12857 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Ah, upgrade wand? Sounds interesting. I think I might get that mod.

Be careful. I had to remove it after it ruined many areas with invisible objects.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Ah, upgrade wand? Sounds interesting. I think I might get that mod.

Be careful. I had to remove it after it ruined many areas with invisible objects.

Oh??  I didn't have any problem with it.  Of course, I do have some invisible objects that trouble my game but I attributed those to Winter Forge which did not cleanly uninstall.

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...

Have you tried Lois McMaster Bujold? She has written military scifi (MIles Vorkosigan books) as well as fantasy (Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls).

She looks interesting- such smart people who write these books.  I have a lot of sci fi on my "to read" list.  Have read more history than speculative stuff, though I got on a sci fi kick after becoming addicted to Orson Scott Card a couple years back.

Pic for o/tness and for squeeness.  I find it appropriate that Loghain's eyes are open here.  It reminds me of Rowan saying that even after knowing him for three years, his eyes still unsettled her.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Do you have any writers you like who write military fiction?  GRRM does a great job of it, I think.  He really makes such things come alive.  I've also read some Steven Pressfield, who is good but more on the encyclopedic side.

I don't read much fiction, if any lately. I prefer historical books and the like.

Of course I don't expect any game that isn't an RTS / RTT, to be adamant about accuracy and realism vis a vis warfare. But in DA:O, there is virtually no effort put to make it feel like a real war. Details like scouting missions with the son of a teyrn that are supposed to end after the battle, a feigned attack on Redcliffe that is poorily executed, and a forced march on Denerim through darkspawn infested lands without any obstacle in the way. And the game not doing its best to not make it look like you are a one man army (other games are worse, true).

In Awakening, you have a strategic choice to make and though it matters little in reality, it was appreciated. In Origins, you are not given the opportunity to act like the commander you are supposed to be and was confirmed as in the Landsmeet.

Now through imagination and RPing, I can fill those huge gaps myself. But I would much rather have the game feel more like a war, at least post-Landsmeet. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 novembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Yep, 100% in agreement. If you think about it, the entire game reeks of sloppiness. All the writing concerning warfare, the military, tactics, specifically post Landsmeet is laughable (the entire fantasy genre is never able to show us war as it truly is). The entire Redcliffe quest is badly written. The rationale for doing Sacred Ashes quest gives me a headache (the quest itself is fine). The Civil war is virtually unexplored. Plothammers everwhere. Our choices don't have as much impact in-game as they should have (picking Bhelen should have added more dwarves in the final battle for instance). The DR does not take into consideration romance except for one line. Other than Loghain and the letters, RtO is useless and serves little to no purpose and I have a hard time RPing going there. The DLCs for the most part are weak (except for Shale and Warden's Keep).....etc etc

Yep. There were a few descisions I felt were forced and unatural, really poor execution, as well as ambience problems.

Sacred Ashes: yeah, totally agree there. Forced to heal/revive Eamon, really. You have no treaties with him, no real reason other than Alistair THINKS he might help. Um....no. And when Sten points out what a waste of time it is, well.....I wish I could have went into a diatribe agreeing with him.

Landsmeet: You either make Loghain a Warden or execute him. Two options that really are limited, and unfortunately, are not what the majority of my characters would choose. A third option: imprisonment/exile/postponed trial until after Blight would have made L:andsmeet a less facepalm moment.

Hardening Alistair: Contrived. Really, I think they could have worked it into a series of a few events/pivotal  moments that accumulate in his change of heart and outlook, as well as ingame consequences, beyond the king descision, that will be efefcted by this.

Orzammar: better indications of the agendas of both candidates to make RPing a choice of king for a non-dwarf Warden more believable without metagaming or blind choice.

Cailan and Celene: I still haven't seen a good explaination as to why this most intriguing and central plot element was left out, as I can think of alot of other quests that could have been omitted without effecting the game and story (Dalish quest, redcliffe). I think including this would have also been a major expansion into Loghain;s motives/thinking, whatever they were.

Really, DA:O shines with companions, NPCs and the general lore broadly speaking (it doesn't do as well if you look at the details though).

And DA:O had 5 years of dev time, I wonder how they are going to make DA2 better in that regard. 

