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Why Teyrn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age


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#6901
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course most of them are, and they always will be. But there are different kinds of cattle. There is the kind of cattle that lives in a group that achieved numerous advancements, scientific and otherwise, and imposed its will on the other groups. And there is the other cattle that is too weak to fend for itself, or to do anything of importance except weep and regret its once great past. If whips are needed (which I prefer they are not) to wake that cattle from its slumber before it's eaten, then so be it.  



From my own perspective, if the cattle are too stupid to fend for themselves or wake up to avoid being eaten, I personally would prefer to allow it to be eaten, since it would serve little other purpose if it can't even rouse it's most basic survival instincts to prevent untimely death, the future of the herd, maybe the species, is better off without them.

In other words, I'm not inclined to save people from themselves. Those with potential beyond being livestock will be able to break away from the herd, mature, and evolve. The rest, well....let them graze and be eaten. At best, they serve a purpose in their mindless grazing by craping out fertilizer necessary for new vegetation to feed a newer and improved generation.

Most people really don't truly understand just what total freedom is, and can't handle it, because with total freedom comes absolute responsibility for one's welfare and actions, and dealing with the consequences of incorrect descisions. People assume freedom is a wonderful thing where you can do whatever you like without worry for consequence. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is why, despite my own personal belief in an enlightened, evolved anarchist system, such a system could not realistically exist, nor could it in the near, forseeable future. But I can still dream of, or ponder, very distant possibilities.

"panem et circenses" (Bread and circus) - Augustus



Few quotes from history still carry the truth and validity that this one does. Examining Ancient Rome and modern society, we see nothing has essentially changed. Same banal focus, same banal urges.

That's what the cattle want and that's why I would not trust them to do what ambitious people have done.
It's them that made history and it's them that paved the way for any sort of advancement. If it's up to the cattle, they will be eaten, in one way or another, by the others.



Yes, they have shaped history. However, they have whipped their perspective herds along, whether they want it or not, or inflicted their views, often by force, on people who were perfectly content to exist in their current state. Again, if the cattle get eaten, well...it is their own problem. Exceptional cattle will back away from a suicidal herd.



I personally reject the kind of individualism that seperates me from my community and makes me oblivious to its needs and greatness. Though of course I reject totalitarianism completely, individuals should remain individuals, within a social context.



Most people would, even the smarter ones. The majority of humans, even exceptional humans, are social creatures, and prefer to exist in communities with shared history, culture, values, ect.

I, however, am not one of them, and have never desired to identify with any community or group, religous, national, or otherwise. And I get terribly annoyed when said groups try to inflict their collective identity/values upon me, simply because, by circumstance and fate, I happened to be born within artifical national boundaries, or because I happened to be born into a family that followed a particular religion.

Though I can't deny that, regardless of how I may feel, my place, time, and cirumstances of birth and upbringing have shaped my views in various ways.

#6902
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
From my own perspective, if the cattle are too stupid to fend for themselves or wake up to avoid being eaten, I personally would prefer to allow it to be eaten, since it would serve little other purpose if it can't even rouse it's most basic survival instincts to prevent untimely death, the future of the herd, maybe the species, is better off without them.


Regardless of what you may or may not prefer, such a cattle, if it is ever going to make anything of itself, is going to require the leadership of visionaries.


Yes, they have shaped history. However, they have whipped their perspective herds along, whether they want it or not, or inflicted their views, often by force, on people who were perfectly content to exist in their current state.



And that's what's needed for societies to achieve something.
Whether you think that's a good thing or not is not my point. I think it's a good thing for visionaries to save their people from their own slumber. Whether they "deserve" it or not is besides the point.
 

Though I can't deny that, regardless of how I may feel, my place, time, and cirumstances of birth and upbringing have shaped my views in various ways.


Same.
I was raised to revel in our past, to escape the bitter reality of our pathetic existence and quite frankly, I've had enough. I abhor waste and I have seen a waste of potential every single day.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 07:20 .


#6903
Giggles_Manically

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I hate living in Canada sometimes for the same reason Skadi.



Canada is a perfectly peaceful living nation, without a bad past!

We only are peacekeepers who try to play nice with other countreis!



Getting spoon fed lies like that can really be annoying.

#6904
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You don't give humanity much credit.  People can be ambitious all they like, so long as they do so on their own turf, with their own resources or those voluntarily contributed.  It's when they're forcefully ambitious on behalf of other people that there's a problem.


No, it's not a problem. Most people lack the long term view necessary to realize what is needed. They either need to be inspired and led by either one person or a group, which is preferrable, or forced.  Otherwise, they will remain content with survival and nothing else.

If that's their choice, what right do you have to say otherwise?  The problem is, most reformers consider themselves god's gift to humanity, whether they are or not.

