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[CalJones]

The Chantry HQ is in Val Royeaux, where the White Divine is located. It's a little like the Catholic church being based in Rome, I suppose. The religion itself isn't Orlesian, but its power base is in Orlais.

[Costin_Razvan]

MortalEngines: Many people are taught history in most countries at a young age, however most don't remember most of it later on in life cause they care for it.



My point was never to defend the Monarchy, but rather to point out that for all the good reasons some people might have for starting a Revolution, they are still defined traitors.

[MortalEngines]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

MortalEngines: Many people are taught history in most countries at a young age, however most don't remember most of it later on in life cause they care for it.

My point was never to defend the Monarchy, but rather to point out that for all the good reasons some people might have for starting a Revolution, they are still defined traitors.

They are defined as traitors by the Monarchy, what the Monarchy says is not absolute. If a monarchy is tyrannical then a rebellion against it would be considered a saviour not a traitor. Only those who FAIL are considered traitors. Plus by your definition both Arl Howe and Loghain were traitors (especially Loghain).

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

The Chantry HQ is in Val Royeaux, where the White Divine is located. It's a little like the Catholic church being based in Rome, I suppose. The religion itself isn't Orlesian, but its power base is in Orlais.

And?  As I said, there's no evidence that Loghain thinks the Chantry is operating as Orlesian agents.  Even so, to then extend that to the Grey Wardens is even more tenuous.  As if Duncan was so tight with the Grand Cleric...

Man, you guys are out-Loghaining Loghain.  Give your boy a little credit.  LOL

[Costin_Razvan]

Plus by your definition both Arl Howe and Loghain were traitors (especially Loghain).

When you rebel against your king, whom you swear fealty, then regardless of how you might be viewed you are still a traitor.

Howe was a traitor through and through, but Loghain not so much because what he did does not fit the definition of treason.

Yes, Loghain did want to act against Cailan ( if Cailan proved too big of a fool ) and if he had done so then he would be a traitor. BUT retreating his troops from a battle where he did not believe victory was possible ( Gaider's words on this forum ), where he asked Cailan to not enter the battle for it could go ill...isn't treason. Unless I am mistaken, Gaider pointed out that Loghain did not want to kill Cailan, he wanted to save him. ( but failed )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 août 2010 - 03:26 .

[CalJones]

I said nothing of the sort. I was just pointing out why KoP described the Chantry as Orlesian. I didn't say anything about Loghain. *facepalm*

[Monica21]

MortalEngines wrote...
You make several valid points, it's hard to find holes in your argument .

I do have question though, what does Orlais seek to gain from taking Fereldan back? There are many other weaker nations in Thedas (for instance, Anderfel) that it could gain land and power from, what is the point of starting another huge war when like you said, Orlais is one of the most powerful nations (though I believe the Tevinter Imperium can rival it) why would it need to start up ANOTHER war?.

I don't understand what the Wardens would gain either. There duty is to the blight, aiding Orlais take Fereldan would not help in further situations with the darkspawn. I think alot of stuff in-game is exaggerated by Loghain. 

Just to go back to this point, if the blight is defeated in Ferelden with the aid of Orlesian Warden and Chevaliers, Ferelden has been significantly weakened. Its resources had been going to the blight after all, and could not withstand another attack. Orlais has far more resources and wouldn't have to expend much to retake Ferelden. Loghain's concerns at the Landsmeet about not being willing to expect the Orlesian troops to just go back to Orlais are well-founded, in my opinion. His country would have been decimated, with nothing left to fight back with.

As to the Orlesian Wardens, I have no idea if they'd fight with the Chevaliers, but I doubt it. If the blight ends then they go back home, leaving the Chevaliers to do whatever they do under the Empress' orders.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I said nothing of the sort. I was just pointing out why KoP described the Chantry as Orlesian. I didn't say anything about Loghain. *facepalm*

Oh ok, sorry! 

