12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Of course he is outnumbered, given which thread this is.

Which leaders have been executed for less? (Never mind the fact that I agree that Loghain is not a good politician)

King Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, the Romanovs, ect

And as for Clinton, the comparison makes no sense for me. 1990ties vs. Medieval times. Caesar "caused" a civil war as well. And the Roman empire was gigantic, not a small kingdom. Would you agree he deserved execution as well or do you think what happened on the Ides Of March was in any way justified?

And Ceasar's civil war payed dividends. Had he ended up tearing apart Rome, things would have been different. In the end, however, the cost of the civil war bought better long term benefits for Rome.

Loghain's civil war weakened the country during a time when it was already weakened from the Blight. It cost more and benefitted no one in the long run.

And, as KoP pointed out, it comes down to the winners. The Wardens. Which for ferelden's sake, is a good thing, because if Loghain had won, well....he could finish squashing the civil war and rebellion, and then with the country united, he could then...

Oh, wait. That's right, had Loghain won, there would be no country left to unite.

But it's more than just the victors determining right and wrong. We know that Loghain is, as far as the Blight is concerned, 100% wrong.

Both examples you cited were grave miscarriages of justice. And aknowledged as such. Sickening scenarios both.

It was not Loghain's civil war, he never wanted it.

He knew nothing of it truly being a Blight. No one did except the Grey Wardens who shrouded themselves in self absorbed secrecy.

We know he was wrong re: the Blight. How should he have known otherwise until it was too late? Most believed it was not a Blight. And once Loghain knows it IS a Blight and is pledged to you as a GW, he is willing to sacrifice his life and soul to atone.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

 

That for me is his biggest mistake, I've always said so. But it does not warrant death for me. Since I am not a consequentialist (as in consequences, while important, are not the most important thing to me).

His lack of finesse caused alot of unecessary death, destruction, and strife in his own country. Because he is in a position of power and influence, this for me warrants death. Well, mainly because the only other option is to let him hang out with me and play Warden, which in some playthroughs, simply isn't an option at all.

Why did we execute high ranking ****s in Nuremburg for war crimes and crimes against humanity, when several of them never even picked up a weapon in their lives, let alone were present during the massacres, tortures, rapes, and enslavements of civilian populations?

Because they were in power, and through that power, issued orders, concocted or looked the other way.

Ultimately, my opinion is that people with power should be held fully accountable for everything done on their watch, whether they knew about it, participated in it, or did nothing about it. If something epically disasterous happens, they should be paying the price.

[Persephone]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

 

That for me is his biggest mistake, I've always said so. But it does not warrant death for me. Since I am not a consequentialist (as in consequences, while important, are not the most important thing to me).

His lack of finesse caused alot of unecessary death, destruction, and strife in his own country. Because he is in a position of power and influence, this for me warrants death. Well, mainly because the only other option is to let him hang out with me and play Warden, which in some playthroughs, simply isn't an option at all.

Why did we execute high ranking ****s in Nuremburg for war crimes and crimes against humanity, when several of them never even picked up a weapon in their lives, let alone were present during the massacres, tortures, rapes, and enslavements of civilian populations?

Because they were in power, and through that power, issued orders, concocted or looked the other way.

Ultimately, my opinion is that people with power should be held fully accountable for everything done on their watch, whether they knew about it, participated in it, or did nothing about it. If something epically disasterous happens, they should be paying the price.

Skadi, there we differ. I do not judge Loghain or Caesar or Elizabeth I. based on 20th century morals and standards. You do. Fine.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

>Sigh

For the sake of balance in the current debates, since he is outnumbered, I shall side with Tpegs here. And I just downloaded the Loghain sexytime/kissyface mod, too.

*ahem*  Where would this be?  LOL

I did download "Romanceable Loghain" from DA Nexus, but didn't have any dialogue triggers.  Unless it is approval based, because I didn't have enough maps to impress him!

