!!!!

3.  The missing Highever forces which were out scouting.  Again, Loghain is the general, right?  The brilliant strategic mind, right?  Well, as a general, if I have such a large force of men out scouting, and they GO MISSING, especially given how it's always pointed out that the darkspawn forces were increasing each time, and that there were more at Ostagar than anyone expected - well, isn't that something which should be considered???  Again, the choice of where to fight was Caillan's, but the PLAN was Loghain's . . . and yet he didn't concern himself with, not a single scout getting lost, but the entire force of men from Highever, perhaps the second or third most powerful, and likely most numerous, force in Ferelden, GOING MISSING WHILE SCOUTING!!!  Just ignore that because nobody specifically told him to investigate it??  Please.

Again, I didn't want to debate this all over again.  I see mistakes, crimes, etc.  I didn't even bring up poisioning Eamon, which is surely at least an assault if not attempted murder, I didn't bring up his, at the very least, aquiescence in hiring assassins.  I listed some of the acts which I feel fall into criminal negligence or criminal acts, use them to show a pattern of behavior, to explain how my reasoning on crime - which is what I have been discussing with NuclearSerendipity - fits into my actions at the Landsmeet, so that the thread stays on topic.
But by all means, if people DO want to debate this, you know I'm always willing to argue for chopping the incompetant power mad lunatic's head off. 

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
He tried to secure the Tower. There were more darkspawn there then anyone expected.

He tried and failed and for some odd reason word of this failure didn't reach him ... or anyone ... in time.

It is a possibility to assume Loghain Mac Tir just doesn't live up to his legend and fails badly.

Loghain is a general, not a miracle worker. The greatest generals have suffered defeats. I.E. Caesar at Gergovia. Would you say he failed badly too?

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...I listed some of the acts which I feel fall into criminal negligence or criminal acts, use them to show a pattern of behavior, to explain how my reasoning on crime - which is what I have been discussing with NuclearSerendipity - fits into my actions at the Landsmeet, so that the thread stays on topic.
But by all means, if people DO want to debate this, you know I'm always willing to argue for chopping the incompetant power mad lunatic's head off. 

You can say what you like about him, I no longer care to repeat myself again and again. But even you must admit that he was not power mad nor a lunatic. Of course I know you're all for butchering him in front of his daughter.... Pardon the sarcasm.... But geez.....

[Sarah1281]

@TJPags: If you think it was a mistake, incompetence, laziness, whatever that doesn't mean that it is disobeying orders which is what you claimed it was.

[Wulfram]

Was the Highever force missing? From what Cailan says to the HN about Fergus, I thought they weren't expected to return until after the battle

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Was the Highever force missing? From what Cailan says to the HN about Fergus, I thought they weren't expected to return until after the battle

Not to mention that there are Highever Soldiers and Knights at the camp. Many of them. Cailan himself says Fergus probably won't return before the battle is over. So no, neither Fergus nor his army were missing.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...I listed some of the acts which I feel fall into criminal negligence or criminal acts, use them to show a pattern of behavior, to explain how my reasoning on crime - which is what I have been discussing with NuclearSerendipity - fits into my actions at the Landsmeet, so that the thread stays on topic.
But by all means, if people DO want to debate this, you know I'm always willing to argue for chopping the incompetant power mad lunatic's head off. 

You can say what you like about him, I no longer care to repeat myself again and again. But even you must admit that he was not power mad nor a lunatic. Of course I know you're all for butchering him in front of his daughter.... Pardon the sarcasm.... But geez.....

Oh, I need to admit nothing of the sort. 

I DO think he was seeking power - in fact, I think it's clear that he was.  You and others attribute this to noble motives, which is your choice, but I think there's no doubt at ALL that he was, in fact, seizing power.

I also think he was indeed a bit of a lunatic.  Clinically?  No, perhaps not.  But in common terms?  To me, yes.  His obsession with Orlais seems like lunacy to me.

Thje "butchering him in front of his daughter" comment I'll pass on, for the sake of amicable discussion. 

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

@TJPags: If you think it was a mistake, incompetence, laziness, whatever that doesn't mean that it is disobeying orders which is what you claimed it was.

His orders were to engage with a flanking assault.  He did not.

His orders were to secure the tower.  He did not.

His orders were to act as general, the role of which includes ensuring inteeligence on the enemy, through scouting.  He did not.

Shall we call the last two negligence bordering on criminal negligence instead of disobeying orders?  If you prefer, fine.  Same result, to me.

