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[Esbatty]

Addai67 wrote...

Something has been bothering me and I thought I'd throw it out for y'uns' thoughts.

Rowan was pretty upset about Loghain, judging from the TST epilogue.  So was Loghain, for that matter, since he didn't go to Denerim at all during the first few years of Maric's reign.  So why did they all agree to betroth Cailan and Anora??

Their children were naturally being groomed for it. The Daughter of the Hero of River Dane and the son Maric the Saviour, it should've been pure win. Then Fail somehow got in there. I still don't agree with Maric's decision of letting little Cailan be aware of his Father's other loves. "He needs to know everything." F*** that noise, the damn kid is humping everything but Anora. Grr.

I just don't like that Anora hasn't really done anything wrong. It seems the only problem was that she was childhood friends and betrothed to Cailan without consulting the neither infant nor toddler at the time of the proposal. Yes I am well aware she is politically minded but she isn't out to screw over Ferelden she does things to keep herself in power to do good for the Kingdom to good for the People. I mean she was groomed for it. She is clearly acknowledged by everyone as the "Brains" of the royal coupling during the brief marriage.

Nevertheless she is human and thus might say or do things that aren't entirely "correct" but still, she is a good person. I know I'm always "Anora is HOTT, I'd hit that like the fist of an angry old god" but there is nothing truly wrong or off about her. She is what she is, no apologies.

The first time I heard Loghain quiet Anora over the idea of his execution after the duel... "Daughters are forever in pigtails and skinned knees", the scowly bastard had a heart the entire time. (This was before I read the novels, that icy blue eyed young rogue).

[Addai]

But WHY were they grooming them? Why make Anora into Little Queen? I can see why Cailan was in the noose. There was no reason to groom Anora, though. Shouldn't Loghain have had more sense? Shouldn't Maric and Rowan have known better than to force a betrothal on them like they were forced?

Modifié par Addai67, 22 novembre 2010 - 04:21 .

[Esbatty]

Addai67 wrote...

But WHY were they grooming them? Why make Anora into Little Queen? I can see why Cailan was in the noose. There was no reason to groom Anora, though. Shouldn't Loghain have had more sense? Shouldn't Maric and Rowan have known better than to force a betrothal on them like they were forced?

The Prime Directive says we are not allowed to meddle in other cultures no matter how crazy or insane their customs may be. Now come Number 2, we must go to the Alistair thread and squee as no one has squee'd before.

...

Now for actual speculation, it would help reinforce the Mac Tir line as nobility once it blended with the Theirin bloodline. And again, Maric and Rowan were promised to each other because thats how Queen Moira and  Arl Rendorn made their deal when Moira allowed herself to be captured by Rendorn when attempting to convince him to side with her in the Rebellion.

So it has cultural and political precedent, and besides, they were fricken young... Rowan, Maric, and Loghain. All they had was older folks who fought under then or beside them plus historical precedent to follow.

[CalJones]

Addai67 wrote...

Also I broke my own rule about not reading Loghain fanfiction, but couldn't resist reading this little one on his childhood.  It's really good.

Now I just need to go write myself.  Grr.

That is nice. I didn't get to read it until now as the site seemed to be down last night (UK time) but thanks for the link.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That's a new one I think

[Giggles_Manically]

KoP's pic reminds me of another thing that bugs me:

People claim that Loghain is outright racist, and if you cant see it you are crazy.



There is nothing to indicate that like at all though, which really makes me wonder how they get to that end. Howe is racist (City Elf when meeting him), but Loghain, I just dont see it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

He of course isn't. But some people just look at the surface of things.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He of course isn't. But some people just look at the surface of things.

That's one reason I love Bioware games, their writing and NPC's all have such depth and complexity to them that you can analyze them, and think about them long after you stop playing.

[Persephone]

Well, I did it. Played around with the MOR files and TADAAAAAAAAA!

[Addai]

Esbatty wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But WHY were they grooming them? Why make Anora into Little Queen? I can see why Cailan was in the noose. There was no reason to groom Anora, though. Shouldn't Loghain have had more sense? Shouldn't Maric and Rowan have known better than to force a betrothal on them like they were forced?

The Prime Directive says we are not allowed to meddle in other cultures no matter how crazy or insane their customs may be. Now come Number 2, we must go to the Alistair thread and squee as no one has squee'd before.

Yes, one is only ever allowed to squee for Alistair.  This is well known!

Now for actual speculation, it would help reinforce the Mac Tir line as nobility once it blended with the Theirin bloodline. And again, Maric and Rowan were promised to each other because thats how Queen Moira and  Arl Rendorn made their deal when Moira allowed herself to be captured by Rendorn when attempting to convince him to side with her in the Rebellion.

So it has cultural and political precedent, and besides, they were fricken young... Rowan, Maric, and Loghain. All they had was older folks who fought under then or beside them plus historical precedent to follow.

Moira and Rendorn's deal makes sense.  The kingdom is fractured, and since an alliance that starts out in a dungeon is bound to be shaky, they need something concrete to build it on.  But Ferelden after that is united again and there are plenty of marriage options for both Cailan and Anora without limiting them to each other from the get go.

[CalJones]

Loghain looks wrong in noble clothing!