That is what worries me the most. We were supposed to get 2 years of DLC, and when I saw the Feb 2011 date, I was certain it would be a final proper expansion wrapping things up, returning companions from Awakening and Prigins. I felt lead in my stomach when I learned it would be DA2, and looking at how they developed content after origins and the direction they seem to be taking, I am not optimistic. I'm willing to wait and see, naturally, it could very well end up epic and awesome.

However, I', not gonna hold my breath.

[Giggles_Manically]

After the Landsmeet there are so many bugs, that it makes me want to scream.

Most have been fixed by mods, but there are still alot of them.



I wish there were military choices in Origins, like you get in Awakening that made you feel more like a commander really.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Cailan and Celene: I still haven't seen a good explaination as to why this most intriguing and central plot element was left out, as I can think of alot of other quests that could have been omitted without effecting the game and story (Dalish quest, redcliffe). I think including this would have also been a major expansion into Loghain;s motives/thinking, whatever they were.

I am actually glad they left the original plot out.

Loghain leaving half of Ferelden's army, his men, just to kill Cailan? That would have made me disrespect him and would have probably made me execute him, or at least would have given me more reason to do so. If he wanted Cailan dead (and I would have approved of killing him), there are other ways to do so without having to leave half the army.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 novembre 2010 - 10:56 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I am actually glad they left the original plot out.

Loghain leaving half of Ferelden's army, his men, just to kill Cailan? That would have made me disrespect him and would have probably made me execute him, or at least would have given me more reason to do so. If he wanted Cailan dead (and I would have approved of killing him), there are other ways to do so without having to leave half the army.

I agree that assassinating Cailan more subtly would have been a much better plan. And when i first played the  game, that is exactly what I thought happened with Loghain: He abandoned Cailan to kill him because he thought Cailan was unfit as king, and in doing so,  sacrificed the lives of thousands to do so, thus making executing him a no-brainer. But that was before DLC and reading TST, as well as later playthroughs.

However, in the Cailan and celene scenario, we don't know for sure if that is the reason, or what it would mean. In game, we can only speculate as to exactly how much information Loghain and/or Anora had on the matter, and which nobles knew/were involved in and supported the marriage. I don't think having that particular plot element would necessarily mean that this would be the whole scenario. It could have been far more complicated than that, and shed light on alot of other things. It would have made the question of succession and the Landsmeet alot more complicated than it was, I think.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
However, in the Cailan and celene scenario, we don't know for sure if that is the reason, or what it would mean. In game, we can only speculate as to exactly how much information Loghain and/or Anora had on the matter, and which nobles knew/were involved in and supported the marriage. I don't think having that particular plot element would necessarily mean that this would be the whole scenario. It could have been far more complicated than that, and shed light on alot of other things. It would have made the question of succession and the Landsmeet alot more complicated than it was, I think.

Yes, they should have hinted more about the implications of the Orlesian intervention and the motives behind  it.
Now I might be biased, since I would have liked something more concretly in-game to vindicate Loghain's suspicions other than the letters only. No one other than Loghain seems to be bothered by the Orlesians, which is somewhat stupid.

If the Celene / Cailan  scenario was introduced in a way that did not show or make it definitive that Loghain retreated from Ostagar just to kill Cailan, I would have been fine with it. 

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Cailan and Celene: I still haven't seen a good explaination as to why this most intriguing and central plot element was left out, as I can think of alot of other quests that could have been omitted without effecting the game and story (Dalish quest, redcliffe). I think including this would have also been a major expansion into Loghain;s motives/thinking, whatever they were.

I am actually glad they left the original plot out.

Loghain leaving half of Ferelden's army, his men, just to kill Cailan? That would have made me disrespect him and would have probably made me execute him, or at least would have given me more reason to do so. If he wanted Cailan dead (and I would have approved of killing him), there are other ways to do so without having to leave half the army.

I agree. I'm glad they did it this way. I was severely unhappy when that plot was first confirmed and might have had something to do with Loghain's motivations. Not only does it seem like an excessive way to assassinate someone, but it also adds (for me) a measure of personal pettiness that would cause it to be harder for me to trust him enough to spare him. Not because of the danger from Orlais, which I would still find to be an acceptable reason to move against Cailan, but because of the possible taking-it-personally that could be involved because Anora was being set aside.