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...I listed some of the acts which I feel fall into criminal negligence or criminal acts, use them to show a pattern of behavior, to explain how my reasoning on crime - which is what I have been discussing with NuclearSerendipity - fits into my actions at the Landsmeet, so that the thread stays on topic.
But by all means, if people DO want to debate this, you know I'm always willing to argue for chopping the incompetant power mad lunatic's head off. 

You can say what you like about him, I no longer care to repeat myself again and again. But even you must admit that he was not power mad nor a lunatic. Of course I know you're all for butchering him in front of his daughter.... Pardon the sarcasm.... But geez.....

Oh, I need to admit nothing of the sort. 

I DO think he was seeking power - in fact, I think it's clear that he was.  You and others attribute this to noble motives, which is your choice, but I think there's no doubt at ALL that he was, in fact, seizing power.

I also think he was indeed a bit of a lunatic.  Clinically?  No, perhaps not.  But in common terms?  To me, yes.  His obsession with Orlais seems like lunacy to me.

Thje "butchering him in front of his daughter" comment I'll pass on, for the sake of amicable discussion. 

I do not. He clearly does not enjoy being regent. And he acts like a man relieved once he is no longer in power. Seizing power, yes. Seeking power for the sake of ambition and greed (Ala Howe) ? No.

His "obsession" was proven right in more ways than one. He has every right to despise the Orlesians and to be wary of them. Especially given legions amassing at the borders, the plotting of Cailan and Celene...... Lunacy? No. Understandable? Why should he trust them after everything he has suffered at their hands? Would you not "obsess" over those who enslaved your country, gang raped and murdered your mother etc. etc.? Really?

Amicable discussion? I admit that my sarcasm was rather snarky. But no less than yours.

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

@TJPags: If you think it was a mistake, incompetence, laziness, whatever that doesn't mean that it is disobeying orders which is what you claimed it was.

His orders were to engage with a flanking assault.  He did not.

His orders were to secure the tower.  He did not.

His orders were to act as general, the role of which includes ensuring inteeligence on the enemy, through scouting.  He did not.

Shall we call the last two negligence bordering on criminal negligence instead of disobeying orders?  If you prefer, fine.  Same result, to me.

1) It has already been established that there are perfectly good tactical reasons for his retreat.

2) He did secure the Tower. Surprise attacks are not proof of failure. Or should he have wasted more men on the Tower & thus weakening the forces on the battlefield?

3) Of course he did. We are not told anything about the results of the scouting. Everyone was surprised by the gigantic forces erupting from the Deep Roads. Even the Warden when he/she is in The Deep Roads.

[Wulfram]

Loghain's suspicions about Orlais start looking crazy when large chunks of the Kingdom are swallowed by the blight and he's still going on about them.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

@TJPags: If you think it was a mistake, incompetence, laziness, whatever that doesn't mean that it is disobeying orders which is what you claimed it was.

His orders were to engage with a flanking assault.  He did not.

His orders were to secure the tower.  He did not.

His orders were to act as general, the role of which includes ensuring inteeligence on the enemy, through scouting.  He did not.

Shall we call the last two negligence bordering on criminal negligence instead of disobeying orders?  If you prefer, fine.  Same result, to me.

We've already discussed the first point to death so I'm kind of ignoring that as I don't want to get into it again.

His orders were to secure the Tower. We have no reason to believe that he did not send sufficient force to secure the Tower against the darkspawn that everyone including Cailan thought would be present. That he was not psychic and did not realize that there were far more darkspawn present than anyone expected and thus his men failed to secure the Tower is not either disobedience or criminal negligence. If you're told that you have to defend a point from 100 men, have ample force to do that, and then 500 show up then if you fail to defend that point you didn't disobey anyone nor are you incompetent. That seems to be what happened there.

His role is to be a general, not to micromanage every last scouting party. If it were such a big deal that some scouting parties didn't report back when they should have then there were people under Loghain who really should have dealt with it while Loghain was busy NOT being disobedient or grossly negligent and doing more general-related tasks like working out the battle plan and trying to stop Cailan from fighting on the front lines.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...I listed some of the acts which I feel fall into criminal negligence or criminal acts, use them to show a pattern of behavior, to explain how my reasoning on crime - which is what I have been discussing with NuclearSerendipity - fits into my actions at the Landsmeet, so that the thread stays on topic.
But by all means, if people DO want to debate this, you know I'm always willing to argue for chopping the incompetant power mad lunatic's head off. 

