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[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Hmm Addai, what armor you using there for Loghain? ( In gate kiss movie that is ).

Anyway, here is a song for Loghain. Audiomachine: House of Cards. More specifically a Loghain romance theme....I think.

This is interesting- finally got to hear this- I wasn't expecting a rock/orchestral song (not familiar with the group).  But I added it to my playlist.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...
I like that song! A LOT! 

My Loghain romance song would be "The Hand Of Sorrow" by Within Temptation:

I added that to my playlist as well. 

P.S. All of you have seen these but for the interested, I did upload a few dialogue videos- talking about Anora and Orlais, talking about Maric.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 novembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[Persephone]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Persephone wrote...


To tell you the truth:

I always thought that the idea to "Recruit him and understand him better" was a bad one. Granted, we see Loghain being very exhausted and we also see that he despises Howe in the Denerim cutscenes... But I think more screentime as well as recruiting him earlier (Have the Landsmeet trigger as soon as Eamon is up and about) would have been a much better idea. Respec Mods or no (I use one), it would permit us to level Loghain more to our liking. We'd have the time to really get to know him and wouldn't be as close to Alistair as in the final game. But not everyone has read the books. Not everyone is a complete pragmatist. Not everyone feels emotionally moved by him as I do. So am I content? No. Especially since whatever dialogue we did get in the vanilla game is bugged. And as much as I like shades of grey, the War Council was subtle as a sledgehammer and the rest was too vague. Just my interpretation, of course. I adore the character, certainly, but IMO having him available ONLY before the final battle is a bad idea. Add to that the again not so subtle "reminder" of his "villainy" in the alienage.... (Feels totally OOC and unnecessary as there are much better ways to fill your coffers) No, I am not content at all. Then there is the "lost" dialogue in the toolset (I.E. the Slander quest, where he actually has some badass lines) and his general silence if you take him along during sidequests (Except WP & RTO)...Sloppy, Bioware, just SLOPPY!

This. Given the fact he is your prime nemesis throughout the game, and such an important figure in the lore and setting, it was extremely disappointing the lack of content related to him. The cuts and loose ends they left with Loghain make it even more painful. It's clear that after Landsmeet, everything was rushed, and I think it was sloppy. Loghain as a companion was pure afterthought, I think.

There is alot more regarding him, and all we have is speculation because the developers dropped the ball. Thankfully, we have talented and dedicated modders to sort things out that the developers were too lazy to do. My only regret is that we can't pay them for their work.

Precisely. However, I don't really think it actually WAS an afterthought. Given that the original idea was to have the Landsmeet trigger much sooner so you you can recruit him earlier. Given how bugged the game is once the Landsmeet plot has triggered....I think they ran out of time and money to do this, the most enigmatic, fascinating character in the entire game (To me, anyway) justice. They didn't even let you reach "Friendly" (And the changed dialogue) with him in the vanilla game. Why? Because they rushed it in the end or because they assumed that most would execute him anyway? (Sad in either case) Well, since Alistair still thinks he is king no matter what you do in the vanilla game.......

[Beaner28]

I would've been more likely to forgive Loghain if it hadn't been for the whole 'branding the Grey Wardens as traitors' thing. After that reveal in Lothering I knew Loghain was a dead man.

Modifié par Beaner28, 16 novembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[Persephone]

Beaner28 wrote...

I would've been more likely to forgive Loghain if it hadn't been for the whole 'branding the Grey Wardens as traitors' thing. After that reveal in Lothering I knew Loghain was a dead man.

Strangely enough, I never took that personally. I found it to be quite entertaining, as it provided one of my fave characters: Zevran.

[phaonica]

Persephone wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

I would've been more likely to forgive Loghain if it hadn't been for the whole 'branding the Grey Wardens as traitors' thing. After that reveal in Lothering I knew Loghain was a dead man.

Strangely enough, I never took that personally. I found it to be quite entertaining, as it provided one of my fave characters: Zevran.  

