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[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Why is Shepard on that list? Dull as rocks.

Heeeeeeeeeeeey! Fem-Shep is awesome! C'mon, it's Jennifer Hale!! And she gets to romance Thane. I mean...

*Melts* Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaane! :wub:

Urghh.  I'm not really qualified since I haven't played much, but Mass Effect videos on YouTube put me in stupor.  Except for the romance ones which are completely cringe-worthy.  And I could not take femShep's butch voice.

Ah, the Jennifer Hale fan within me wants to protest! :innocent:

Fem Shep & Thane romance:

www.youtube.com/watch

What do I like besides the heartbreaking VO...? They actually EMOTE. There are tears....those expressive eyes. *Sighs*

[Sarah1281]

Zjarcal wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Getting Loghain to do Alistair's 'thanks for saving the Arl's family' speech made me wish I played on the PC (among other reasons...)

:lol:

Getting the pissed version of that speech might also be worth of capturing.

Especially if you have high enough cunning and can get Loghain to admit he really just doesn't want Eamon to be mad at him.

[Persephone]

Sarah1281 wrote...

CalJones wrote...

I hate watching the Loghain death scene, it's brutal. Ugh. I had to do that when I was going for my warden commander achievement and it made me hate the character I'd made to the extent I was glad the cow didn't get a happy ending. I deleted her anyway.

I've killed Loghain twice. Once my first game for Queen Cousland purposes and then the second time for Warden-Commander/what's it like if Alistiar isn't pissed at you at the coronation purposes (saved right before the DR). The second time wasn't so bad, especially as it wasn't canon for that character, but the first time...I mean, it's one thing if I'm going to kill him but killing him and deposing the daughter he did all of this partly to protect? It was horrible.

I hear ya. That scene just utterly sickens me. I do not see how anyone could ENJOY seeing it (Yet many admit that they do) . Much as esp. unhardened Alistair's reactions still move me, I am afraid I'll end up losing him every time. And the more I do it, the more his "I had these dreams....they do not matter now." line makes me headdesk instead of misty eyed. I need a Paragon Interrupt right there!!!

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...
I hear ya. That scene just utterly sickens me. I do not see how anyone could ENJOY seeing it (Yet many admit that they do) . Much as esp. unhardened Alistair's reactions still move me, I am afraid I'll end up losing him every time. And the more I do it, the more his "I had these dreams....they do not matter now." line makes me headdesk instead of misty eyed. I need a Paragon Interrupt right there!!!

But see, that is my reaction to Loghain's "pigtails" line, which I know you find very moving.  Whereas I find Alistair's line there heartbreaking.

[phaonica]

Persephone wrote...

What do I like besides the heartbreaking VO...? They actually EMOTE. There are tears....those expressive eyes. *Sighs*

I find that that's okay for characters that aren't 'mine', like Shepard is (I assume, because I haven't played ME). But if you have too much emoting going on in DAO, you have situations like in RtO, where people complain "My character wouldn't emote like that." 

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I hear ya. That scene just utterly sickens me. I do not see how anyone could ENJOY seeing it (Yet many admit that they do) . Much as esp. unhardened Alistair's reactions still move me, I am afraid I'll end up losing him every time. And the more I do it, the more his "I had these dreams....they do not matter now." line makes me headdesk instead of misty eyed. I need a Paragon Interrupt right there!!!

But see, that is my reaction to Loghain's "pigtails" line, which I know you find very moving.  Whereas I find Alistair's line there heartbreaking.

I think both of them are being melodramatic. But I think that's the point, to try to get your emotions to mess with your judgment. Works better when it's more subtle than Loghain's pigtails line, imo.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

Persephone wrote...

What do I like besides the heartbreaking VO...? They actually EMOTE. There are tears....those expressive eyes. *Sighs*

I find that that's okay for characters that aren't 'mine', like Shepard is (I assume, because I haven't played ME). But if you have too much emoting going on in DAO, you have situations like in RtO, where people complain "My character wouldn't emote like that." 

Yep, that's always a problem.

But tears for NPCs and companions would have been great. As long as it's not too much, that would get annoying.

