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[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...


DG has said, however, that the game concept came first and he based the books on that.  How fleshed out that was at the time he wrote the novels, hard to say.  We know the game's main story line was changed on the fly, even after some of Loghain's VO was recorded, which is pretty late.  I would say the general characteristics of Loghain were always the same- a ruthless guy who got the job done, frequently jobs no one else wanted to do, who was stuck on Orlais.

Yeah, pretty much. There's a few discrepancies between in-game and the books, and we do no several things in game were either changed or omitted completely in game. I would say, however, that I agree, at the core, Loghain in book and Loghain in game are at the core.

Interestingly, it was seeing Loghain in Awakenings, as well as some of his origins convos that made me like him, because they showed Loghain as a person, and not simply some drab general/patriot/historical figure. Especially Awakening, because it is that one small cutscene where Loghain becomes the most human and three dimensional. It is there you see him as much more relaxed, more a person, free from the mental, moral, and personal burdens of leadership/power. He doesn't like it, but he does it anyway because he thinks it's necessary.

Generally, I find the Napoleons/Ceasars/Ghengis Khans/Hitlers of history quite boring as people, really. They are important figures in the history of civilization, but made it there because of what they did, whichm, down to the core of things, is really the same thing: little men with great grandiose plans and ambitions: domination and conquest, power and glory. As individuals, however, they are just meh, in my opinion.

Loghain, however, is far more interesting as an individual then as a figure.

[Persephone]

A badass looking Loghain screenie I found:

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Generally, I find the Napoleons/Ceasars/Ghengis Khans/Hitlers of history quite boring as people, really. They are important figures in the history of civilization, but made it there because of what they did, whichm, down to the core of things, is really the same thing: little men with great grandiose plans and ambitions: domination and conquest, power and glory. As individuals, however, they are just meh, in my opinion.

Loghain, however, is far more interesting as an individual then as a figure.

Agreed.  Those types of people crave power and have dynastic ambitions.  Loghain even denies aspiring to be a great general, judging by his banter with Morrigan.  He's been forced by circumstances into power, not ambition.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eh, Loghain is one of the few unambitious people that I respect. I generally sympathize more with the ambitious and visionary. They are the ones who change the world.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2010 - 11:14 .

[CalJones]

Yes...it's why Teagan's "power mad" rant annoys me (that and Eamon...but Eamon annoys me anyway, heh).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Actually, it's Eamon's comments that encouraged me to believe that Loghain did not want power. That and his "racoon eyes" that everyone seems to hate here.

[Giggles_Manically]

I like Loghain because he was not simply the villain who took power for powers sake.



He was a foe who we ended up fighting because he thought he was doing what was best, just like the warden was. It would have been so easy for Bioware to make him a simple cartoon villain, but they did not.



I dont even really consider him the "villain" of Dragon Age, mainly since I recruit him in at least 95% of games.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I dont even really consider him the "villain" of Dragon Age, mainly since I recruit him in at least 95% of games.

That's a higher percentage than mine.

[Giggles_Manically]

Does this entitle me to more KoP points then?



I used my last ones during a boxing day sale.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sure, have a hundred.

[Sarah1281]

I'm not sure the percentage of games I recruit him in but canonically only my HNF did not recruit him. She felt very bad about it but she kind of needed to stay at least somewhat on Alistair's good side or he wouldn't marry her and she couldn't become queen.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Agreed.  Those types of people crave power and have dynastic ambitions.  Loghain even denies aspiring to be a great general, judging by his banter with Morrigan.  He's been forced by circumstances into power, not ambition.

Yeah, exactly. Such individuals are rare, even rarer are ones who are actually three dimensional and rather complex.

@KoP: Racoon eyes. They do reflect the great stresses and pressure Loghain is under. However, even though I know this, I see raccoon eyes, and the closer and more immediate association I have with such discoloration is of the  villagers ambling up the mountain after a week long binge of drugs, alcohol, and mating with anything drawing breath. And given Loghain's quite pale complexion, it makes him look more like a Trent Reznor impersonator coming off a weekend meth bender.

So, for the sake aesthetics, I remove them, and just pretend he has more aesthetically pleasing indicators of a stressful, depressing life.