Anyway, no, he's not racist - he has plenty of history fighting with elves and dwarves in TSR and he's friendly to wardens of all races at Ostagar. He's just ruthlessly pragmatic.

[Persephone]

CalJones wrote...

Loghain looks wrong in noble clothing!

Anyway, no, he's not racist - he has plenty of history fighting with elves and dwarves in TSR and he's friendly to wardens of all races at Ostagar. He's just ruthlessly pragmatic.

I know, he was still wearing this to prevent clipping during a kiss scene. :innocent:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Moira and Rendorn's deal makes sense.  The kingdom is fractured, and since an alliance that starts out in a dungeon is bound to be shaky, they need something concrete to build it on.  But Ferelden after that is united again and there are plenty of marriage options for both Cailan and Anora without limiting them to each other from the get go.

Maybe it's to strengthen the Mac Tirian line. They are after all "nouveau nobles". 
Or maybe Maric and Loghain thought it would be really cool if their kids marry.

A Cousland female being allowed to love whoever she wants was potrayed as a bit exceptional, IIRC?
I think that noble houses predominantly arrange marriages, for political purposes. Anora marrying Cailan is definitely for the benefit of the Mac Tirs.

[Addai]

I guess by the time of Cailan's succession it's moot, since it's obvious that Cailan needs Anora as much as she needs him.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

I guess by the time of Cailan's succession it's moot, since it's obvious that Cailan needs Anora as much as she needs him.

She just needs his name.

I would be surprised if Anora actually loved Cailan. She says she did, but it sounds to me like she is lying, just to earn your sympathy and trust. Because I really can't see Anora actually falling in love with such a moron.
It's convenient for her, but love worthy? I really don't think so.

Add the fact that she seemingly wants to marry a man that ranks as high as her father. Does Cailan really sound like the kind of man that would be equal to Loghain in Anora's mind?

[nos_astra]

Wholeheartedly agree with KoP. Cailan is not the kind of man Anora would fall for.

[Addai]

"His name" is a big deal. Anora would not have gotten near the throne without it. I never said anything about them falling for each other??  They need each other politically.   I agree she is being manipulative throughout that whole conversation with the Warden, so I take it all with a grain of salt.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

"His name" is a big deal. Anora would not have gotten near the throne without it. I never said anything about them falling for each other?? I agree she is being manipulative throughout that whole conversation with the Warden, so I take it all with a grain of salt.

Yes, it's a big deal, but Cailan doesn't take any credit for it. He didn't earn it or develop it.
So, Anora just needs Cailan's name, not Cailan himself as a person.
That's what I meant.

And the love thing was an aside, not directed at you.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

"His name" is a big deal. Anora would not have gotten near the throne without it. I never said anything about them falling for each other??  They need each other politically.   I agree she is being manipulative throughout that whole conversation with the Warden, so I take it all with a grain of salt.

Well, both Loghain and Eamon confirm that Cailan loved Anora very much. And I think she was fond of him, smitten even. But in love? I doubt it.

[Addai]

Do they? I only recall Wynne saying that, and we all know how much she knows.  And I only remember Eamon saying Anora was one step ahead of Cailan.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[nos_astra]

Persephone wrote...
Well, I did it. Played around with the MOR files and TADAAAAAAAAA!

It's probably because I'm so used to those scenes but I really don't see how they work with Loghain. I mean, they are made specifically for clumsy, awkward, sweet, gentle Alistair and Loghain just doesn't fit in there looking a bit shy and embarrassed. It's almost creepy.
I'd expect Loghain to look a lot different every time you remove his armour. He's not 20 anymore. I don't know.

Modifié par klarabella, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Do they? I only recall Wynne saying that, and we all know how much she knows.  And I only remember Eamon saying Anora was one step ahead of Cailan.

Yea, Wynne is just lulzy at times.
I wonder if she actually ever saw Cailan before Ostagar.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Do they? I only recall Wynne saying that, and we all know how much she knows.  And I only remember Eamon saying Anora was one step ahead of Cailan.

Eamon says that Anora had him wrapped around her little finger and Loghain reminisces how Cailan was Anora's only friend as a child. How they'd "adventure" together, supposedly killing ogres. How she'd have him follow her like a puppy on a leash. :happy:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Do they? I only recall Wynne saying that, and we all know how much she knows.  And I only remember Eamon saying Anora was one step ahead of Cailan.

Eamon says that Anora had him wrapped around her little finger and Loghain reminisces how Cailan was Anora's only friend as a child. How they'd "adventure" together, supposedly killing ogres. How she'd have him follow her like a puppy on a leash. :happy:

Made me lol

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Well, I did it. Played around with the MOR files and TADAAAAAAAAA!

It's probably because I'm so used to those scenes but I really don't see how they work with Loghain. I mean, they are made specifically for clumsy, awkward, sweet, gentle Alistair and Loghain just doesn't fit in there looking a bit shy and embarrassed. It's almost creepy.
I'd expect Loghain to look a lot different every time you remove his armour. He's not 20 anymore. I don't know. *shrug*

Understandable, Klarabella. Lemme tell ya, hearing Alistair's voice coming out of Loghain is even more creepy. I'll have better screenshots ready in time. I hope. :happy: