12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

How was Howe planning to get away with killing off the Couslands if Loghain's coup wasn't already planned?

[Dean_the_Young]

By telling everyone that bandits took out the Couselands.

The only witness to the Couseland massacre, after all, is a Couseland.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 31 août 2010 - 06:41 .

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

How was Howe planning to get away with killing off the Couslands if Loghain's coup wasn't already planned?

Howe's plan was likely to kill anyone who could implicate him as the responsible party in killing off all of the Couslands, and using his alliance with Loghain to make him the new Teyrn. As to what Loghain knew of the plan, Gaider has said he wasn't privy to it. There were multiple writers on DA:O so there are bound to be inconsistencies. For instance, although there are lines in DA:O about Loghain's men investigating the tower that support the idea of Loghain using the darkspawn to overrun the tower, Gaider has said otherwise.

Does anyone think that the Orlesian Wardens will take advantage of Loghain's knowledge as a general if he's made a Grey Warden and sent to Orlais, or might the First Warden be trying to isolate Loghain as a result of Ostagar?

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I think there might be even another level to Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens that hasn't been mentioned here yet. Loghain believes that the Wardens *want* this to be a Blight. In the Calling he says "This order has been waning in importance since the last Blight and would do anything to frighten the world into believing they still have relevance." Loghain thinks the Wardens want this to be a Blight as badly as Cailan does and for exactly the same reasons: glory.

  Or are the Grey Wardens in cahoots with the darkspawn, too, and arranged it all? 

In Loghain's experience, both Orlesians and Wardens *have* plotted with darkspawn. So it's not baseless.

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

In Loghain's experience, both Orlesians and Wardens *have* plotted with darkspawn. So it's not baseless.

You're seeeriously suggesting that Loghain believed the Grey Wardens coordinated the Ostagar attack with the darkspawn? 

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 He's the one who got such a close-up view of the darkspawn horde that he had to abandon the king's army, right? 

Save half of Ferelden's army from what probably was a lost battle, more like it.
 
We can discuss this all over again and again and again.

The point being that Loghain's assumption that it wasn't a Blight was, after Ostagar, dumb.

Darkspawn horde of unusual size... evidence of strategy and coordination...  hmmm.  Curious!  But no, it must have all been an Orlesian plot. 

[Dean_the_Young]

What sign of coordination? Going through the Tower Ishal was just another avenue of approach,hardly proof of planning.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Howe's plan was likely to kill anyone who could implicate him as the responsible party in killing off all of the Couslands

Was he going to kill his own men?  Even if he was willing, he'd then have to cover that up

News was always going to leak out somehow.  It only makes sense if he can be confident that there would be no serious inquiry into what happened - and that needs Loghain in charge.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
The point being that Loghain's assumption that it wasn't a Blight was, after Ostagar, dumb.

Darkspawn horde of unusual size... evidence of strategy and coordination...  hmmm.  Curious!  But no, it must have all been an Orlesian plot. 

No archdemon in sight. Darkspawn can coordinate without needing an archdemon (they raid a lot and fight the dwarves underground with no archdemon). Most of the horde still underground and not in sight.
 
So no, it was not dumb.
The only "evidence" of a blight was Grey Warden dreams, which he doesn't believe exist or are reliable.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What sign of coordination? Going through the Tower Ishal was just another avenue of approach,hardly proof of planning.

Loghain doesn't even know what happened at the tower.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
News was always going to leak out somehow.  It only makes sense if he can be confident that there would be no serious inquiry into what happened - and that needs Loghain in charge.

And that contradicts Gaider's comments, as Loghain himself was not even sure he will carry this out, he only decided when the beacon was lit. So with your logic, Howe took an even bigger risk assuming that Loghain will be in charge.

[CalJones]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
Well that's my point, he was planning it by that point (toying with the idea if you will). But DANG, where is everyone getting these Gaider quotes from? I need to see them because people keep referencing and not sourcing.

From the old complete Loghain defense thread: http://social.biowar...47/index/583297
It's big, not sure if you have the patience to scroll through it and find Gaider's posts.

Aaah, memories. One of the best threads I participated in.  