[DragonRacer13]

KoP: I think it's just you, me, and Cal that like the raccoon eyes. All the pics where mods remove them just look... strange to me. Then again, I have several family members who just naturally seem to have baggish, purply under-eyes -- no undue stress and lack of sleep required -- so methinks it's just something I'm naturally not put off by.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh, Loghain is one of the few unambitious people that I respect. I generally sympathize more with the ambitious and visionary. They are the ones who change the world.

They also do a lot of damage.  I have an allergy towards big reformers, especially of the poltical variety.  People's "big ideas" usually mean havoc for a lot of people who never asked to be "saved."  Often it's caught up in personal ambition, too, even though they usually say it's for the greater good, about the big idea, etc.

It's the major difference I see between Loghain and Anora.  She got a heavy dose of personal ambition as a result of being bred to be queen.  She'd probably have been better off being raised to be just the teyrn's daughter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If the fate of humanity was dependent on the will of those "lots of people", we would be living in caves and huts.

Personal ambition and the greater good are not mutually exclusive and more often then not, those who served the greater good had a healthy dosage of ambition for themselves and their communities.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Personal ambition and the greater good are not mutually exclusive and more often then not, those who served the greater good had a healthy dosage of ambition for themselves and their communities

Precisely. Take for example Augustus: He came in power out of his own personal desire, but the changes he made greatly prolonged the longevity of the Roman Empire.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Precisely. Take for example Augustus: He came in power out of his own personal desire, but the changes he made greatly prolonged the longevity of the Roman Empire.

And the people loved him for it. So much so that they were angry he didn't disolve the Senate and declare himself dictator for life.

Fortunately Augustus was wiser than that and didn't need audacious displays of power. He in fact had informal powers that surpassed that of a dictator anyways.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the fate of humanity was dependent on the will of those "lots of people", we would be living in caves and huts.

Personal ambition and the greater good are not mutually exclusive and more often then not, those who served the greater good had a healthy dosage of ambition for themselves and their communities.

You don't give humanity much credit.  People can be ambitious all they like, so long as they do so on their own turf, with their own resources or those voluntarily contributed.  It's when they're forcefully ambitious on behalf of other people that there's a problem.

[CalJones]

Like the ambitious boss who expands his company to the point where it becomes no longer financially viable and he has to start sacking people? Yes, I've worked for one of those.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Agreed with Cal and Addai. I have no personal issues with the ambitous, provided their ambition does not involve dragging me into it unwillingly.



You see, I personally have no desire to promote/support a "greater good" or any other grand social project. In fact, I prefer to leave people to their own devices and let them decide their direction, and deal with whatever consequences. So, if the masses simply lack the motivation to evolve socially/technologically and wish to continue whatever primkitive/ancestral pattern suits them, let them. If a group of individuals realize that they want to be part of something greater, et them break away from the masses and pursue their ambition, reaping the rewards of their own inititive.



I do not think progress or the evolution of human nature can be forced. You can force the rabble along your chosen path because they lack the consciousness to think beyond their limited existance, but they will still, at their core, be little different from the "savages" that live in huts and caves. Like many herd animals, they will follow unthinkingly in the direction that promises better grazing, more breeding opportunities. They might be better dressed, better fed cattle, but they are still cattle.



And I personally am content to let the cattle fend for themselves. But I am a bit of a Darwinist/misanthropist in those matters.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
You don't give humanity much credit.  People can be ambitious all they like, so long as they do so on their own turf, with their own resources or those voluntarily contributed.  It's when they're forcefully ambitious on behalf of other people that there's a problem.

No, it's not a problem. Most people lack the long term view necessary to realize what is needed. They either need to be inspired and led by either one person or a group, which is preferrable, or forced.  Otherwise, they will remain content with survival and nothing else.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 Like many herd animals, they
will follow unthinkingly in the direction that promises better grazing,
more breeding opportunities. They might be better dressed, better fed
cattle, but they are still cattle.

Of course most of them are, and they always will be. But there are different kinds of cattle. There is the kind of cattle that lives in a group that achieved numerous advancements, scientific and otherwise, and imposed its will on the other groups. And there is the other cattle that is too weak to fend for itself, or to do anything of importance except weep and regret its once great past. If whips are needed (which I prefer they are not) to wake that cattle from its slumber before it's eaten, then so be it.  

