12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Eh, I guess I don't interpret that as that he loved her, especially later on. If we take Anora's words as true, he was cheating on her and we all know that he was planning to dump her.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Do they? I only recall Wynne saying that, and we all know how much she knows.  And I only remember Eamon saying Anora was one step ahead of Cailan.

Eamon says that Anora had him wrapped around her little finger and Loghain reminisces how Cailan was Anora's only friend as a child. How they'd "adventure" together, supposedly killing ogres. How she'd have him follow her like a puppy on a leash. :happy:

Made me lol

:lol::lol:

"Well, that was their explanation for all the broken bottles" (In the wine cellae) (Loghain)

But KOP, that was DARK humor. I LIKE it!:happy:

[KnightofPhoenix]

There's a lot more where that came from

[alschemid]

klarabella wrote...
I mean, they are made specifically for clumsy, awkward, sweet, gentle Alistair and Loghain just doesn't fit in there looking a bit shy and embarrassed.

After playing all day I have to agree that some of those don't fit Loghain at all,sometimes I just wanted to slap Alistair's smile out of his face, but on the other hand grabing him for a kiss was really worth it.



It is just me, or he looks delicious wearing this..

Modifié par alschemid, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Addai]

The scenes don't fit Nathaniel, Anders or Teagan, either, but people still morph Alistair for the screenshots and lulz. *shrug* It's a single-player game, so whatever amuses.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There's a lot more where that came from

:wub::innocent::innocent::wub:

[Persephone]

alschemid wrote...

klarabella wrote...
I mean, they are made specifically for clumsy, awkward, sweet, gentle Alistair and Loghain just doesn't fit in there looking a bit shy and embarrassed.

After playing all day I have to agree that some of those don't fit Loghain at all,sometimes I just wanted to slap Alistair's smile out of his face, but on the other hand grabing him for a kiss was really worth it.

*Snips*
It is just me, or he looks delicious wearing this..

Ah, damn, those are LOVELY. :wub::wub:

[CalJones]

I get the impression that Cailan and Anora were fond of each other, as you'd expect childhood friends to be, but I imagine their relationship to be more like brother and sister than lovers.

[Addai]

Discuss what you think Loghain means by "Peace is just fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons." It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Discuss what you think Loghain means by "Peace is just fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons." It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I took it as to mean that, usually when a powerful country allies with a weaker one with the promise of peace, they usually have an agreement that the weaker one is obligated to send troops to help the stronger one. Something like the Peloponnesian league or the Delian league, where Sparta and Athens respectively demanded that their allies send them troops (Rome did the same as well).

So they ended up fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons.

Now that statement however is too broad and vague. He should have been more precise. But in the context in which this was said, I think by peace he meant the alliance with Orlais.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, Wynne thinks that an end to fighting would have been worth the continued or re-occupation of Ferelden by Orlais and since Orlais is continually fighting, Fereldens would be going off to war regardless so that sacrifice would have been worthless.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, Wynne thinks that an end to fighting would have been worth the continued or re-occupation of Ferelden by Orlais and since Orlais is continually fighting, Fereldens would be going off to war regardless so that sacrifice would have been worthless.

Most likely as cannon fodder.

[Addai]

Right, I guess it does make sense in the context it is said, which is discovering Cailan's correspondence with Celene.

[Ryzaki]

Can anyone tell me what the correspondence actually said?

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Can anyone tell me what the correspondence actually said?

To his Majesty, King Cailan of Ferelden:
My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight. This thing threatens us both, and we must work together to fight it, lest it devour all. Our two nations have not had a happy history, but that is all it is -- history. It is the future that is at stake now. Let us put aside our father's disagreements so that we may secure a future for both our countries.
My Chevaliers stand ready and will accompany the Grey Wardens of Orlais to Ferelden. At your word the might of Orlais will march to reinforce the Ferelden forces.
Sincerely, Empress Celene I
-- "An official letter from Empress Celene I of Orlais to King Cailan of Ferelden."[/i]
Your Majesty,
My men will arrive as soon as possible to bolster your forces. Maker willing, this Blight will be ended before it has begun.
Cailan, I beseech you, as your uncle, not to join the Grey Wardens on the Field. You cannot afford to take this risk. Ferelden cannot afford it. Let me remind you again that you do not have an heir. Your death--and it pains me even to think of it--would plunge Ferelden into chaos.
And yes, perhaps when this is over you will allow me to bring up the subject of your heir. While a son from both the Theirin and Mac Tir lines would unite Ferelden like no other, we must accept that perhaps this can never be. The queen approaches her thirtieth year and her ability to give you a child lessens with each passing month. I submit to you again that it might be time to put Anora aside. We parted harshly the last time I spoke of this, but it has been a full year since then and nothing has changed.
Please, nephew, consider my words, and Andraste's grace be with you.
-- "A letter from Arl Eamon to King Cailan[/i]" Cailan,
The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.


