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[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I, as acting Teryn of Highever, dispute Alistair's claim on the aforementioned basis.

Yeah, no you're not. Maybe you SHOULD be but Howe conquered Highever by force and took the teynir, thus it has to be restored to you at the coronation. Your only political support are vague 'Hey, we'll help you become a Teyrn again once the Blight is over' and as the Blight isn't over, it's not your teynir anymore.

It doesn't stop me claiming it, or other nobles from supporting me.

[Sarah1281]

You can claim it all you want, it still isn't yours as it's being occupied by Howe's forces and the other nobles DON'T support you. They just promise that, in the future when they're done worrying about the Blight, they'll look into supporting you.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...
I have just said that if Loghain were to deal with Warden-Cousland, Highever would undoubtedly be part of the bargain.

I haven't read the books, so I admit my ignorance; I am just going by the game.

Loghain sees the Wardens as tools of the Orlesians.  It doesn't matter how blue your blood is, if you're a Warden he is going to be suspicious of you, and after Ostagar when he has already declared the Wardens traitors, what inducement does he have to deal with a Cousland runt, let alone with a random Warden elf or dwarf or mage?

Politically speaking, you have no leg of your own to stand on, even as a remnant of the Couslands.

And as for your last point; a bastard accesion to the throne in the real world would bring shame on the monarchy and the previous monarch. A bastard can't help being a bastard after all, it's the predecessor who has shown irresponsibility.

Says who?  You should look into the kingship practices of the Germanic pre-Christian kings.  Those apply to the lore of Ferelden, as well.

P.S. No one claims it's an ideal situation, and this is reflected very well in the game e.g. by Eamon and Teagan as well as nobles saying "it sets a poor precedent" etc.  However, Anora's claim is also tenuous since she has no royal blood, is presumed to be working with her father, and some consider her still a commoner.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 décembre 2010 - 10:13 .

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
I have just said that if Loghain were to deal with Warden-Cousland, Highever would undoubtedly be part of the bargain.

I haven't read the books, so I admit my ignorance; I am just going by the game.

Loghain sees the Wardens as tools of the Orlesians.  It doesn't matter how blue your blood is, if you're a Warden he is going to be suspicious of you, and after Ostagar when he has already declared the Wardens traitors, what inducement does he have to deal with a Cousland runt, let alone with a random Warden elf or dwarf or mage?

Politically speaking, you have no leg of your own to stand on, even as a remnant of the Couslands.

And as for your last point; a bastard accesion to the throne in the real world would bring shame on the monarchy and the previous monarch. A bastard can't help being a bastard after all, it's the predecessor who has shown irresponsibility.

Says who?  You should look into the kingship practices of the Germanic pre-Christian kings.  Those apply to the lore of Ferelden, as well.

It matters how many allies among the nobility I have, because then I could take take back what is mine. THAT is the leg I stand on. Nobles always used to rebel agaist someone with their allies.

And I thought that DAO was based upon Christian times because of the chantry? I am relatively familiar with the Saxon kings (not as much as post-1066) but is that what you mean? 

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

It matters how many allies among the nobility I have, because then I could take take back what is mine. THAT is the leg I stand on. Nobles always used to rebel agaist someone with their allies.

You have a Blight and civil war to contend with first.  After that's taken care of, your family does get the teyrnir back.  During the game events, though, that's not possible by virtue of the national crisis going on.  No one has any troops to spare and the whole country is under existential threat, with shifting alliances and civil unrest.

And I thought that DAO was based upon Christian times because of the chantry? I am relatively familiar with the Saxon kings (not as much as post-1066) but is that what you mean? 

Again, historical influences are loose and are only used as inspiration, not correlation.  Germanic kings were chosen by election and answered to the tribes, and sons could challenge each other.  In the game, Alistair is even considered a threat to Cailan's rule before Cailan's death.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wereparrot wrote...

William the Conqueror was a userper. He never inherited anything.