I am just amused at KoP's attempt to work out logic to Loghain's condemnation of the Wardens that's deeper than "I need a scapegoat and never liked you much anwyay."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eum, not getting into debates about Cromwell.

MortalEngines wrote...
I do have question though, what does Orlais seek to gain from taking Fereldan back? There are many other weaker nations in Thedas (for instance, Anderfel) that it could gain land and power from, what is the point of starting another huge war when like you said, Orlais is one of the most powerful nations (though I believe the Tevinter Imperium can rival it) why would it need to start up ANOTHER war?.

The Anderfels is a barren and a very poor country, Orlais stands to gain nothing from them. Not to mention that the people of the Anderfels are feared for being great warriors.  
As to why they would invade Ferelden? Why did they do it in the past? Orlais is definately powerful, but it has been in decline. Invading Ferelden might restore lost prestige. Or omni-balancing internal problems to the outside (very common way to make nobles stfu). They don't even need to officially invade Ferelden, they can turn it into a puppet regime (that's what they did before technically).

There are many reasons as to why Orlais would want to re-invade Ferelden. Add the fact that they have a very intelligent Empress on the throne, and I would be cautious as well.  

MortalEngines wrote...
I don't understand what the Wardens would gain either. There duty is to the blight, aiding Orlais take Fereldan would not help in further situations with the darkspawn. I think alot of stuff in-game is exaggerated by Loghain. 

Aaah, but the First Warden was very interested in the fact that Wadens control Amaranthine. And sees it as an opportunity to show that Wardens can be necessary even without a blight. The Wardens are not apolitical.

Just like the Wardens thought they would gain by helping Drakon and his Empire / Chantry, maybe they think they will benefit from helping Orlais again. We can discuss motivations all day, the relevent question however is. What's stopping them from doing so? Nothing really.

@ Addai. You didn't get my argument.

I am not arguying that Loghain thinks the Chantry is an Orlesian tool (he probably does, considering what happened in TST). I am arguing that historically speaking, the Wardens helped Orlais as an Empire and helped spread its chantry organisation, thus imperial influence (both of which, especially the latter, happened after the blights). The Wardens and Orlais have a very tight history.
So if the Wardens helped them in the past, what's stopping them from helping them now? That's my argument.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 août 2010 - 04:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I am just amused at KoP's attempt to work out logic to Loghain's condemnation of the Wardens that's deeper than "I need a scapegoat and never liked you much anwyay."

Why do you think he never liked them? Why do you think he calls you an Orlesian puppeter? That's why.
Because he thinks Wardens are Orlesian agents. 

And as I have explained, this is not a farfetched belief.  

[Wulfram]

If Loghain was worried about Orlais, perhaps he should have come up with a plan which didn't involve getting Ferelden's army destroyed and starting a stupid civil war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

If Loghain was worried about Orlais, perhaps he should have come up with a plan which didn't involve getting Ferelden's army destroyed and starting a stupid civil war.

Yes, he should have killed Cailan from the very beginning.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If Loghain was worried about Orlais, perhaps he should have come up with a plan which didn't involve getting Ferelden's army destroyed and starting a stupid civil war.

Yes, he should have killed Cailan from the very beginning.

Err.....how would THAT avoid a Civil War? True it would save the army but I can see him losing political allies if he outright killed Cailan.

Not saying I disagree with the logic of killing Cailan, as Loghain would have saved the entire army, but I do not think it would help that much.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 août 2010 - 04:41 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I am just amused at KoP's attempt to work out logic to Loghain's condemnation of the Wardens that's deeper than "I need a scapegoat and never liked you much anwyay."

Why do you think he never liked them? Why do you think he calls you an Orlesian puppeter? That's why.
Because he thinks Wardens are Orlesian agents. 

And as I have explained, this is not a farfetched belief.  

If you believe Loghain's extreme paranoia in general is justified, it's no surprise you think so.  Hell, the whole damn country is full of Orlesian spies in his mind.  Anyone not directly under his thumb is suspect.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Costin. Kill as in secretly assassinate. Blame it on Orlesians.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 août 2010 - 04:45 .