-- "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from Empress Celene to King Cailan[/i]"

Now, it's not one hundred percent clear from these letters that Cailan is planning on dumping Anora for Celene. Loghain reacts like this: 

Loghain: [/b]The cheating bastard!
Wynne: [/b]Watch your mouth, Loghain Mac Tir, unless you have forgotten the company you now keep!
Loghain: [/b]It's not my company I worry about, madam, but my former son-in-law's! Do you see the familiar tone with which the empress writes him, as if my daughter were not already his wife?
Wynne: Cailan loved Anora with every ounce of his heart. It was plain for all to see. The only thing that ever stood between them was you. 
[/b]Loghain: [/b]Are you blind, old woman? The plot is plain as day within this letter! Love or no, Cailan was going to cast my daughter aside and wed himself to that ****, Celene. In a single vow, Orlais would claim all that they could never win by war! And what would Ferelden gain? Our fool of a king could strut about and call himself an emperor.
Wynne: [/b]And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?
Loghain: [/b]Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In-game it's not a 100% clear. Gaider's comments that RtO was supposed to use some of their original idea where Cailan and Celene do marry, makes it official and canon. Though some dispute this, so Idk.

[Ryzaki]

Huh. Extremely interesting.



I wonder how things would've gone had Cailan and Celene married.



Oh well. Won't happen now.



Thanks Sarah, KoP.

[Sarah1281]

Yes, even if you don't buy the WoG 'Celene and Cailan were going to marry' and think Loghain's WMG, the fact that he does believe that Orlais will retake Ferelden means you can use Orlais retaking Ferelden to explain what Loghain means with that quote Addai aksed about.

[Addai]

So, I've been spending numerous hours* trawling the old forums and found some interesting dev posts around the time The Stolen Throne came out.  Thought this one might be of interest here, since i recall Phaonica asking a similar question.  It's David Gaider responding.

Let's just keep in mind that Maric hate makes puppies everywhere cry! 

Posted: Thursday, 09 April 2009 09:55PM

Quote: Posted 04/09/09 19:45 (GMT) by Sylvius the Mad
I have no idea why he liked Maric. The book told me he did, but much like the scroll at the beginning of Star Wars telling me that Darth Vader was evil, if it hadn't been mentioned explicitly I never would have gone there myself based on the events that were actually portrayed.

Loghain was all the things that Maric wished he could be: competent, daring, deadly, etc. Likewise, Maric was many things that Loghain wished he could be: handsome, charismatic, loved by Rowan (and practically everyone else). In both cases, the flaws are overlooked by the other -- notice that Maric's never the one that calls Loghain on his thirst for vengeance, and Loghain never gripes about Maric's incompetence except in terms of getting him to change. To Loghain, after all, that IS caring. He protects those he cares about, regardless of how others might feel about that protection. I know several people like that, myself. You'd have to know them before you could rightly interpret what they were doing as affection.

Was Loghain actively destructive to Maric, however? Tough call on that one. He wasn't wrong about what Maric needed in order to become king -- it's just left to interpretation whether or not he actually had Maric's best interests at heart.

* If I were to add up the hours and hours of my life I have spent analyzing and discussing and thinking about these characters, I'd have to commit myself.  [/fanfiction induced neurotic rant]

Modifié par Addai67, 22 novembre 2010 - 01:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hmmm, I really didn't see Loghain's thirst for vengeance in the book. Most of the time, he didn't even know wth he was doing with Maric fighting Orlesians.

I dont' want to argue against the writer but. I really didn't see him thirsting over vengeance.

[Addai]

Well, for instance there is the fact that he wants to kill the prisoners from the first Gwaren attack.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, for instance there is the fact that he wants to kill the prisoners from the first Gwaren attack.

That seemed more an issue of convenience than being vengeful to me.
But it's been a while since I've read it and I forgot the details.

[Addai]

I would guess that DG is speaking to Loghain's general hatred of the Orlesians as well as his ruthlessness, which is something else he mentions in that thread.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I guess by the time of Cailan's succession it's moot, since it's obvious that Cailan needs Anora as much as she needs him.

She just needs his name.

I would be surprised if Anora actually loved Cailan. She says she did, but it sounds to me like she is lying, just to earn your sympathy and trust. Because I really can't see Anora actually falling in love with such a moron.
It's convenient for her, but love worthy? I really don't think so.

Add the fact that she seemingly wants to marry a man that ranks as high as her father. Does Cailan really sound like the kind of man that would be equal to Loghain in Anora's mind?

(husband)

I believe she had some degree of affection for him.   She has the same expressions talking about him at Eamons house as she does talking about her dad in his early years.

While some may see this as contrived I disagree because she doesn't seem to be able to cover up other expressions that go against her presentation.   (She for instance comes acrossed very strong at Eamon's house presenting her case yet has nervous habits like hand wringing that portray nervousness and vulnerability).   Loghain makes the statement later on "that she should have been a bard" concerning her drama and ability to manipulate.   While I think there is truth in that I don't think she has that level of skill.    She  seems to have inherited much of her fathers temperment when it comes to dealing with people.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 novembre 2010 - 04:29 .