[Zjarcal]

I don't mind emotions on my PC so long as they make sense. For example, when you choose to attack the Dalish, your PC has a determined angry look on their face. It makes sense since you're the one who suggested killing the Dalish. The same goes when you kill the merchant in Lothering.

If upon meeting Cailan's body there had been some dialogue choices for your PC, and one of them was something like "poor Cailan", then I wouldn't have minded the sad face (assuming my PC chooses that line of course). There could also have been a "scoff" line that leads to an apathetic look.

I don't think it's a problem to emote PCs, as long as they take into account what the PC just said or did and emote accordingly.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:13 .

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I hear ya. That scene just utterly sickens me. I do not see how anyone could ENJOY seeing it (Yet many admit that they do) . Much as esp. unhardened Alistair's reactions still move me, I am afraid I'll end up losing him every time. And the more I do it, the more his "I had these dreams....they do not matter now." line makes me headdesk instead of misty eyed. I need a Paragon Interrupt right there!!!

But see, that is my reaction to Loghain's "pigtails" line, which I know you find very moving.  Whereas I find Alistair's line there heartbreaking.

I think both of them are being melodramatic. But I think that's the point, to try to get your emotions to mess with your judgment. Works better when it's more subtle than Loghain's pigtails line, imo.

I didn't think that was subtle at all, though.    It's also strange.  Never, ever does he patronize Anora like that.  His responses about her are surprisingly cold (I know he does actually love her).  Like when you're talking to him about taking the final blow and ask "what about Anora?" he says "she was always a practical child, she'll turn it around to her political advantage."  I would have been more moved if he had said something like "I'm sorry for everything" to her.  Something where they're actually talking to each other rather than, what it seems like to me, the writter turning to the player and saying and now you should feel bad about what you're doing with a big foghorn.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...
Ah, the Jennifer Hale fan within me wants to protest! :innocent:

Fem Shep & Thane romance:

www.youtube.com/watch

What do I like besides the heartbreaking VO...? They actually EMOTE. There are tears....those expressive eyes. *Sighs*

I'll have to listen to that at home.  I really, really want to like ME.  It's not like there are a plethora of good PC roleplaying games out there.  I keep thinking I can make myself like it, but I've had no more success than I have trying to make myself like the Modern Warfare game I bought.  I was thinking over Christmas vacation I might try again, if I can find where we ditched it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I didn't think that was subtle at all, though.    It's also strange.  Never, ever does he patronize Anora like that.  His responses about her are surprisingly cold (I know he does actually love her).  Like when you're talking to him about taking the final blow and ask "what about Anora?" he says "she was always a practical child, she'll turn it around to her political advantage."

I don't see the problem in a father patronizing his daughter before he dies, even when he never did that before (and we do see him somewhat regretful that he isn't that close to her. Maybe he thought he should say something like htis before dying).

And his line before the US was to you, not Anora. Obviously he is not going  to patronise her when she isn't there.

[phaonica]

Zjarcal wrote...

I don't mind emotions on my PC so long as they make sense. For example, when you choose to attack the Dalish, your PC has a determined angry look on their face. It makes sense since you're the one who suggested killing the Dalish. The same goes when you kill the merchant in Lothering.

If upon meeting Cailan's body there had been some dialogue choices for your PC, and one of them was something like "poor Cailan", then I wouldn't have minded the sad face (assuming my PC chooses that line of course). There could also have been a "scoff" line that leads to an apathetic look.

I don't think it's a problem to emote PCs, as long as they take into account what the PC just said or did and emote accordingly.

That is true, I agree. Other than them needing a separate cutscene for the separate expressions, I'm not sure why they wouldn't go ahead and do that. Though sometimes the way NPCs respond to my dialog choices, I'm sometimes like "I didn't really mean it like that, but whatever," so the devs are bound to misinterpret the emotion meant to carry across here and there, too. Oh well.

[Zjarcal]

phaonica wrote...
Though sometimes the way NPCs respond to my dialog choices, I'm sometimes like "I didn't really mean it like that, but whatever," so the devs are bound to misinterpret the emotion meant to carry across here and there, too. Oh well.