I never took it personally, either. The first time I heard it I was was like, "Oh, so he's going to blame the Wardens? That's inconvenient. Considering what he stirred up, though, I don't blame him." I tried to keep low-profile at first, in Lothering, but it quickly became apparent that it didn't really matter. People who wanted to fight me found out I was a warden regardless, and people whom I actually told didn't seem moved by Loghain's accusations.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I like that song! A LOT! 

My Loghain romance song would be "The Hand Of Sorrow" by Within Temptation:

I added that to my playlist as well. 

P.S. All of you have seen these but for the interested, I did upload a few dialogue videos- talking about Anora and Orlais, talking about Maric.

"I failed. Lives were in my hands, and I failed. Nothing excuses that." 

[Persephone]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I like that song! A LOT! 

My Loghain romance song would be "The Hand Of Sorrow" by Within Temptation:

I added that to my playlist as well. 

P.S. All of you have seen these but for the interested, I did upload a few dialogue videos- talking about Anora and Orlais, talking about Maric.

"I failed. Lives were in my hands, and I failed. Nothing excuses that." 

Amazing VO by Simon T. there. (Surprise!) The way that man can deliver pathos without sounding whiny or over the the top...it's amazing. Another reason why I adore that character: While he obviously feels regret, mourns and what not....he doesn't beg, grovel....it feels like one still has to earn HIS trust, even after recruiting him. And once I have...it feels like the greatest compliment my Warden lasses have ever received.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...
"I failed. Lives were in my hands, and I failed. Nothing excuses that." 

Yes, quite a line.

[roundcrow]

Addai67 wrote...
I interrupt this argument for some gratuitous squee.  Thanks Charsen. 

I think I broke a bone in my face squeeing.

Thank you, Addai, you are kind beyond measure to those of us with consoles.

[Costin_Razvan]

 You want an epic line, well here it is. Dragon Age: Thy End..

Always gets me teary eyed when I watch. The actual dialogue with Loghain starts at 4:15. The line that I want to mention is that 4:52.

[Addai]

roundcrow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I interrupt this argument for some gratuitous squee.  Thanks Charsen. 

I think I broke a bone in my face squeeing.

Thank you, Addai, you are kind beyond measure to those of us with consoles.

Aww, you're welcome!  I've been staring at those shots far too much.  But you should thank Charsen, who did all the hard work on the gate kiss mod.  I admit I had to go back and grab the Loghain ones since I hadn't loaded them when I first got the mod.  At the time I'm sure I thought, "who would want to kiss Loghain."  LOL

[Costin_Razvan]

 

  At the time I'm sure I thought, "who would want to kiss Loghain."  LOL

Ah but my dear, "Fate has a twisted sense of humor." 

[roundcrow]

Addai67 wrote...

roundcrow wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I interrupt this argument for some gratuitous squee.  Thanks Charsen. 

I think I broke a bone in my face squeeing.

Thank you, Addai, you are kind beyond measure to those of us with consoles.

Aww, you're welcome!  I've been staring at those shots far too much.  But you should thank Charsen, who did all the hard work on the gate kiss mod.  I admit I had to go back and grab the Loghain ones since I hadn't loaded them when I first got the mod.  At the time I'm sure I thought, "who would want to kiss Loghain."  LOL

My thanks to Charsen as well then!  

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



I like games and stories that don't spoon feed me everything and encourage me to think on my own. But yes, the game itself almost pretends that it's normal for Orlais to send troops to Ferelden and that only Loghain has a problem with it. They should have added a few hints and pieces.

But you do get subtle hints and clues that people aren't ok with Orlesian support. The biggest being the fact that there are a number of nobles who do side with Loghain. Given Loghain's open oppisition and paranoia of all things Orelsian, and given he does not believe this to be a Blight, it tells me that many nobles aren't too keen or trusting of the Orlesians. That there are a number of people who agree with him enough to support him as regent.

They do hint at stuff in Awakening, like the political ambitions of the Wardens and the strategic importance of Amaranthine to the Orlesians (who essentially built the city), but that was after Origins. There are a few codexes in Origins that you can go through and put the pieces together, but something a bit more concret (but still subtle, that's how I prefer it) would have been better.