Here's the link to Gaider's posts regarding the beacon and Tower of Ishal: http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250

Modifié par CalJones, 31 août 2010 - 07:45 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The point being that Loghain's assumption that it wasn't a Blight was, after Ostagar, dumb.

Darkspawn horde of unusual size... evidence of strategy and coordination...  hmmm.  Curious!  But no, it must have all been an Orlesian plot. 

No archdemon in sight. Darkspawn can coordinate without needing an archdemon (they raid a lot and fight the dwarves underground with no archdemon). Most of the horde still underground and not in sight.
 
So no, it was not dumb.
The only "evidence" of a blight was Grey Warden dreams, which he doesn't believe exist or are reliable.  

So we are admiting dreams into evidence now?
Cookies for the quote!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Saren.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

In Loghain's experience, both Orlesians and Wardens *have* plotted with darkspawn. So it's not baseless.

You're seeeriously suggesting that Loghain believed the Grey Wardens coordinated the Ostagar attack with the darkspawn? 

*cough*

[Dean_the_Young]

Ha, alright Giggles, you win. That one does take the cake in this thread.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 31 août 2010 - 07:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea, KO from Giggles. I was waiting for Phaonica to reply to that.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The point being that Loghain's assumption that it wasn't a Blight was, after Ostagar, dumb.

Darkspawn horde of unusual size... evidence of strategy and coordination...  hmmm.  Curious!  But no, it must have all been an Orlesian plot. 

No archdemon in sight. Darkspawn can coordinate without needing an archdemon (they raid a lot and fight the dwarves underground with no archdemon). Most of the horde still underground and not in sight.
 
So no, it was not dumb.
The only "evidence" of a blight was Grey Warden dreams, which he doesn't believe exist or are reliable.  

Everyone takes the darkspawn to be mindless apart from an AD's leading them.  This is the major WTF of Amaranthine, after all.

But let's say he is still not sure.  A good general would look at a major military defeat where he was the main strategist and say, "wow, what a major f-up, what went wrong?"  Including the consideration that maybe he was wrong in his assumptions about the enemy.

Your argument makes Loghain look worse, not better.  In fact, this entire discussion makes me wonder who the Loghain supporters are and who the detractors, because your attempts to paint his actions as logical and justified make him look like more of a neurotic sack than I ever pictured. 

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

In Loghain's experience, both Orlesians and Wardens *have* plotted with darkspawn. So it's not baseless.

You're seeeriously suggesting that Loghain believed the Grey Wardens coordinated the Ostagar attack with the darkspawn? 

*cough*

Okay, realllly?  Really, really, for real, we are discussing the possibility that the Grey Wardens planned the attack on Ostagar?

And, what, included in the plan a mass suicide?

This thread scares me.

[phaonica]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

In Loghain's experience, both Orlesians and Wardens *have* plotted with darkspawn. So it's not baseless.

You're seeeriously suggesting that Loghain believed the Grey Wardens coordinated the Ostagar attack with the darkspawn? 

*cough*

This. You did read the Calling, right? The Wardens' involvement in that plan was every bit as crazy as the idea that they might have had some influence in bringing a Blight to Ferelden. He knows the Wardens are capable of conspiring not only with the Orlesians, but with the Darkspawn, because in his experience, they have.

(edit for clarity)

Modifié par phaonica, 31 août 2010 - 08:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Everyone takes the darkspawn to be mindless apart from an AD's leading them.  This is the major WTF of Amaranthine, after all.

The events of the calling proving that there are smart darkspawn around. 
And no, everyone knows that the darkspawn raid all the time without an archdemon, even in the anderfels. And that they are also tribal. Many DS went to the Free marches after the Blight and the Achitect seemingly doesn't have anythign to do with it.
 

Addai67 wrote...
But let's say he is still not sure.  A good general would look at a major military defeat where he was the main strategist and say, "wow, what a major f-up, what went wrong?"  Including the consideration that maybe he was wrong in his assumptions about the enemy.

Cailan went wrong. Loghain never wanted this battle from the very beginning, it's clear when you talk to him at Ostagar. That plus the beacon not lighting in time.

