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[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

And there are political circumstances outside of Derelden that could be used to Loghain's advantage. I also see hints, though the game lore does not expand upon this, of various heretical beliefs and sects outside of the Chantry and accepted dogma, that could be exploited. Orlais being the central religious place of the non-Imperial Chantry must have created political friction elsewhere, given the amount of influence that would grant. Though DA:O doesn't really go into this, perhaps we might see something of it in DA2, since we will be moving outside of Ferelden, and coming into contact with outher Thedans.



I don't think it was Loghain's plan, long term or otherwise, I think that it's a possibility that could have been inevitable, maybe even after Loghain was dead.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Those various sects involve dragon worship. Not sure that's what Loghain would want, or if that would help him at all. For now, there seems to be only two variations of the Chantry, the Orlesian one and the Imperial one that is very specific to Tevinter itself and its history / culture that I do not think could be duplicated in Ferelden.

The events of DA2 might cause the collapse or weakening of the Chantry though, if the rumors are correct, so there could be an opportunity for change at that point.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Those various sects involve dragon worship. Not sure that's what Loghain would want, or if that would help him at all. For now, there seems to be only two variations of the Chantry, the Orlesian one and the Imperial one that is very specific to Tevinter itself and its history / culture that I do not think could be duplicated in Ferelden.
The events of DA2 might cause the collapse or weakening of the Chantry though, if the rumors are correct, so there could be an opportunity for change at that point.

I'm not talking about the inbred dragon worshiping loonies you run into.

Remember the book you find in the Shaperate that was a gift for Wynne. The one that suggested Andraste was a powerful mage, and it had been partly burned. Things like that...Heresies and hertical sects, must exist in many forms throught Thedas. Medieval Christian Europe had Cathars and Gnostics before the Reformation, I don't see why such sects wouldn't exist in Thedas.

And how the spread of such sects could be used as a sort of political weapon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I thought that book originate from Tevinter? Not sure.

Small heretical sects were of minor importance and impact. The Reformation has a much larger impact.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I thought that book originate from Tevinter? Not sure.
Small heretical sects were of minor importance and impact. The Reformation has a much larger impact.

The Reformated started with a few heretics spreading some heretical ideas, and challenging the dogma of the current established religion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

But I see no such sects in Ferelden proper, despite Orlesian occupation and the Chantry backing it up. So an abrupt break from the Chantry is improbable in the near future, and I don't see the peopel accepting it readily.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Doesn't mean it can't spread in a relatively short time, especially if Ferelden courts and encourages the migration of such sects.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Ah, the Jennifer Hale fan within me wants to protest! :innocent:

Fem Shep & Thane romance:

www.youtube.com/watch

What do I like besides the heartbreaking VO...? They actually EMOTE. There are tears....those expressive eyes. *Sighs*

This doesn't help, I'm afraid.  LOL  Don't know what it is about ME and especially the romance stuff that makes my eyes glaze over.

Finished the game with Ellie's doppelganger.  She asked to be Teyrna of Gwaren, of course.    Man, is Alistair... testy.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I hear ya. That scene just utterly sickens me. I do not see how anyone could ENJOY seeing it (Yet many admit that they do) . Much as esp. unhardened Alistair's reactions still move me, I am afraid I'll end up losing him every time. And the more I do it, the more his "I had these dreams....they do not matter now." line makes me headdesk instead of misty eyed. I need a Paragon Interrupt right there!!!

But see, that is my reaction to Loghain's "pigtails" line, which I know you find very moving.  Whereas I find Alistair's line there heartbreaking.

With the difference that Loghain is not talking to my Warden there but to his daughter. And while Loghain's words to comfort his child may or may not make sense, when in comes to my Wardens, Alistair completely misunderstands them by taking a pragmatic decision personally. My decision had nothing to do with him or our relationship. Nor did my refusal to sate his bloodlust.

[Addai]

Loghain is talking to someone he loves, Alistair is talking to someone he loves/ loved/ thought loved him and it is a betrayal to him no matter how you came to the decision. It may not be moving to you, but to him it's his lover betraying him in public and cutting off all possibility of a future.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Loghain is talking to someone he loves, Alistair is talking to someone he loves/ loved/ thought loved him and it is a betrayal to him no matter how you came to the decision. It may not be moving to you, but to him it's his lover betraying him in public and cutting off all possibility of a future.