"panem et circenses" (Bread and circus) - Augustus

That's what the cattle want and that's why I would not trust them to do what ambitious people have done.
It's them that made history and it's them that paved the way for any sort of advancement. If it's up to the cattle, they will be eaten, in one way or another, by the others.

I personally reject the kind of individualism that seperates me from my community and makes me oblivious to its needs and greatness. Though of course I reject totalitarianism completely, individuals should remain individuals, within a social context.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Gabey5]

Addai67 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Generally, I find the Napoleons/Ceasars/Ghengis Khans/Hitlers of history quite boring as people, really. They are important figures in the history of civilization, but made it there because of what they did, whichm, down to the core of things, is really the same thing: little men with great grandiose plans and ambitions: domination and conquest, power and glory. As individuals, however, they are just meh, in my opinion.

Loghain, however, is far more interesting as an individual then as a figure.

Agreed.  Those types of people crave power and have dynastic ambitions.  Loghain even denies aspiring to be a great general, judging by his banter with Morrigan.  He's been forced by circumstances into power, not ambition.

logain wasnt forced into any position. He had choice and he made it.

[jpdipity]

Gabey5 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Generally, I find the Napoleons/Ceasars/Ghengis Khans/Hitlers of history quite boring as people, really. They are important figures in the history of civilization, but made it there because of what they did, whichm, down to the core of things, is really the same thing: little men with great grandiose plans and ambitions: domination and conquest, power and glory. As individuals, however, they are just meh, in my opinion.

Loghain, however, is far more interesting as an individual then as a figure.

Agreed.  Those types of people crave power and have dynastic ambitions.  Loghain even denies aspiring to be a great general, judging by his banter with Morrigan.  He's been forced by circumstances into power, not ambition.

logain wasnt forced into any position. He had choice and he made it.

You're right Loghain was not forced - he chose it.  However, he did not choose it because of ambition.  His decisions in the game don't appear ambitious or in an attempt for more power to me either.

Modifié par jpdipity, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:15 .

[Gabey5]

jpdipity wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Generally, I find the Napoleons/Ceasars/Ghengis Khans/Hitlers of history quite boring as people, really. They are important figures in the history of civilization, but made it there because of what they did, whichm, down to the core of things, is really the same thing: little men with great grandiose plans and ambitions: domination and conquest, power and glory. As individuals, however, they are just meh, in my opinion.

Loghain, however, is far more interesting as an individual then as a figure.

Agreed.  Those types of people crave power and have dynastic ambitions.  Loghain even denies aspiring to be a great general, judging by his banter with Morrigan.  He's been forced by circumstances into power, not ambition.

logain wasnt forced into any position. He had choice and he made it.

You're right Loghain was not forced - he chose it.  However, he did not choose it because of ambition.  His decisions in the game don't appear ambitious or in an attempt for more power to me either.

he was delusional and paranoid, sure lets give the country that guy. He had all the power, his daughter which he kept locked away had the crown and he had the armies.  He is already at the top and ostagar was his ticket to rid himself of calian and the grey wardens( who are secretly orleasians spies of course)

[Addai]

Gabey5 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Generally, I find the Napoleons/Ceasars/Ghengis Khans/Hitlers of history quite boring as people, really. They are important figures in the history of civilization, but made it there because of what they did, whichm, down to the core of things, is really the same thing: little men with great grandiose plans and ambitions: domination and conquest, power and glory. As individuals, however, they are just meh, in my opinion.

Loghain, however, is far more interesting as an individual then as a figure.

Agreed.  Those types of people crave power and have dynastic ambitions.  Loghain even denies aspiring to be a great general, judging by his banter with Morrigan.  He's been forced by circumstances into power, not ambition.

logain wasnt forced into any position. He had choice and he made it.

Not how I see it.  He made the choice to disengage at Ostagar, but from Loghain's perspective that was forced upon him by Cailan's playing with the Orlesians, his determination to trust in Warden power and make a frontal charge and by the unforeseen circumstance of the horde being much larger than anyone anticipated.  An Orlesian force was massing at the Fereldan border and almost the entire Fereldan army was about to be wiped by darkspawn, leaving nothing to stop the Orlesians.  It was a choice, but it was still a rock and a hard place, and in that respect it was forced upon him.  He didn't have ambitions to the throne for himself but took the regency out of a sense of national emergency.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:30 .