This is another problem that bugs me. To be fair it's impossible to determine all the possible emotions one wants to convey in a dialog choice, but it's annoying nonetheless. So inevitably they would also do it for the PC if they implemented what I said. Oh well...

About Loghain's "pigtails" line, I still don't see what's so wrong with it. If it's the fact that Loghain says it to the PC and not Anora, well I could understand why one would think the line was meant to change the players mind (although at that point you can't change your decision). Other than that, I really don't find it strange of Loghain to say that just as he's about to die.

For the record, I don't find anything wrong with Alistair's "I had this dreams" line either.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't see the problem in a father patronizing his daughter before he dies, even when he never did that before (and we do see him somewhat regretful that he isn't that close to her. Maybe he thought he should say something like htis before dying).

And his line before the US was to you, not Anora. Obviously he is not going  to patronise her when she isn't there.

Yes that's what I meant.  I guess it could just be that it's his last moments and that is the memory that comes to his mind so he says it.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

I didn't think that was subtle at all, though.   

No, I didn't either, I was downplaying.

  rather than, what it seems like to me, the writter turning to the player and saying and now you should feel bad about what you're doing with a big foghorn.

I felt the same way. I don't know why that line is so immersion-breaking for me. I don't find it to be OOC, really, and it seems like a justifiable line, given the circumstances, but it just feels to me like a last-ditch effort by the writers to make the player feel bad.

[Costin_Razvan]

I did not say SC1 was better than SC2.

I said the writing, story and characters of SC1 are better, imo and I put a great emphasis on story.



But in terms of gameplay, I think SC2 is much much better and I am looking forward to the Legacy of the Void campaign.

And what I said is that I don't judge each element individually but the game as a whole.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
And what I said is that I don't judge each element individually but the game as a whole.

I know.
My initial post however to Giggle, was discussing the writing and characters specifically, not the game as a whole.
No need to get defensive over SC2, I like it as much as you do.



Aaanyways, Loghain.
I was thinking about the circle Tower and all that and I was wondering. What exactly was the arrangement between Uldred and Loghain?
Did Loghain promise Uldred complete mage freedom? Or some reforms that he would set in place?

And if he did promise them freedom, do you think he would keep his promise once the Chantry says NO quite assertively? (Something that they will inevitable do, according to DG). Or would he turn on them, just to avoid giving Orlais a pretext to invade? 

I understand that desperate times call for desperate measures and I don't oppose this alliance perse considering the context. But if Loghain was seriously contemplating complete mage freedom after the war, and that he was willing to fight the Chantry and thus probably Orlais to keep his promise, then I would raise an eyebrow. 

It isn't completely unfeasible for him to wage a defensive war against Orlais and maybe force negotiations if he fares well (he has mages at his side). But that's not what  I would consider a bright future for the country and I am sure Anora wouldn't either.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:02 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
And what I said is that I don't judge each element individually but the game as a whole.

I know.
My initial post however to Giggle, was discussing the writing and characters specifically, not the game as a whole.
No need to get defensive over SC2, I like it as much as you do.



Aaanyways, Loghain.
I was thinking about the circle Tower and all that and I was wondering. What exactly was the arrangement between Uldred and Loghain?
Did Loghain promise Uldred complete mage freedom? Or some reforms that he would set in place?

And if he did promise them freedom, do you think he would keep his promise once the Chantry says NO quite assertively? (Something that they will inevitable do, according to DG). Or would he turn on them, just to avoid giving Orlais a pretext to invade? 

I understand that desperate times call for desperate measures and I don't oppose this alliance perse considering the context. But if Loghain was seriously contemplating complete mage freedom after the war, and that he was willing to fight the Chantry and thus probably Orlais to keep his promise, then I would raise an eyebrow. 

It isn't completely unfeasible for him to wage a defensive war against Orlais and maybe force negotiations if he fares well (he has mages at his side). But that's not what  I would consider a bright future for the country and I am sure Anora wouldn't either.  

Loghain is not a man to make empty promises, nor does he have the capacity for such double dealing, ect.

Thus, if he did promise the Circle would be free of Chantry oversight, and answer only to the crown, then methinks Loggy would have done just that, Orlais could kiss his hairy Ferelden ass.