[Wulfram]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Err.....how would THAT avoid a Civil War? True it would save the army but I can see him losing political allies if he outright killed Cailan.

Not saying I disagree with the logic of killing Cailan, as Loghain would have saved the entire army, but I do not think it would help that much.

He shouldn't do it himself, obviously.  Hire an assassin, blame it on the orlesians.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
If you believe Loghain's extreme paranoia in general is justified, it's no surprise you think so.  Hell, the whole damn country is full of Orlesian spies in his mind.  Anyone not directly under his thumb is suspect.

I believe his suspicions have enough reason to exist yes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 août 2010 - 04:46 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
I don't understand what the Wardens would gain either. There duty is to the blight, aiding Orlais take Fereldan would not help in further situations with the darkspawn. I think alot of stuff in-game is exaggerated by Loghain. 

Aaah, but the First Warden was very interested in the fact that Wadens control Amaranthine. And sees it as an opportunity to show that Wardens can be necessary even without a blight. The Wardens are not apolitical.

Just like the Wardens thought they would gain by helping Drakon and his Empire / Chantry, maybe they think they will benefit from helping Orlais again. We can discuss motivations all day, the relevent question however is. What's stopping them from doing so? Nothing really. 

I think there might be even another level to Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens that hasn't been mentioned here yet. Loghain believes that the Wardens *want* this to be a Blight. In the Calling he says "This order has been waning in importance since the last Blight and would do anything to frighten the world into believing they still have relevance." Loghain thinks the Wardens want this to be a Blight as badly as Cailan does and for exactly the same reasons: glory.

[MortalEngines]

To all those who responded to my comments, I've changed my perspective (consider it you guys opening my eyes a bit), and so I might be responding in well...for a different angle let's say .

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Plus by your definition both Arl Howe and Loghain were traitors (especially Loghain).

When you rebel against your king, whom you swear fealty, then regardless of how you might be viewed you are still a traitor.

Howe was a traitor through and through, but Loghain not so much because what he did does not fit the definition of treason.

Yes, Loghain did want to act against Cailan ( if Cailan proved too big of a fool ) and if he had done so then he would be a traitor. BUT retreating his troops from a battle where he did not believe victory was possible ( Gaider's words on this forum ), where he asked Cailan to not enter the battle for it could go ill...isn't treason. Unless I am mistaken, Gaider pointed out that Loghain did not want to kill Cailan, he wanted to save him. ( but failed )

Wait Howe is a traitor but Loghain, who assisted Howe and basically covered his butt isn't? I fail to see how this actually works. I understand WHY Loghain retreated, however you stated that rebelling or going against your king is treason, Loghain is directly going against Cailan's orders, whether or not it's for Cailan's own good is semantics, but your own definition Loghain would be classed as a traitor. Also I don't consider leaving Cailan with a insufficient amount of men against a huge darkspawn horde saving him, rather, it's condemning him to his death. 

Loghain should be know that the odds of the king surviving were 1 - 1,000,000. Cailan wasn't a mighty warrior and he was out-numbered, how on earth is he going to live through it? Not even Duncan survived. 

I believe the moment Loghain said "Yes, glory for us all" (at the end of the war meeting), he had already decided what he was going to do. HE was literally plotting treason (by your definition) there and then. He was going AGAINST the king's orders, the king he swore fealty. 

By your definition it doesn't matter that Loghain was doing it to save Fereldan or his men or w/e. He went against the king and is thus a traitor.

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I am just amused at KoP's attempt to work out logic to Loghain's condemnation of the Wardens that's deeper than "I need a scapegoat and never liked you much anwyay."

Why do you think he never liked them? Why do you think he calls you an Orlesian puppeter? That's why.
Because he thinks Wardens are Orlesian agents. 

And as I have explained, this is not a farfetched belief.  

If you believe Loghain's extreme paranoia in general is justified, it's no surprise you think so.  Hell, the whole damn country is full of Orlesian spies in his mind.  Anyone not directly under his thumb is suspect.

To be fair, Loghain is not the first leader to act this way. If your country is as weak as Fereldan is at that time (it's only just come out of Orlesian occupation and is facing a blight), it's natural that those organizations that are independent running in your country can be seen as threats. 

Loghain has NO power over the Wardens, they had the right of conscription and the right to stay in Fereldan as long as they wished. Since he wasn't King (just Regent) and facing Civil War, it's no surprise he would suspect. Also the fact that Antivan and Orlesian Assassins can cross the border anyway, I wouldn't say his paranoia wasn't that misplaced.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...
I believe the moment Loghain said "Yes, glory for us all" (at the end of the war meeting), he had already decided what he was going to do. HE was literally plotting treason (by your definition) there and then.

Actually no, David Gaider said that Loghain did not decide to leave Ostagar until the beacon was lit. Before that, he was planning to join the battle, however relunctantly, while also planing for the possibility of retreating.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

I think there might be even another level to Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens that hasn't been mentioned here yet. Loghain believes that the Wardens *want* this to be a Blight. In the Calling he says "This order has been waning in importance since the last Blight and would do anything to frighten the world into believing they still have relevance." Loghain thinks the Wardens want this to be a Blight as badly as Cailan does and for exactly the same reasons: glory.

Which is again, completely groundless paranoia on his part.  If anyone should realize that Ferelden is in deep ****, it is a post-Ostagar Loghain.  He's the one who got such a close-up view of the darkspawn horde that he had to abandon the king's army, right?  Or are the Grey Wardens in cahoots with the darkspawn, too, and arranged it all? 

Modifié par Addai67, 31 août 2010 - 06:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
 He's the one who got such a close-up view of the darkspawn horde that he had to abandon the king's army, right? 

Save half of Ferelden's army from what probably was a lost battle, more like it.
 
We can discuss this all over again and again and again.

[MortalEngines]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
I believe the moment Loghain said "Yes, glory for us all" (at the end of the war meeting), he had already decided what he was going to do. HE was literally plotting treason (by your definition) there and then.

Actually no, David Gaider said that Loghain did not decide to leave Ostagar until the beacon was lit. Before that, he was planning to join the battle, however relunctantly, while also planing for the possibility of retreating.

Well that's my point, he was planning it by that point (toying with the idea if you will). But DANG, where is everyone getting these Gaider quotes from? I need to see them because people keep referencing and not sourcing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...
Well that's my point, he was planning it by that point (toying with the idea if you will). But DANG, where is everyone getting these Gaider quotes from? I need to see them because people keep referencing and not sourcing.

From the old complete Loghain defense thread: http://social.biowar...47/index/583297
It's big, not sure if you have the patience to scroll through it and find Gaider's posts.

Aaah, memories. One of the best threads I participated in.  

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I think there might be even another level to Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens that hasn't been mentioned here yet. Loghain believes that the Wardens *want* this to be a Blight. In the Calling he says "This order has been waning in importance since the last Blight and would do anything to frighten the world into believing they still have relevance." Loghain thinks the Wardens want this to be a Blight as badly as Cailan does and for exactly the same reasons: glory.

Which is again, completely groundless paranoia on his part.  If anyone should realize that Ferelden is in deep ****, it is a post-Ostagar Loghain.  He's the one who got such a close-up view of the darkspawn horde that he had to abandon the king's army, right?  Or are the Grey Wardens in cahoots with the darkspawn, too, and arranged it all? 

Er, no. It is mistaken, but it isn't groundless before Ostagar (and even for some time afterwards: the only definative proof of a Blight, after all, is the ArchDemon. Which wasn't at Ostagar.).

It would be groundless if the Wardens had no motive to ever do such a thing, and had no history of acting in political self-interest. Neither of those apply.