The first Warden is in Anderfels, not Orlais. Only the Warden sent to Amaranthine, if not imported, is Orlesian. But the first Warden, no. And as far as I know, there aren't even hints at Anderfels/Orlesian alliances.

As far as the threat Orlais poses, that's debatable. Since Cailan is dead and the whole Cailan/Celene subplot removed, the threat from Orlais is only speculative, and thus, only important to Loghain and those who believe him. Beyond that, however, orlesian threats I think would run along the subtle/intriuge based path, which, pretty much, is not a "threat", but business as usualy between any nations, and thus, underserving of Loghain's intense and militant paranoia. In fact, those subtler threats would far better be dealt with by Anora, who is clever and resourseful enough to deal with those things.

Had the celene/Cailan subplot been left in the game, I would have actually given Loghain's paranoia and extremes more respect and consideration, since such a marriage would be a very lear and glaring threat right in your face. But since there isn't, and really, I personally do not believe there is an immediate or dire threat from orlais, I copnclude that Loghain's fears were overblown and not justified, once Cailan is dead and orlesian reinforcements blocked.

I do like to go on the premise that Loghain, a normally down to earth and rational person, is so consumed by the demons and boogeymen of the past, that he goes past the point of no return, and ultimately, becomes the thing he hates most. It makes him more real, and more complex, in that regard.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The first Warden is in Anderfels, not Orlais. Only the Warden sent to Amaranthine, if not imported, is Orlesian. But the first Warden, no. And as far as I know, there aren't even hints at Anderfels/Orlesian alliances.

The First Warden in the Anderfels commands all Wardens and he wants to expand their political power.
The Orlesian Wardens, like all Wardens, answer to him.

Fufthermore, we know that the Orlesian commander in Awakening was in the Orlesian Imperial court, hinting at a political connection.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Beyond that, however, orlesian threats I think would run along the subtle/intriuge based path, which, pretty much, is not a "threat", but business as usualy between any nations

Those are threats, potentially existential threats, especially to a nation as weak as Ferelden, though yes, Loghain's reaction was, in hindsight, exagerrated.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
But since there isn't, and really, I personally do not believe there is an immediate or dire threat from orlais, I conclude that Loghain's fears were overblown and not justified, once Cailan is dead and orlesian reinforcements blocked.

There is no guarantee that they are blocked, and not simply waiting for the perfect moment to strike. Metagaming, we know that is not the case. Loghain could not, though his sense of priority is questionable.
He did not know aqbout the marriage plan for him to conclude that Cailan's death essentially neutralised whatever Celene was planing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 novembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


The First Warden in the Anderfels commands all Wardens and he wants to expand their political power.
The Orlesian Wardens, like all Wardens, answer to him.

Precisely. In otherwords, they do not answer to the Orlesian Empress per se, they are there at the First Warden's bidding, furthering Warden political agendas, as opposed to orlesian ones.

Fufthermore, we know that the Orlesian commander in Awakening was in the Orlesian Imperial court, hinting at a political connection.

We also know that from the letters to Cailan, the way celene talks about the Warden Commander of Orlais tells me that the Wardens are pretty hooked up in the court of orlais. However, this could mean, just as easily, the First Warden using them to build political power and influence in orlais for the Wardens, and thus, once again, Orlesian wardens in the court furthering the ambitions and agendas of the Warden's First.

I mean, sure, celene the Great is formidable and ruthless, however, from the sounds of it, the First Warden is no idiot himself, probably just as ruthless and cunning. According to the things we learn in game, the Wardens all but run the Anderfels.

What this means for any plans for Ferelden, orlais, or any other country hosting the Wardens is anyone's guess, and there is certainly a buffet of possibilities for speculation. However, i don't even see the subtle hints in game that Orlais is directly plotting behind the Wardens, or has anything to do with them, once Cailan is removed from the equation.

[Zjarcal]

phaonica wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

I would've been more likely to forgive Loghain if it hadn't been for the whole 'branding the Grey Wardens as traitors' thing. After that reveal in Lothering I knew Loghain was a dead man.