Having said that, even if it didn't happen that way, I imagine it could have, and it still adds to Loghain's characterization. Just like even when Anora doesn't betray you at the Landsmeet, metagame you know that she's capable of that, and it does add to her overall character.

So, if I knew that he'd known about Cailan's plans, it would have been a harder decision to spare him, but I think I still would have done it.

Now I might be biased, since I would have liked something more concretly in-game to vindicate Loghain's suspicions other than the letters only.

Absolutely. The Orlesian threat is nearly invisible in the game (but imo you can piece together why Loghain might think it's there), and if this plot was nearly invisible, too, it would really seem like Loghain was making stuff up.

Modifié par phaonica, 15 novembre 2010 - 11:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

Now I might be biased, since I would have liked something more concretly in-game to vindicate Loghain's suspicions other than the letters only.

Absolutely. The Orlesian threat is nearly invisible in the game (but imo you can piece together why Loghain might think it's there), and if this plot was nearly invisible, too, it would really seem like Loghain was making stuff up.

I like games and stories that don't spoon feed me everything and encourage me to think on my own. But yes, the game itself almost pretends that it's normal for Orlais to send troops to Ferelden and that only Loghain has a problem with it. They should have added a few hints and pieces.

They do hint at stuff in Awakening, like the political ambitions of the Wardens and the strategic importance of Amaranthine to the Orlesians (who essentially built the city), but that was after Origins. There are a few codexes in Origins that you can go through and put the pieces together, but something a bit more concret (but still subtle, that's how I prefer it) would have been better.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 novembre 2010 - 11:36 .

[Addai]

Do y'all really think that Loghain would ever have Maric and Rowan's son murdered?

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Do y'all really think that Loghain would ever have Maric and Rowan's son murdered?

If he put the future of Fereldan at risk yes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Do y'all really think that Loghain would ever have Maric and Rowan's son murdered?

If he was left with no choice? I can see him do that, but very relunctantly.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I like games and stories that don't spoon feed me everything and encourage me to think on my own. But yes, the game itself almost pretends that it's normal for Orlais to send troops to Ferelden and that only Loghain has a problem with it. They should have added a few hints and pieces.

They do hint at stuff in Awakening, like the political ambitions of the Wardens and the strategic importance of Amaranthine to the Orlesians (who essentially built the city), but that was after Origins. There are a few codexes in Origins that you can go through and put the pieces together, but something a bit more concret (but still subtle, that's how I prefer it) would have been better.

The Wardens and Orlais are presented similarly, I think. There is almost no Warden influence in Ferelden except yourself, yet by pulling from history and codex entries, the First Warden's letter, etc, you can get an overall picture of how the Wardens have traditionally operated. You can certainly piece together why someone in charge of a kingdom might mistrust them, yet almost no one except Loghain seems to have those suspicions. Same thing against Orlais. You have codex entries and history to go by, and an NPC or two who mentions living conditions in Orlas, but certainly no one except Loghain seems to express that they might be a continued threat. So why assume that everyone in Ferelden except Loghain is blind to these potential dangers? It's like, sometimes just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not there... and other times, that's exactly what it means...

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Do y'all really think that Loghain would ever have Maric and Rowan's son murdered?

If he really thought that Cailan was a danger to Ferelden, I think he might. Maric seemed convinced that Loghain would let Maric die if saving Maric put Ferelden at risk.

On the other hand, Loghain insists that he would not kill Anora to save Ferelden. Anora is not Cailan, obviously, but it does imply that there *are* some things that Loghain would not do for Ferelden.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
The Wardens and Orlais are presented similarly, I think. There is almost no Warden influence in Ferelden except yourself, yet by pulling from history and codex entries, the First Warden's letter, etc, you can get an overall picture of how the Wardens have traditionally operated.

Most of the key pieces of info concerning the Wardens stem from Awakening or outside of Origins though. Sources like the Calling, the First Warden Letter in Awakening, and the recent timeline that shows how the Wardens were essential in spreading Orlesian Chantry influence (which contradicts their supposed neutrality).
Now Origins has Warden's Keep to cast some suspicion, but on its own, I don't find it sufficient. On its own, it sounds more like an exception rather than the rule. If put together with the other data that we have from outside of Origins, it seems to fit a broader patern.