Yep, to him. Not to me. And that's why I want a Paragon interrupt right there.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont see it as the Warden cutting off their future.

The warden is no doubt opening the door, but they dont push Alistair out it.



He is the one who runs out the door screaming/crying when Loghain is spared.

He is the one who abandons the blight, even when the warden can ask him to stay.



While I would be mad in that scene, and I can understand why he does what he does, its his choice to leave.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont see it as the Warden cutting off their future.
The warden is no doubt opening the door, but they dont push Alistair out it.

I'm talking about how he sees it.

[CalJones]

Which is fair enough, but it suscks that there is no dialogue where you can adequately explain your decision. Not that it would make him any less angry, but it might wake him up a bit.

[Addai]

I don't think he wants to be woken up. I could see Alistair hanging on to that for the rest of his life. :S

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think he wants to be woken up. I could see Alistair hanging on to that for the rest of his life. :S

I hope DA2 will offer us a way to....support him so he may find his way again. One can only hope.

[Zjarcal]

It would be weird though, having Hawke offer support. I'd really love it if upon meeting him he starts ripping into my warden while Hawke goes "huh?".

[Costin_Razvan]

That's what I personally think, yes.
I did not percieve Loghain as a blundering idiot. And I don't see him risking war just for mages.
He might do so if the Chantry says they are going to send Orlesian mages to supervise the Tower, or something like that, considering his personal experience with Orlesian enchanters. But other than that, I am not sure he would keep his promise.

You forget that Loghain keeps his promises or at least tries to. I do not see him "freeing" the mages in the sense of complete freedoms but rather what Anora/Alistair do at the end of Origins.

Obviously this would cause tension and maybe an outright war, but if you think Loghain is the kind of person who just backs down out of fear of military might then you got the wrong person.

This doesn't help, I'm afraid.  LOL  Don't know what it is about ME and especially the romance stuff that makes my eyes glaze over.

Check this out then. www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:40 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Obviously this would cause tension and maybe an outright war, but if you think Loghain is the kind of person who just backs down out of fear of military might then you got the wrong person.

Loghain is the kind of person who would do anything to protect his homeland, including breaking a promise to avoid giving Orlais a reason to invade if it was made clear to him that they would if he doesn't back down. If he seriously would subjugate his people to an unnecessary invasion simply because breaking a promise hurts his feelings, then I would agree with Skadi that he is a blundering idiot. But I don't thik that is the case, he did things that hurt his feelings much more than this to try and protect Ferelden.

EDIT: considering how it was him and Maric who orchastrated the murder of 3 banns in a chantry where they were supposed to talk, can be seen as not only breaking a promise, but also defiling the sanctity of a place of worship. I don't see where you got the idea that Loghain would never, under any circumstance, break a promise. He's done a lot more than simply that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Unless he believed he could defeat such an invasion. You do not believe it, I do and calling someone an "idiot" for believing it is quite uncalled for. The situation between Orlais and Fereldan can only result in war.

considering how it was him and Maric who orchastrated the murder of 3 banns in a chantry where they were supposed to talk, can be seen as not only breaking a promise, but also defiling the sanctity of a place of worship. I don't see where you got the idea that Loghain would never, under any circumstance, break a promise. He's done a lot more than simply that. 

He did not promise anything then, by promise I think of things like the one he made to Maric to serve Fereldan and he gave up a LOT to keep that promise, and he also sacrificed half his army to try and save Cailan when it would been far better to kill the fool.

You don't care about honor in any sense, and neither does Loghain ( I think to a certain degree ), but I cannot see him as a person who would back down on his word just for the sake convenience.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
He did not promise anything then, by promise I think of things like the one he made to Maric to serve Fereldan and he gave up a LOT to keep that promise, and he also sacrificed half his army to try and save Cailan.

Including breaking a small promise to fullfill the greater one.
And he thought Ostagar could still be winnable until the battle happened, otherwise he wouldn't have stayed and he would have delt with Cailan more swiftly, had he thought otherwise. This has little to do with keeping a promise, rather he had a soft spot for Cailan and thought the fool can be brought to see reason, in addition to him thinking before the battle that it could be won.