Strangely enough, I never took that personally. I found it to be quite entertaining, as it provided one of my fave characters: Zevran.  

I never took it personally, either. The first time I heard it I was was like, "Oh, so he's going to blame the Wardens? That's inconvenient. Considering what he stirred up, though, I don't blame him." I tried to keep low-profile at first, in Lothering, but it quickly became apparent that it didn't really matter. People who wanted to fight me found out I was a warden regardless, and people whom I actually told didn't seem moved by Loghain's accusations.

Add me to the "never took it personally" list.  Well, my City Elf did take it personally but then again she's a loose cannon that doesn't forgive or forget. But my canon HN understood why he did it and even though she wasn't happy about it, she didn't take it personally.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Precisely. In otherwords, they do not answer to the Orlesian Empress per se, they are there at the First Warden's bidding, furthering Warden political agendas, as opposed to orlesian ones.

They are not necessarily opposed, they can be mutually complimentary. The Wardens afterall have hsitorically assisted Orlais in expanding its influence.

In addition, the Wardens are financed by stipends from countries. Naturally, the country that provides the most stipends is going to have the most influence. Which country do you think that is?

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
However, i don't even see the subtle hints in game that Orlais is directly plotting behind the Wardens, or has anything to do with them, once Cailan is removed from the equation.

I find it unlikely that the First Warden did not see an opportunity to expand his influence into Ferelden with Orlesian assistance, and vice versa.
Orlais most certainly has something to do with the Wardens, they are allies and potential co-conspirators. Orlais is the most powerful nation in Thedas as of yet, so I assume they offer the most stipends to the Wardens, they are bound to have influence. In addition to Warden dealings in the Imperial court.

The Wardens might not be puppets like Loghain might have thought. But I do believe they are allies and their goals are not mutually exclusive, indeed they are better off assisting one another. The Wardens are going to value Orlais much more than Ferelden. And if necessary, would side with Orlais against Ferelden, if that's where their interests lie.

[Giggles_Manically]

If Loghain was made the Arl of Amaranthine in Awakening though what do you think he would do for all the big choices?



I think that he would recruit Sigrun, and Justice but I am not sure about Velanna.

I am fairly certain that he would save the keep.

But for the rest I have no real idea what he would decide.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I do not think that the First Warden would be brazen and stupid enough to expand his influence in Ferelden through direct collaboration with the Orlesians. He must, after all, at least keep up the appeasrance of political neutrality, especially in Ferelden, where the Wardens were kicked out once before for not minding their own business. Sending a Warden to run Amaranthine is risky and bold enough as is, I can't see him jepardizing the interests of the Wardens in Ferelden by working mutually with orlesian interests. It would not help the Wardens at all, I do not think.



As far as orlais, I'm not certain they arethe most influential country with the Wardens. I don't think the Wardens would jeopardize their neutrality with other countries by working alongside orlesian interests. There are Wardens in almost every country in Thedas, several of which are either at war with, or on less than firnedly terms with the Orlesian empire. While working with Orlesian interests might provide a large stipend from the empress, there are more nations in Thedas that would not dig this, and some of them are quite powerful and influential, such as Nevarra and Tevinter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I do not think that the First Warden would be brazen and stupid enough to expand his influence in Ferelden through direct collaboration with the Orlesians. He must, after all, at least keep up the appeasrance of political neutrality, especially in Ferelden, where the Wardens were kicked out once before for not minding their own business. Sending a Warden to run Amaranthine is risky and bold enough as is, I can't see him jepardizing the interests of the Wardens in Ferelden by working mutually with orlesian interests. It would not help the Wardens at all, I do not think.

It does not have to be open collaboration, it can be covert. I am pretty sure the First Warden was planing for a post-Blight Ferelden after an Orlesian intervention. Even if he didn't know about the marriage proposal, both Orlais and the  wardens expanding their influence into Ferelden, without necessarily conquering it, is what someone who is politically ambitious would do.
In otherwords, if the First Warden was planing to expand his political role, specifically in Ferelden as the occurence of the Blight is perfect justification, he could not do so without Orlesian consent, as their intevention would essentially make them the main power broker in the country.