EDIT: Origins also has Riordan talkign about the Wardens in the Anderfels and how political they are, but that too on its own is insufficient and sounds more like a local phenomenon than anythign else.

phaonica wrote...
Same thing against Orlais. You have codex entries and history to go by, and an NPC or two who mentions living conditions in Orlas, but certainly no one except Loghain seems to express that they might be a continued threat. So why assume that everyone in Ferelden except Loghain is blind to these potential dangers? It's like, sometimes just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not there... and other times, that's exactly what it means...

I concur. I can understand Cailan, being the idiot that he is, being completely fine with the idea. But Anora and all other nobles?
Most of them are old enough to remember the occupation. And if not, most are old enough to know a lot about the occupation. 30 years in the life of a nation is really nothing. But the others act as if the Orlesian occupation happened a century ago. That is not an attitude of a people that have been described as fiercely independent in the codex.  

Ironically, we only see Howe being suspicious of Orlais. As if he is the only one with common sense.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 novembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Most of them are old enough to remember the occupation. And if not, most are old enough to know a lot about the occupation. 30 years in the life of a nation is really nothing. But the others act as if the Orlesian occupation happened a century ago. That is not an attitude of a people that have been described as fiercely independent in the codex.   
 

Exactly. So I couldn't explain exactly why I decided that I trusted Loghain and not ... well pretty much everyone else. Loghain's suspicions make sense to me, but the way the people practically ignore that the occupation occcured doesn't make sense to me.

Ironically, we only see Howe being suspicious of Orlais. As if he is the only one with common sense.

This had been mentioned before, and I'm rather embarrassed to admit that I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean how he brings up the Couslands' associations with Orlais? Or something else?

Modifié par phaonica, 16 novembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

Ironically, we only see Howe being suspicious of Orlais. As if he is the only one with common sense.

This had been mentioned before, and I'm rather embarrassed to admit that I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean how he brings up the Couslands' associations with Orlais? Or something else?

Just that in the dungeon (he says it in front of Loghain, but that's probably to please him). It might be him trying to rationalize it, but he does sound displeased about the Couslands being ok with Orlais and is suspicious of them.

Howe does not seem to me, to be a man that would find excuses for his actions unless he needs to. He would tell us bluntly that he killed our parents just because he wanted power. He didn't really need to tell us about the Orlesian association, we were alone. And yet he does.

It could be him trying to rationalize it because well, Bryce was his friend and he subconsciously is trying to justify his actions to himself and not really to us (because he doesn't seem to give a damn what we think). Or it could be that he genuinely felt suspicion towards Orlais and the Couslands being somewhat close to them. 

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Ironically, we only see Howe being suspicious of Orlais. As if he is the only one with common sense.

This had been mentioned before, and I'm rather embarrassed to admit that I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean how he brings up the Couslands' associations with Orlais? Or something else?

Just that in the dungeon (he says it in front of Loghain, but that's probably to please him). It might be him trying to rationalize it, but he does sound displeased about the Couslands being ok with Orlais and is suspicious of them.

Howe does not seem to me, to be a man that would find excuses for his actions unless he needs to. He would tell us bluntly that he killed our parents just because he wanted power. He didn't really need to tell us about the Orlesian association, we were alone. And yet he does.

It could be him trying to rationalize it because well, Bryce was his friend and he subconsciously is trying to justify his actions to himself and not really to us (because he doesn't seem to give a damn what we think). Or it could be that he genuinely felt suspicion towards Orlais and the Couslands being somewhat close to them. 

Okay. I don't spend a lot of time considering Howe. He usually seems rather straight-forward as far as characterization goes. I only just now looked up his lines in the dungeon to see what I had missed, and his line about Orlais was one of them. I agree that I don't see him as someone who feels the need to make excuses in that moment. He's pretty candid. If he expresses anti-Orlesian sentiments as part of his motivations, I believe him.

Still, "He (Bryce) was a traitor to me and a coward to his nation! Trips to Orlais, gifts from old enemies; all while I sank in obscurity," sounds like he's more upset that the Couslands were getting the gifts, not that it was Orlais giving them.

But then there's this...
PC: Loghain's plan. Now.
Howe: Loghain's plan is to save Ferelden. From real threats, here and now. (VO: Derision. "Are you an idiot? Isn't it obvious? Kick ass, take names.")
Howe: Ferelden needs a king who has *known* command. With the proper advisor at his side, of course. (VO: Inspiring, then knowing wink. "We need someone who inspires, and we need me to get paid a lot of money as his right hand man.")