You would be wrong. William was named by his father as heir. William was seen as the rightful heir, Harold, refusing to step aside, was the ursurper.

[Wulfram]

It's a shame we didn't get to do the traditional thing and make up a story about how Maric and random serving girl were secretly married

Modifié par Wulfram, 03 décembre 2010 - 10:28 .

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

It matters how many allies among the nobility I have, because then I could take take back what is mine. THAT is the leg I stand on. Nobles always used to rebel agaist someone with their allies.

You have a Blight and civil war to contend with first.  After that's taken care of, your family does get the teyrnir back.  During the game events, though, that's not possible by virtue of the national crisis going on.  No one has any troops to spare and the whole country is under existential threat, with shifting alliances and civil unrest.

And I thought that DAO was based upon Christian times because of the chantry? I am relatively familiar with the Saxon kings (not as much as post-1066) but is that what you mean? 

Again, historical influences are loose and are only used as inspiration, not correlation.  Germanic kings were chosen by election and answered to the tribes, and sons could challenge each other.  In the game, Alistair is even considered a threat to Cailan's rule before Cailan's death.

Bastards often where considered threats to the rightful heir, but that didn't make the any more legitimate.

Are you talking about kings of Germany of Saxon English kings? Because if you are speaking of Saxons, you are only partially correct. The monarchy as we know it was established by King Offa and then King Egbert.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 03 décembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Wereparrot]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

William the Conqueror was a userper. He never inherited anything.

You would be wrong. William was named by his father as heir. William was seen as the rightful heir, Harold, refusing to step aside, was the ursurper.

Yes, according to the Bayeaux Tapestry, which is taken with a pinch of salt by historians, as it is merely the account of the victors of the Battle of Hastings, so you can see why it might be biased.

And it was Edward the Confessor, not his father.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 03 décembre 2010 - 10:33 .

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

Bastards often where considered threats to the rightful heir, but that didn't make the any more legitimate.

Are you talking about kings of Germany on Saxon English kings? Because if you are speaking of Saxons, you are only partially correct. The monarchy as we know it was established by King Offa and then King Egbert.

I'm talking about Germania, i.e. continental pre-Roman.  Some Germanic customs bled over into England as well, such as the rights of freeholders and the folkmoot.

Again, legitimacy doesn't matter in the end if the Landsmeet says it doesn't.  Just as the fact that Anora is not of royal blood and is from an upjumped commoner background and a single woman doesn't matter.  If the LM confirms the monarch and the Blight is defeated, whoever is chosen ruler has a secure throne.

[Wereparrot]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...

Bastards often where considered threats to the rightful heir, but that didn't make the any more legitimate.

Are you talking about kings of Germany on Saxon English kings? Because if you are speaking of Saxons, you are only partially correct. The monarchy as we know it was established by King Offa and then King Egbert.
[/quote]
I'm talking about Germania, i.e. continental pre-Roman.  Some Germanic customs bled over into England as well, such as the rights of freeholders and the folkmoot.[/quote]

I'm not too hot on tribal history, but I think I remember something of the sort; the line of succession wasn't as strict in the days of Celts and the like. All this time I've been referring to national history.[/quote]


[/quote]Again, legitimacy doesn't matter in the end if the Landsmeet says it doesn't.  Just as the fact that Anora is not of royal blood and is from an upjumped commoner background and a single woman doesn't matter.  If the LM confirms the monarch and the Blight is defeated, whoever is chosen ruler has a secure throne.[/quote]

This is the actual gameplay. Afterall, it is merely an opinion.

EDIT: Messed the quote up.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 03 décembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

This is the actual gameplay. Afterall, it is merely an opinion.

EDIT: Messed the quote up.

Not sure what you mean here.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

This is the actual gameplay. Afterall, it is merely an opinion.

EDIT: Messed the quote up.

Not sure what you mean here.

All I have been trying to express is an opinion that Bioware should've paid more attention to (post-Christian) custom.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

This is the actual gameplay. Afterall, it is merely an opinion.