You can say what you like about him, I no longer care to repeat myself again and again. But even you must admit that he was not power mad nor a lunatic. Of course I know you're all for butchering him in front of his daughter.... Pardon the sarcasm.... But geez.....

Oh, I need to admit nothing of the sort. 

I DO think he was seeking power - in fact, I think it's clear that he was.  You and others attribute this to noble motives, which is your choice, but I think there's no doubt at ALL that he was, in fact, seizing power.

I also think he was indeed a bit of a lunatic.  Clinically?  No, perhaps not.  But in common terms?  To me, yes.  His obsession with Orlais seems like lunacy to me.

Thje "butchering him in front of his daughter" comment I'll pass on, for the sake of amicable discussion. 

I do not. He clearly does not enjoy being regent. And he acts like a man relieved once he is no longer in power. Seizing power, yes. Seeking power for the sake of ambition and greed (Ala Howe) ? No.

His "obsession" was proven right in more ways than one. He has every right to despise the Orlesians and to be wary of them. Especially given legions amassing at the borders, the plotting of Cailan and Celene...... Lunacy? No. Understandable? Why should he trust them after everything he has suffered at their hands? Would you not "obsess" over those who enslaved your country, gang raped and murdered your mother etc. etc.? Really?

Amicable discussion? I admit that my sarcasm was rather snarky. But no less than yours.

1.  We agree he seized power.  We disagree about his motives for doing so, and his . . enjoyment? . . of having done so.  That's fair enough - my point here is that he did it.

2.  His "obsession" was based on past acts - the invasion, the treatment of Ferelden by the Orlesian king during it, what happened to his mother.  He has a right to that hatred - I don't dispute that.  It's not, however, healthy, especially not for someone in a position of such power as he finds himself.  He was not, IMO, "proven right" in game about any of it occurring again.  The troops at the border were there at the okay of Caillan, they never invaded, and we know nothing about the details of any "plot" between Caillan and Celene other than speculation about what "closer relations" means.  Even if the speculation is right, and it is a marriage between Celene and Caillan, well, as you said - it was their plot, so to place it all on Celene is disingenuous.

3.  Fair enough, I was a bit sarcastic in my prior comment.  Let's let it go at that, shall we? 

[TJPags]

Oh maker, what did I start here? 

Okay, last time:

1. Yes, it's been discussed to death.  Sound tactical decision or not sound tactical decision, his orders were to engage.  He has to answer for not doing so, and if he can successfully argue that sound tactical sense said he should not, then he can be absolved.  Someone please tell me where, up to the end of the Landsmeet, he does this?

2.  The tunnels were discovered before the battle.  He sent some men to investigate.  What happened to them? What did they find?  Well, apparently, darkspawn, it seems.  What, exactly, did he do besides send a few guys to scout these newly discovered tunnels, which are under his camp, lead to maker-knows-where, and may allow the enemy access to the camp?  Not much.  And please stop talking about more darkspawn then expected in this context, unless you're honestly going to argue that darkspawn in tunnels under the Tower were actually expected.  The larger than expected darkspawn numbers have nothing to do with tunnels suddenly appearing under part of your camp.

3.  He is the general, he is in command of tactics, his scouts are either missing or failing to find these larger than expected numbers of darkspawn.  As with #2, IMO, he with ultimate power takes ultimate responsibility.  Sucks to be in charge.

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Loghain's suspicions about Orlais start looking crazy when large chunks of the Kingdom are swallowed by the blight and he's still going on about them.

He doesn't know it's a Blight. He doesn't see Archie every night. Most people think it is on a Blight until this scenario has happened. And Blight or no, still no reason to trust Orlais.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
2.  The tunnels were discovered before the battle.  He sent some men to investigate.  What happened to them? What did they find?  Well, apparently, darkspawn, it seems.  What, exactly, did he do besides send a few guys to scout these newly discovered tunnels, which are under his camp, lead to maker-knows-where, and may allow the enemy access to the camp?  .

He sent men there to secure it, including a mage (if you are not a mage). They were just killed when we got there.

What do you want him to do, put half his force there? He didn't have enough men to secure anything, it's clear he was not enthusiastic about the whole battle at all and he would have probably preferred waiting for redcliffe's forces, aid from the Dwarves, and all the mages fighting with him.

The only sheer incompetence that Loghain is guilty of vis a vis Ostagar is not eliminating Cailan way before the battle.