The ship is clearly sinking, yet he's not jumping overboard to try to save himself, he's continuing to support Loghain. Does Howe hate Orlais enough to go down with the ship? Or is he like the proverbial monkey with his hand trapped in the jar, that he's so unwilling to give up what he's taken that he's unreasonably trapped?

Modifié par phaonica, 16 novembre 2010 - 01:49 .

[Sarah1281]

WAS the ship sinking at that point? Eamon tells you that Loghain's position in the Landsmeet is strong, Loghain had all but won the civil war, none of the nobles are interested in playing politics with the Blight consuming half the country and they felt Anora and Loghain were good enough. Most of the evidence that you present at the Landsmeet comes from Howe's estate or from what Anora can tell you. Anora can't be freed until killing the mage next to Howe. If Howe can kill you, which he thinks he can, then not only is the kind candidate potentially dead but so is a strong ally of Eamon's and Howe can use this attack on him in the Landsmeet to strengthen Loghain's case.



Really, without succeeding at Howe's all you have at the Landsmeet is Ostagar which no one believes, the Blight which Loghain now admits to, and Eamon's poisoning which convinces no one without Alfstanna's support once she sees the brother in Howe's dungeon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
Still, "He (Bryce) was a traitor to me and a coward to his nation! Trips to Orlais, gifts from old enemies; all while I sank in obscurity," sounds like he's more upset that the Couslands were getting the gifts, not that it was Orlais giving them.

Accusing Bryce of treason and cowardice and calling the Orlesians old enemies, seems to indicate that it does matter to him that it's Orlais giving those gifts.
It's not mutually exclusive. He can and is jealous of the Couslands, he says so when we intimidate or persuade him. But he also seems suspicious of those gifts from "old enemies". I think he meant the Orlesians by that. 

phaonica wrote...
The ship is clearly sinking, yet he's not jumping overboard to try to save himself, he's continuing to support Loghain. Does Howe hate Orlais enough to go down with the ship? Or is he like the proverbial monkey with his hand trapped in the jar, that he's so unwilling to give up what he's taken that he's unreasonably trapped?

Is the ship realy sinking?
Loghain has militarily defeated the bannorn and he wins the Landsmeet by default, if we don't use arguments that we don't know about yet at that moment.

Personal ambition and greed are no doubt part of what motivated Howe. Perhaps even the largest part. But Ferelden interests and suspicion of Orlais also seem to be part of his motivation, if perhaps only slim or eclypsed.

[phaonica]

WAS the ship sinking at that point?

All of that is true. I guess I was thinking about Howe's expressing near the beginning of the game that if the civil war continued that there might not be enough of an army to turn against the darkspawn. Even if Loghain is winning the civil war and holding on to his power, after all that, would Loghain still have the resources to turn them against the darkspawn? Maybe the tide of the civil war did turn enough from that point on for Howe to believe that Loghain could defeat the Blight with the diminished resources.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Just that in the dungeon (he says it in front of Loghain, but that's probably to please him). It might be him trying to rationalize it, but he does sound displeased about the Couslands being ok with Orlais and is suspicious of them.

Howe does not seem to me, to be a man that would find excuses for his actions unless he needs to. He would tell us bluntly that he killed our parents just because he wanted power. He didn't really need to tell us about the Orlesian association, we were alone. And yet he does.

It could be him trying to rationalize it because well, Bryce was his friend and he subconsciously is trying to justify his actions to himself and not really to us (because he doesn't seem to give a damn what we think). Or it could be that he genuinely felt suspicion towards Orlais and the Couslands being somewhat close to them. 

Maybe, but I think he's just talking for Loghain's benefit.  He doesn't say that when you confront him at his estate, does he?  All I remember is him talking about Cousland ambitions and not getting his.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Maybe, but I think he's just talking for Loghain's benefit.  He doesn't say that when you confront him at his estate, does he?  All I remember is him talking about Cousland ambitions and not getting his.

Howe can mention Orlais when you confront him at his estate. If the PC says something like "How could you do what you did? Bryce was your friend." Howe will respond: "He (Bryce) was a traitor to me and a coward to his nation! Trips to Orlais, gifts from old enemies; all while I sank in obscurity."