Addai67 wrote...
Your argument makes Loghain look worse, not better.  In fact, this entire discussion makes me wonder who the Loghain supporters are and who the detractors, because your attempts to paint his actions as logical and justified make him look like more of a neurotic sack than I ever pictured. 

Good for you. 

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Everyone takes the darkspawn to be mindless apart from an AD's leading them.  This is the major WTF of Amaranthine, after all.

The events of the calling proving that there are smart darkspawn around. 
And no, everyone knows that the darkspawn raid all the time without an archdemon, even in the anderfels. And that they are also tribal. Many DS went to the Free marches after the Blight and the Achitect seemingly doesn't have anythign to do with it.

As far as everyone knows after TC, the Architect is gone.  Even if we accept that it's the Architect and not an AD at work in Ostagar...?  That doesn't change anything.  Call it a "coordinated mass darkspawn attack" if the quibble suits you.

Cailan went wrong. Loghain never wanted this battle from the very beginning, it's clear when you talk to him at Ostagar. That plus the beacon not lighting in time.

You believe he thought the battle lost before the beacon was lit.  Which again brings up the question of why he didn't charge earlier, when he could have still turned the battle, or else retreated.  Why wait for the beacon either way?  No matter, it was still his battle plan, and the only thing he objected to in it was Cailan being in the front lines.  I don't recall him ever saying "we're going to lose" or "we should pull back."  What I do recall is him saying "this plan will suffice."

[Addai]

phaonica wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

In Loghain's experience, both Orlesians and Wardens *have* plotted with darkspawn. So it's not baseless.

You're seeeriously suggesting that Loghain believed the Grey Wardens coordinated the Ostagar attack with the darkspawn? 

*cough*

This. You did read the Calling, right? The Wardens' involvement in that plan was every bit as crazy as the idea that they might have had some influence in bringing a Blight to Ferelden. He knows the Wardens are capable of conspiring not only with the Orlesians, but with the Darkspawn, because in his experience, they have.

(edit for clarity)

A few Wardens were helping the Architect, as were some mages and some Orlesians, and it was also the Wardens along with Maric and Loghain who put down the Architect's plan.  Loghain witnessed both.  If he only sees "Wardens work with darkspawn," that's because of his own obsessions.

Still, I have to hand it to you.  In all my time on the boards I've now heard something new.  The Grey Wardens planned Ostagar... wow.  This is a new, even nuttier Loghain than I had envisioned.  Of course, there's not a scrap of evidence in the game that Loghain actually believes this.  Give the guy a little credit!

[Costin_Razvan]

I grow weary of trying to find an explanation for every sodding point. That's why I am going to quote TIM from ME: Retribution.

"The simple-minded focused on the holes in the story; they needed an explanation for every loose end. The intelligent filled in the holes themselves, using logic, reason, and creative thinking to weave the threads together" - The Illusive Man, Mass Effect: Retribution

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 31 août 2010 - 08:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
As far as everyone knows after TC, the Architect is gone.  Even if we accept that it's the Architect and not an AD at work in Ostagar...?  That doesn't change anything.  Call it a "coordinated mass darkspawn attack" if the quibble suits you.

Which he did not ignore. He was tryign to get mages and dwarves as allies. But he thought, and I don't blame him, that 4 entire legions of chevaliers massing at the borders were the most immediate threat.

You believe he thought the battle lost before the beacon was lit.  Which again brings up the question of why he didn't charge earlier, when he could have still turned the battle, or else retreated.  Why wait for the beacon either way?  No matter, it was still his battle plan, and the only thing he objected to in it was Cailan being in the front lines.  I don't recall him ever saying "we're going to lose" or "we should pull back."  What I do recall is him saying "this plan will suffice."

Because if he charged earlier, it could have been a disaster. He did not have full view of the battlefield to know exactly when to charge.  But he did have enough view to realise there are more of them than expected. The beacon was lit too late and Loghain, thinking that the battle was lost at point, left. Why didnt' he retreat before? Because I think he was conflicted and was not sure what to do.

Tell him that you ddon't want to fight at Ostagar because you think it's carzy and he'll say something like "You are wiser than you look". 
He was being armtwisted by Cailan to do all this, as he had the "I can call for Orlesians you know, na na na naaaa" card.  Loghain's only mistake is not killing him way before.