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

But Loghain in my mind, is guilty of incompetance and shortsightedness, and while for most people, such "crimes" would merit a sound beating or pimp slap, Loghain is not most people. He is a leader of armies, a national hero, a man with power to influence and have massive consequences on the lives of millions of Fereldens.

I don't understand the mentality for killing someone for failing, despite their best efforts. It's like calling for a doctor to be fired if a patient dies in surgery. You can do absolutely everything within your power and still fail, and I don't think that always requires a punishment.

Modifié par phaonica, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Persephone wrote...


Both examples you cited were grave miscarriages of justice. And aknowledged as such. Sickening scenarios both.

It was not Loghain's civil war, he never wanted it.

He knew nothing of it truly being a Blight. No one did except the Grey Wardens who shrouded themselves in self absorbed secrecy.

We know he was wrong re: the Blight. How should he have known otherwise until it was too late? Most believed it was not a Blight. And once Loghain knows it IS a Blight and is pledged to you as a GW, he is willing to sacrifice his life and soul to atone.

Oh, I know he did not want it. Yet it happened, and didn't need to.

I know that Loggy also makes a good Warden, willing to take the last blow to redeem himself and make up for his mistakes. I'm not arguing Loggy is a complete **** like Howe or the Baroness or Eamon.

I'm debating on what I feel are justifiable grounds for executing him at landsmeet. Beyond that, as we all know, Loghain is pretty awesome as a character and companion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Why did we execute high ranking ****s in Nuremburg for war crimes and crimes against humanity, when several of them never even picked up a weapon in their lives, let alone were present during the massacres, tortures, rapes, and enslavements of civilian populations?

This is not a good analogy. They were part of an ideological party and they knew its content and its implications. They participated in the regime willingly, knowing full well the ideology behind it and what kind of leader they had. 

Loghain's bad dealing with the bannorn because of lack of finesse and political acumen is a mistake, a big one, but it was not an act motivated by ideology. He did not *want* a civil war. Thsoe trialed on the otherhand were the higher echelons of the N@zi party and shared its ideology.

So it's not about power, it's rather about what kind of regime and party they were participating in.
And I will add that this was purely symbolic anyhow. The Americans surely did not go out of their way to punish Siro Hishi, head of unit 731 for instance, because his "research" (that horrificly caused thousands of Chinese civilian and American POWs deaths) was actually useful.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:16 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...


*ahem*  Where would this be?  LOL

I did download "Romanceable Loghain" from DA Nexus, but didn't have any dialogue triggers.  Unless it is approval based, because I didn't have enough maps to impress him!

I'm not sure, haven't got that far, but I think it is approval triggered. Tghough since there's no "courtship" just at a certain approval, say "Get in my tent, peasant" and you get nookie. Which is fine foir playing a blood mage, since I don't have to justify my reasons for romance. Just pretend my blood mage is using mind control on him to make him her love slave.

@Persephone: If I am going to judge by medieval/Thedas standards, than Loghain would definitely get the ax, because he poisoned the Arl using a Maleficar, which is against the divine law of the Chantry and an offense against the Maker. I would also execute him for abadoning his king, even if his king is a drooling moron. That's high treason right there. Executable offense. I dunno what the punishment for supporting Uldred's circle break from the Chantry would be, but I'd imagine in a religous country, pissing off the Chantry and committing offenses against the divine law is also bad news.

So no, I shall look at his crimes in terms of 20th century standards, because medieval standards all fall flat for me.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

>Sigh

For the sake of balance in the current debates, since he is outnumbered, I shall side with Tpegs here. And I just downloaded the Loghain sexytime/kissyface mod, too.

*ahem*  Where would this be?  LOL

I did download "Romanceable Loghain" from DA Nexus, but didn't have any dialogue triggers.  Unless it is approval based, because I didn't have enough maps to impress him!

Be careful with Romanceable Loghain though. In my game, it caused several problems. People seeing my gal as a man as well as a romance loop with Zevran.

[Persephone]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


*ahem*  Where would this be?  LOL

I did download "Romanceable Loghain" from DA Nexus, but didn't have any dialogue triggers.  Unless it is approval based, because I didn't have enough maps to impress him!