EDIT: Messed the quote up.

Not sure what you mean here.

All I have been trying to express is an opinion that Bioware should've paid more attention to (post-Christian) custom.

Ah, ok.  Well, they are writing character-driven stories, not historical fiction, so I prefer they write a good story.  There is enough correlation to real events and institutions that it feels sort of familiar without being a copy.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

This is the actual gameplay. Afterall, it is merely an opinion.

EDIT: Messed the quote up.

Not sure what you mean here.

All I have been trying to express is an opinion that Bioware should've paid more attention to (post-Christian) custom.

Ah, ok.  Well, they are writing character-driven stories, not historical fiction, so I prefer they write a good story.  There is enough correlation to real events and institutions that it feels sort of familiar without being a copy.

n has the
Agreed. Afterall, DAO is still a great game; Oblivion has the same problem if I'm being argumentative, but it's only a game.

[Esbatty]

Someone has got to break up the historical nerd slap fight going down here...







'Batty knows what ya'll want.

[CalJones]

Thanks. That picture never gets old.

And no, I'm not a history nerd either - I dropped the subject at 13 in favour of geography.

[Esbatty]

The only reason I'm familiar with historical stuff is because its so wrapped up in Literature. Not that I was an English Major or nothing, this is coming from a guy who had originally majored in computer science until he learned of all the Math he'd have to take. Yeah I'll stick with my Sociology Degree and all the Literature and Philosophy courses that entailed. Good times. *salutes Profs. Chekuri and Nolen*

[CalJones]

Heh, I did a Philosophy degree. I loved moral philosophy, and that's why I find game choices so interesting.

[Esbatty]

CalJones wrote...

Heh, I did a Philosophy degree. I loved moral philosophy, and that's why I find game choices so interesting.

Yeah discovering these RPGs has really made my college-loan-senses tingle. I went from shooters and licensed games to RPGs after picking up Mass Effect... which led to ME2 to which I grabbed DAO and so on and so forth.

*quashes attempt to further derail Loghain thread*

*ahem*

But the things I've gleaned over the years really make me appreciate all the work put into these games. Loghain is a great example of not just a good villian but damn good character. He has this fire and drive that he exudes, the fact it takes some serious amount of investment in cunning to get the man guarding his tent to simply just talk about Loghain let alone get him to drag his ass out of the tent for a quick meeting speaks volumes of the dedication. It wasn't a "fear" of Loghain's wrath for disturbing him but just respect for not his station but his damn privacy and mindset before this major battle that is about to go down.

[alschemid]

Esbatty wrote...



'Batty knows what ya'll want.

You do indeed... I love this pic....

[Addai]

Esbatty wrote...

The only reason I'm familiar with historical stuff is because its so wrapped up in Literature. Not that I was an English Major or nothing, this is coming from a guy who had originally majored in computer science until he learned of all the Math he'd have to take. Yeah I'll stick with my Sociology Degree and all the Literature and Philosophy courses that entailed. Good times. *salutes Profs. Chekuri and Nolen*

Hehe, I'm a history nerd I'm afraid.  I majored in German literature with heavy specialty on medieval and chew on historical nuggets like candy.  But I have a poor memory for dates and things, so I usually throw out stuff without the required detail and then the other history nerds throw rotten eggs.

Anyway...  Prior to playing Fallout 3, I had a big 'tude about video games.  I'm still skeptical that the gamer thing will stick, because I have trouble branching out beyond the few games I play obsessively.

[Wereparrot]

I don't really think it's nerdy; I would call science nerdy, but there you go. I'm really interested in Ango-Norman history; and often, while I can enjoy fantasy games for what they are, I can't help picking holes in them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am a "history-nerd" too, especially about Middle Eastern history. They should totally make an RPG set there, Western Medieval RPGs, while great, are getting old.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 décembre 2010 - 03:12 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Not going to happen Knight, and you know it. I want a Eastern Europe Medieval RPG, sigh...