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...I listed some of the acts which I feel fall into criminal negligence or criminal acts, use them to show a pattern of behavior, to explain how my reasoning on crime - which is what I have been discussing with NuclearSerendipity - fits into my actions at the Landsmeet, so that the thread stays on topic.
But by all means, if people DO want to debate this, you know I'm always willing to argue for chopping the incompetant power mad lunatic's head off. 

You can say what you like about him, I no longer care to repeat myself again and again. But even you must admit that he was not power mad nor a lunatic. Of course I know you're all for butchering him in front of his daughter.... Pardon the sarcasm.... But geez.....

Oh, I need to admit nothing of the sort. 

I DO think he was seeking power - in fact, I think it's clear that he was.  You and others attribute this to noble motives, which is your choice, but I think there's no doubt at ALL that he was, in fact, seizing power.

I also think he was indeed a bit of a lunatic.  Clinically?  No, perhaps not.  But in common terms?  To me, yes.  His obsession with Orlais seems like lunacy to me.

Thje "butchering him in front of his daughter" comment I'll pass on, for the sake of amicable discussion. 

I do not. He clearly does not enjoy being regent. And he acts like a man relieved once he is no longer in power. Seizing power, yes. Seeking power for the sake of ambition and greed (Ala Howe) ? No.

His "obsession" was proven right in more ways than one. He has every right to despise the Orlesians and to be wary of them. Especially given legions amassing at the borders, the plotting of Cailan and Celene...... Lunacy? No. Understandable? Why should he trust them after everything he has suffered at their hands? Would you not "obsess" over those who enslaved your country, gang raped and murdered your mother etc. etc.? Really?

Amicable discussion? I admit that my sarcasm was rather snarky. But no less than yours.

1.  We agree he seized power.  We disagree about his motives for doing so, and his . . enjoyment? . . of having done so.  That's fair enough - my point here is that he did it.

2.  His "obsession" was based on past acts - the invasion, the treatment of Ferelden by the Orlesian king during it, what happened to his mother.  He has a right to that hatred - I don't dispute that.  It's not, however, healthy, especially not for someone in a position of such power as he finds himself.  He was not, IMO, "proven right" in game about any of it occurring again.  The troops at the border were there at the okay of Caillan, they never invaded, and we know nothing about the details of any "plot" between Caillan and Celene other than speculation about what "closer relations" means.  Even if the speculation is right, and it is a marriage between Celene and Caillan, well, as you said - it was their plot, so to place it all on Celene is disingenuous.

3.  Fair enough, I was a bit sarcastic in my prior comment.  Let's let it go at that, shall we? 

1) Motives matter when you call someone power mad.

2) Past or no, anyone in his right mind would not trust those occupants who inflicted such horrors upon the land he loved, the king he served and his own family just because they COULD. What he witnessed regarding his mother would be enough to turn many into broken wrecks. He came out of it scarred. But not defeated. It is something you cannot forgive or forget because 30 years have passed. Cailan's idiocy is no excuse. A king selling out his country is a king I despise. Their plot? Cailan is almost too stupid to breathe, of course I place it all on Celene who is a political mastermind.

3) Sure.

Modifié par Persephone, 14 novembre 2010 - 04:48 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
2.  The tunnels were discovered before the battle.  He sent some men to investigate.  What happened to them? What did they find?  Well, apparently, darkspawn, it seems.  What, exactly, did he do besides send a few guys to scout these newly discovered tunnels, which are under his camp, lead to maker-knows-where, and may allow the enemy access to the camp?  .

He sent men there to secure it, including a mage (if you are not a mage). They were just killed when we got there.

What do you want him to do, put half his force there? He didn't have enough men to secure anything, it's clear he was not enthusiastic about the whole battle at all and he would have probably preferred waiting for redcliffe's forces, aid from the Dwarves, and all the mages fighting with him.

The only sheer incompetence that Loghain is guilty of vis a vis Ostagar is not eliminating Cailan way before the battle.

Eliminate him how though? Without becoming guilty of regicide, that is?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Eliminate him how though? Without becoming guilty of regicide, that is?

Use the same poison he used on Eamon and incapacitate him for a while.
Outright kill him and say it was the taint that got him (since he fights on the frontlines, it's not farfetched). Or the Wardens and Orlesians who did it.

He could have shifted the blame away from himself easily. But he didn't do that, sadly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 novembre 2010 - 04:52 .