I'm not sure, haven't got that far, but I think it is approval triggered. Tghough since there's no "courtship" just at a certain approval, say "Get in my tent, peasant" and you get nookie. Which is fine foir playing a blood mage, since I don't have to justify my reasons for romance. Just pretend my blood mage is using mind control on him to make him her love slave.

@Persephone: If I am going to judge by medieval/Thedas standards, than Loghain would definitely get the ax, because he poisoned the Arl using a Maleficar, which is against the divine law of the Chantry and an offense against the Maker. I would also execute him for abadoning his king, even if his king is a drooling moron. That's high treason right there. Executable offense. I dunno what the punishment for supporting Uldred's circle break from the Chantry would be, but I'd imagine in a religous country, pissing off the Chantry and committing offenses against the divine law is also bad news.

So no, I shall look at his crimes in terms of 20th century standards, because medieval standards all fall flat for me.

The Revered Mother does not call for his execution, nor does she oppose you if you do not execute him. Telling, no?

Tactical retreat =/= Treason

:happy:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
@Persephone: If I am going to judge by medieval/Thedas standards, than Loghain would definitely get the ax,

Unless conscripted, which is perfectly legal and legitimate in Thedas.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

 The Americans surely did not go out of their way to punish Siro Hishi, head of unit 731 for instance, because his "research" (that horrificly caused thousands of Chinese civilian and American POWs deaths) was actually useful.

The same happened with the **** doctors and scientists as well, many of whom came over and ended up becoming founding members of our space program. But that's cold hard pragmatism and udnerlying reality there, I;'m speaking more in terms of ideas and standards of international law.

Whether Loghain wanted power or not isn't the issue. he took it. And failed, and his failure was damned near catastrophic. No one forced him to take power, he took it. His motives don't matter, I don't care if he was doing it because the Maker or the ghost of Rowan told him to. He made a choice, and he chose badly.

Would I want a doctor fired because a patient died under his care despite the doctor doing what he thought was best? Yes, if the doctor was guilty of pure incompetance and gross misjudgement.

Which is how I see Loghain's mistakes.

Anyway, I'm off to bed, cough sysrup turning me into zombie mode. Hopefully, will be able to pick up tommorow.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

>Sigh

For the sake of balance in the current debates, since he is outnumbered, I shall side with Tpegs here. And I just downloaded the Loghain sexytime/kissyface mod, too.

*ahem*  Where would this be?  LOL

I did download "Romanceable Loghain" from DA Nexus, but didn't have any dialogue triggers.  Unless it is approval based, because I didn't have enough maps to impress him!

Be careful with Romanceable Loghain though. In my game, it caused several problems. People seeing my gal as a man as well as a romance loop with Zevran.

As a man?    It does seem a little thrown-together.  No offense to the mod creator.  I have no idea how to get Loghain's approval that high anyway.  Obviously I wasn't diligent in collecting maps.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Would I want a doctor fired because a patient died under his care despite the doctor doing what he thought was best? Yes, if the doctor was guilty of pure incompetance and gross misjudgement.

Would you kill the doctor?
Firing the doctor is equivalent to removing Loghain's titles and possessions and all political power because he demonstrated that he is incapable of doing it. That in and of itself is sufficient to deal with incompetence and make sure he is not given the chance to repeat that mistake.

But what you want is not to rectify incompetence, but punish it.
Which is fair enough, you do what you believe you have to do.

But for me, punishment is instrumental and I don't see it as intrinsic. Removing his title and power, and subjugating him to a 50% chance of dying and a few years of living before dying in the deep roads, is sufficient punishment for me (in fact, it's almost a bit excessive, but it's instrumentally useful).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Would I want a doctor fired because a patient died under his care despite the doctor doing what he thought was best? Yes, if the doctor was guilty of pure incompetance and gross misjudgement. 

Well, I do advocate taking Loghain off the throne because what he was doing wasn't working. But I still don't see it as enough to execute him.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But what you want is not to recitify incompetence, but punish it.
Which is fair enough, you do what you believe you have to do.