If the Orlesians do conquer Ferelden militarily, the First Warden can always make a backroom deal with Orlais while officially remaining neutral. It is definitely possible and sounds like something the First Warden would do.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 novembre 2010 - 07:36 .

[roundcrow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I do not think that the First Warden would be brazen and stupid enough to expand his influence in Ferelden through direct collaboration with the Orlesians. He must, after all, at least keep up the appeasrance of political neutrality, especially in Ferelden, where the Wardens were kicked out once before for not minding their own business. Sending a Warden to run Amaranthine is risky and bold enough as is, I can't see him jepardizing the interests of the Wardens in Ferelden by working mutually with orlesian interests. It would not help the Wardens at all, I do not think.

It does not have to be open collaboration, it can be covert. I am pretty sure the First Warden was planing for a post-Blight Ferelden after an Orlesian intervention. Even if he didn't know about the marriage proposal, both Orlais and the  wardens expanding their influence into Ferelden, without necessarily conquering it, is what someone who is politically ambitious would do.
In otherwords, if the First Warden was planing to expand his political role, specifically in Ferelden as the occurence of the Blight is perfect justification, he could not do so without Orlesian consent, as their intevention would essentially make them the main power broker in the country.

If the Orlesians do conquer Ferelden militarily, the First Warden can always make a backroom deal with Orlais while officially remaining neutral. It is definitely possible and sounds like something the First Warden would do.

I would assume that the main qualification to be First Warden would be a close-to-supernatural ability to appear to remain neutral while making deals of some sort with every nation in Thedas.  I imagine a First Warden who was unable to do that would quickly develop an acute case of death.  

One assumes, though, that since these nations are on better terms with the Wardens that at least the people at the very top of the hierarchy have some sense of why the Wardens are necessary, and so are more willing to harbor them within their borders, which brings me to another gripe.  Why all the secrecy, anyway?  What on earth are people going to do with the knowledge that only a Warden can end a Blight?  It's not the eleven herbs and spices, for Andraste's sake.  I've read the better part of the Codex but I still can't understand that as much more than hand-waving for the sake of plot, unless one of the side effects of the Joining is to become an insufferably self-important douchebag.

/somewhat incoherent rant.  Yes, I am yelling at clouds.

[KnightofPhoenix]

roundcrow wrote...
I would assume that the main qualification to be First Warden would be a close-to-supernatural ability to appear to remain neutral while making deals of some sort with every nation in Thedas.  I imagine a First Warden who was unable to do that would quickly develop an acute case of death. 

He does not have to make deals with every nation, some are more important than others.
And those deals can always be covert.
If he isn't planing on threatening the sovereignity of any state, then it is possible to maintain neutrality and expand political influence, using the recent Blight as justification.

It depends on how ambitious he is. If the First Warden thinks he can directly threaten and challenge the sovereignity of nations, then he'd probably develop a case of death.

roundcrow wrote...
Why all the secrecy, anyway?  What on earth are people going to do with the knowledge that only a Warden can end a Blight?  It's not the eleven herbs and spices, for Andraste's sake.

The joining is practically blood magic, so maybe the Chantry has something to do with it.
Also, it might tarnish their mystique. Them being tainted and all.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 novembre 2010 - 08:07 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The joining is practically blood magic, so maybe the Chantry has something to do with it.
Also, it might tarnish their mystique. Them being tainted and all.

i don't know about that. Seems everyone and their friggin hamster, except Jory, Daveth, and you, knows about the joining.

And the blood for the ritual has to be prepared by mages in some way. The mages can't fart without templar permission, so it is safe to assume that templars will be present while the mages to their work, or at least be aware of what they are doing. And if the templars know, the Chantry knows.

The only reason I can see the Warden Joining being a secret is it will probably have a serious effect on recruitment numbers. Only people with a serious deathwish or no future plans/ambitions would volunteer, and I think even some conscripts would choose normal death over a slow, long one.