We know that Loghain was trying to get some agreement/aliance with the dwarves in the game, that probably fit into his grand scheme, perhaps assistance in dealing with a potential invasion as well. With the possibility of having the Mages and dwarves in his corner, as well as belief in his own legend, he probably thought that was enough.

Loghain is no politican, which is why I think he did. And Uldred was eager and impatient, something I don't think he would have been had only reforms been proposed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I foresee another debate on the prospect of dwarves fighting a surface war that means nothing to them that I find very improbable. Suffice to say that I do not think Loghain was thinking that the dwarves would assist him in a war against Orlais, it means nothing to them.

I personally could see Loghain backstabbing the mages tbh. He wouldn't be happy with it, he might even hesitate. But if under extreme pressure, I think he might.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I foresee another debate on the prospect of dwarves fighting a surface war that means nothing to them that I find very improbable. Suffice to say that I do not think Loghain was thinking that the dwarves would assist him in a war against Orlais, it means nothing to them.
I personally could see Loghain backstabbing the mages tbh. He wouldn't be happy with it, he might even hesitate. But if under extreme pressure, I think he might.

I don't. We aren't talking about reality per se, as happens in the game, but Loghain's own detatchment from common sense and sound descisions.

Loghain, to me, is clearly a bit out of his skull in game with all the major blunders and ham-fisted attempts to bring order and unity. He's a terrible politician, and terrible at persuading people or BSing. I think he had plans on doing that, freeing the mages, and not really caring what the Chantry thought. I even think Loghain, while having belief in most Chantry teachings and the maker, is not terribly fond of the Chantry itself, especially given its headquarters in orlais. I base this on what I read in the Stolen Throne.

So yeah, I think that Loghain probably believed he could get the dwarves to fight Orlais with him. He did after all get the Legion of the Dead to help out in Stolen Throne, and like I said, part of him is consumed by his own legend. Thus, his descisions and plans are not entirely rational or based in reality at this point.

The reality is probably, the dwarves wouldn't care about surface wars, and would probably tell Loghain to shove it. As far as pissing off orlais, Loghain is already convinced that there is some Orlesian plan to invade anyway, so the Chantry's concerns are moot at that point.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
As far as pissing off orlais, Loghain is already convinced that there is some Orlesian plan to invade anyway, so the Chantry's concerns are moot at that point.

Yea true.
Just wondering what he might have done had he won, which wouldn't have happened.

Yea, that wasn't a pertinente question on my part. If he thought Orlais was going to invade, then freeing the mages would be the reasonable thing to do.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Well, pretending that the Blight was somehow stopped, I'd imagine he would have had the mages answerable directly to the crown. I also see a possibility of, either during or after his lifetime, of another schizm/split in the Chantry, with a seperate Ferelden Chantry independent of the orlesian one, somewhat in the style of Henry VIII's split from the Catholic Church and the formation of The Church of England. If henry could do it over divorce, Loghain would do it over greater independance, culturally and religously, from Orlais.

[phaonica]

If Orlais was invading, I could see him keeping his promise to the mages, but I can't see him backing the mages to the point of risking a Ferelden vs Chantry/Orlais war. I don't think he'd provoke Orlais to keep a promise to the mages. But for all his 'mistakes', I don't see Loghain's actions as 'blundering', either. imo

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eh, Henry VIII was helped by the political circumstances both within and outside of England, in addition to the reformation movement that was already there. Not sure the same applies to Ferelden and Thedas at that period. But yea, maybe Loghain was thinking about a split.

I personally don't think he was thinking about the long term that much.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

If Orlais was invading, I could see him keeping his promise to the mages, but I can't see him backing the mages to the point of risking a Ferelden vs Chantry/Orlais war. I don't think he'd provoke Orlais to keep a promise to the mages. But for all his 'mistakes', I don't see Loghain's actions as 'blundering', either. imo

That's what I personally think, yes.
I did not percieve Loghain as a blundering idiot. And I don't see him risking war just for mages.
He might do so if the Chantry says they are going to send Orlesian mages to supervise the Tower, or something like that, considering his personal experience with Orlesian enchanters. But other than that, I am not sure he would keep his promise.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:24 .