Exactly. It's like, Jowan gets more than enough people into big trouble, but I don't want to have him executed (or made Tranquil) because he's incompetent. I'd want him to be executed (or Tranquiled) because he's a danger.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...
It does seem a little thrown-together.  No offense to the mod creator.  I have no idea how to get Loghain's approval that high anyway.  Obviously I wasn't diligent in collecting maps.

Does the mod also dampen the approval process for him? I mean, by making it less easy to get his approval up? My Mage only gave him 2 maps plus a couple of other mid-range gifts and she wound up with an approval rate of around +70 --not high enough for Love, certainly, but high enough to trigger a romance at least if one was available (sigh. . .). The initial conversation after he Joins is the key, I think. According to the wiki, you can get up to +40 for that one in the original (unmodded) version. I only got +23, but it was a nice kick start. But I've heard that some people dampen the approval boosts a bit when making mods just to make people have to work harder for really high approval ratings.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Addai]

Well that's rotten. What, in all five minutes he's on screen you might get his approval too high?

P.S. I uploaded a couple little videos, gate kiss and a cute little bug I had where Loghain was stuck in dueling stance.  He was stuck like that for a long time, poor guy.  I think we went through all of RtO with him in fighting readiness.  Though it's rather IC!

Modifié par Addai67, 15 novembre 2010 - 06:20 .

[Costin_Razvan]

So, basically, you're saying that we have a country, with a king that nobody has to obey? At all? Unless they feel like it? So, umm, they don't need to pay taxes if they don't want to? They don't have to send troops if they don't want to? They can each make their own little laws if they like?

What you describe is not a country- it's anarchy. It's warlords ruling their own little portion of land however they choose. If that's your view of Ferelden, let me say 2 things - first, all those theories you have about conquering the world? Go for it. Fits right in with a Ferelden point of view. Makes me wonder where Maric got off trying to overthrow the Orlesian ruler, and what he thought he was saving, but whatever. Second, they'd be better off under Orlesian rule. At least that comes with order, and an established rule.

Fereldan was a country of Warlords before Calenhad united them, but he did not force the nobles to obey him. We are talking of nobles here btw, not the entire country ( where you also need to account for commoners ).

The way I figure it ( and the codex supports this theory, if you actually bother to read all those pages about Fereldan politics you would know this ). is that in Fereldan the nobles respect the Kings ruling because of convenience, not because they have to do due to laws. It's a **** system where the power of the King is limited. ( Which is why I strongly advocate for butchering the Bannorn and changing the system ).

Maric faced a problem in the Rebelion. It's clear that almost none of the nobles felt they had to respect his rule, and they only joined up because of how much a sadistic dictator Meghren was.

Conquering the world. I still find it laughable how fighting Orlais in a war = to conquering the world, but go ahead and believe that every Chantry nation would rise to fight for Orlais.

EDIT.

 The teyrns and arls all have to swear fealty to the king, the banns to them

Not exactly. I see nothing to indicate that the Teryns and Arls swear fealty to King. I see a few Banns ( and one arl ) swear fealty to the Teryns, and some Banns swear fealty one Arl ( though that situation in Awakening goes against the Codex Entry in Origins ).

The Bannorn however appears to be independent from any noble.

 While the whole formal vote for a king thing is a bit unusual, I doubt it goes so far as to eliminate common things such as oaths of fealty, etc.  In fact, I think I remember a scene in TST where nobles did, in fact, swear allegiance to Maric.

I will have to check this myself, but bear one thing in mind.: Even if that is true then the fact that the King has to be elected and can be removed from his position if enough rally against him, is enough so that the King's power is quite limited.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 novembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

Well that's rotten. What, in all five minutes he's on screen you might get his approval too high?

P.S. I uploaded a couple little videos, gate kiss and a cute little bug I had where Loghain was stuck in dueling stance.  He was stuck like that for a long time, poor guy.  I think we went through all of RtO with him in fighting readiness.  Though it's rather IC!