If he really sacrificed half his army JUST to save Cailan, then I would have probably had him executed. 

Costin_Razvan wrote...
You don't care about honor in any sense, and neither does Loghain ( I think to a certain degree ), but I cannot see him as a person who would back down on his word just for convenience.

I do care about honor, as long as it doesn't override common sense.
I would definitely see him breaking a promise for political necessity. If he doesn't, then my convinction that he should be kept out of politics is strengthened. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:40 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I do care about honor, as long as it doesn't override common sense.

Common sense eh? So fighting Orlais in a war overrides common sense. I get it that you feel that Orlais would utterly crush Fereldan in a war and that Fereldan would not stand a chance but just because YOU believe that does not make it true.

 If he really sacrificed half his army JUST to save Cailan, then I would have probably had him executed.   

It was not the only reason but it most certainly was one of the largest ( if not the largest ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Common sense eh? So fighting Orlais in a war overrides common sense.

After the country has been devastated by the Blight, probably losing many men had he miraculously won and is on the verge of economic collapse, yes.
For 30 years Loghain seemingly did not do anything to aggresse Orlais, nor does he seem obsessed with starting a war with it, why would he now.

But anyways, I see where this is going and I'd rather avoid it.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
It was not the only reason but it most certainly was one of the largest ( if not the largest ).

I thought that while it might have influenced his decision, it was no near near desicive. 
If Loghain thought victory was unnattainable before the battle started, and went along with it just to save Cailan? I have to say my respect would go down a lot.

I still contend that it was incompetent of him to do nothing about Cailan prior the battle, but I don't think he was foolish enough to think that the battle was not winnable at all and still went along with it.
His feelings for Cailan come into play when he believes that he can be brought to see reason. 

Anyways, gtg to university. Cheers.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:53 .

[Costin_Razvan]

After the country has been devastated by the Blight, probably losing many men had he miraculously won and is on the verge of economic collapse, yes.
For 30 years Loghain seemingly did not do anything to aggresse Orlais, nor does he seem obsessed with starting a war with it, why would he now.

One thing is for him to not start a war with Orlais for those 30 years ( though bear in mind that peace was only declared after Celene took the throne, so it's not like it really stopped until then ), another completely different matter is for him to refuse to allow Orlais ( pardon the Chantry ) to decide Fereldan's internal policy regarding mages and thus leading into a war.

Tell me, what would you do if Celene threatened you with war unless you stopped building your navy for instance?

 I still contend that it was incompetent of him to do nothing about Cailan prior the battle, but I don't think he was foolish enough to think that the battle was not winnable at all and still went along with it.  

Not completely, no. But he did believe there was a strong chance that they would get massacred, or that's how I see it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 novembre 2010 - 01:04 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I still think that Loghain was not dealing with a full deck, which would explain alot of his bizarre and normally OOC behavior in Origins. One does not have to be a drooling lunatic to be non compus mentus, and there are many non-organic situational triggers than can cause temporary insanity: personal stress, sleep depravation (hence Loggy's infamous undead look) pressure, overwork, ect.



Thus, I think in Loggy's head for most of the game, there is some sort of grand and imminent Orlesian plot to take over Ferelden, perhaps triggered by suspicion and rumors surrounding the mysterious Cailan/Celene subplot. There are alot of possible triggers and reasons for his behavior, building up since Maric's death and Cailan's coronation.



I also believe that at some point, Loghain realized the foolishness of his descisions and the idocy of his actions, but was either too stubborn or proud to admit it and reverse course, and continued his plans, until the Warden comes along and beats some sense and clarity into his head.



In game, I see Loghain as a man who is under alot of strain, not only from current situations and events, but from the past. The people he cared most for in life are all dead, the son of his best friend and beloved is a complete moron and an embarassment to his esteemed parents, and said moron is now ruling his beloved Ferelden poorly, possibly even dangerously. He promised to take care of Ferelden and put the country above all else, yet Cailan is his best friend's son.



I;'ve seen it happen, perfectly normal, grounded people have nervous breakdowns and start behaving in bizarre ways, or making some seriously weird descisions and plans.