Well, that's why I tried to keep him on screen for longer than 5 minutes . Really, though, the only extra approval I got from traveling with him so much was +4 from RtO. The major benefit was getting to fight with him for longer than 5 minutes, which was loads of fun and also gave me the heart I needed for my fic. Of course, now that's backfiring on me --I can't seem to get him through the Joining because my brain keeps writing bits that happen after he's Joined. Oh well, it will make the later chapters get written that much faster, I guess. . .

And P.S. the bug video made me . Ellie standing there staring at him as he pops into fight mode, then stands up and scratches his nose with his sword hand, then pops back, then stands up and rubs his eyes, then pops back. . .She must be thinking, ". . .freak. . ."

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 15 novembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[Addai]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...
Ellie standing there staring at him as he pops into fight mode, then stands up and scratches his nose with his sword hand, then pops back, then stands up and rubs his eyes, then pops back. . .She must be thinking, ". . .freak. . ."

What I think is funny is how bored she looks.  But, she is married to the guy in alternate reality, so she's used to it.  He probably air-duels like that all the time.  LOL

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

>Sigh

For the sake of balance in the current debates, since he is outnumbered, I shall side with Tpegs here. And I just downloaded the Loghain sexytime/kissyface mod, too.

*ahem*  Where would this be?  LOL

I did download "Romanceable Loghain" from DA Nexus, but didn't have any dialogue triggers.  Unless it is approval based, because I didn't have enough maps to impress him!

Be careful with Romanceable Loghain though. In my game, it caused several problems. People seeing my gal as a man as well as a romance loop with Zevran.

As a man?    It does seem a little thrown-together.  No offense to the mod creator.  I have no idea how to get Loghain's approval that high anyway.  Obviously I wasn't diligent in collecting maps.

Feastday gifts....

Or the correct dialogue options in camp, esp. the "What do you want?" reply when he asks you what you want from him.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

What I think is funny is how bored she looks.  But, she is married to the guy in alternate reality, so she's used to it.  He probably air-duels like that all the time.  LOL

Haha, you're right, she is more like "*sigh* What ev. . ." Poor Loghain.

Actually I forgot another major benefit of my saving as much of the game as possible for after I recruited him: I got to drag him into banters with a number of party members without having to force things like by changing parties in the Orzammar Commons and then walking back and forth through the Proving doors and across that entrance walk. Without doing that I got him 2 banters each with Dog, Leliana, Sten and Morrigan, and one each with Oghren and Zevran. I don't think he had one with Shale in my playthrough. He has a couple with her in my fic, though.

[Addai]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

What I think is funny is how bored she looks.  But, she is married to the guy in alternate reality, so she's used to it.  He probably air-duels like that all the time.  LOL

Haha, you're right, she is more like "*sigh* What ev. . ." Poor Loghain.

Actually I forgot another major benefit of my saving as much of the game as possible for after I recruited him: I got to drag him into banters with a number of party members without having to force things like by changing parties in the Orzammar Commons and then walking back and forth through the Proving doors and across that entrance walk. Without doing that I got him 2 banters each with Dog, Leliana, Sten and Morrigan, and one each with Oghren and Zevran. I don't think he had one with Shale in my playthrough. He has a couple with her in my fic, though.

I heard one.  He tells her that he knew of a golem when he was fighting with Maric, in the service of the Arl of Redcliffe, and mentions it was more servile.  Then he asks if she could be the same one and she puts her snark on and says "do I seem servile to you?"  I had to squee at the TST reference.  *hugs TST*


Is it just me or is his default expression a little smirk?

Modifié par Addai67, 15 novembre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

Is it just me or is his default expression a little smirk?

Of the wry, acerbic variety, yes, I think so. With attendant brow-crinkle. Pretty much any "screenshot" I ever got of him had one or both of those ingredients.

And one smile:



. . .though even this one has a brow-crinkle, I think. It's tough to tell. The lighting in the post-coronation chamber was brutal for the type of screenshots I'm forced to take.