#6905
KnightofPhoenix

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Addai67 wrote...
If that's their choice, what right do you have to say otherwise?  The problem is, most reformers consider themselves god's gift to humanity, whether they are or not.


"Right" is an empty word.
Those people can do what they want because they have the will and capacity to do so, and the rest will follow because that's what they do best and that's what they need.
The results will either vindicate them, as God's gift, or not.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 08:35 .


#6906
Costin_Razvan

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If that's their choice, what right do you have to say otherwise? The problem is, most reformers consider themselves god's gift to humanity, whether they are or not.


You should read up on how life was in France during the Revolution before Napoleon took power and became a dictator. It is no real surprise the French respect him greatly despite the fact he engaged in a war where France lost a great deal.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 décembre 2010 - 08:40 .


#6907
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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@Giggles: Yeah, you understand, lol. I'm sure you can imagine the well fermented, vitamin D enriched crap your southern neighbors get fed. Or the outrage you get when you quite vocally disagree and decide to sleep in on the 4th of July. Especially if you're a vet.:o

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Regardless of what you may or may not prefer, such a cattle, if it is ever going to make anything of itself, is going to require the leadership of visionaries.



Not necessarily. Said cattle could very well be a visionary themselves, possessing an entirely different vision than anyone else before. It depends on what goal said exceptional cattle holds.


And that's what's needed for societies to achieve something.
Whether you think that's a good thing or not is not my point. I think it's a good thing for visionaries to save their people from their own slumber. Whether they "deserve" it or not is besides the point.



But who are "their people"? Who they consider to be "their people" does not necessitate a particular race, ethnic group, religous group, ect., in otherwords, it does not necessitate belonging to a group one is merely born into, without choice.

But in regards to saving people, what would exactly be the point? What do the rabble contribute towards the advancement of society or anything, other than feeding off it's fruits? What if, say, said visionaries decide "right, these people are idiots, let's go and form our own society run by and populated by our own ilk, who all think and act, and let the rabble wallow in their own much and get eaten." Likeminded individuals forming a superior society populated by no "useless eaters" who simply exist to breed, and who's burden will slow down the march of any real progress.
 

Same.
I was raised to revel in our past, to escape the bitter reality of our pathetic existence and quite frankly, I've had enough. I abhor waste and I have seen a waste of potential every single day.



I've see waste and excess of mind blowing proportions in my own society for years, coupled with blatant, pointless stupidity and self-defeating policies and descisions.  Only to discover not only do the cattle rather enjoy their slow march to extinction, but fight any efforts to actually implement better alternatives. And on a higher level, this is all part of someone's "vision" of progress and advancement.

It is at that point I decided Darwin might have been onto something.

#6908
KnightofPhoenix

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

If that's their choice, what right do you have to say otherwise? The problem is, most reformers consider themselves god's gift to humanity, whether they are or not.


You should read up on how life was in France during the Revolution before Napoleon took power and became a dictator. It is no real surprise the French respect him greatly despite the fact he engaged in a war where France lost a great deal.


His Code Civil, his administration, policies and his reforms remain part of the French system till this day (also his "Legion D'Honneur".
Add to that his emancipation of Jews, his German confederacy that contributed to the later German unification, his assistance to the Polish people, his idea of the Suez canal, amongst other things, and you can see that his legacy in Europe is quite strong despite his defeat.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 09:05 .


#6909
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

If that's their choice, what right do you have to say otherwise? The problem is, most reformers consider themselves god's gift to humanity, whether they are or not.


You should read up on how life was in France during the Revolution before Napoleon took power and became a dictator. It is no real surprise the French respect him greatly despite the fact he engaged in a war where France lost a great deal.



Napoleon is a prime example of a dictator saving the rabble from the "humanistic visionaries". Of how the idealist (Robspierre) is a bigger savage and brute than the "dictator".

It is one of the reasons also that I find popular democracy to be as dangerous as any single dictator with grand delusions.

#6910
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Not necessarily. Said cattle could very well be a visionary themselves, possessing an entirely different vision than anyone else before. It depends on what goal said exceptional cattle holds.


I have never seen a group being visionary in and of itself without a visionary.
Exceptional "cattles" are led by exceptional individuals. And if they hold enlightened ideas, the source is a person who came up with it.

But who are "their people"? Who they consider to be "their people" does not necessitate a particular race, ethnic group, religous group, ect., in otherwords, it does not necessitate belonging to a group one is merely born into, without choice.


That's irrelevent to the point. They decide where their loyalty lies.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
But in regards to saving people, what would exactly be the point? What do the rabble contribute towards the advancement of society or anything, other than feeding off it's fruits? What if, say, said visionaries decide "right, these people are idiots, let's go and form our own society run by and populated by our own ilk, who all think and act, and let the rabble wallow in their own much and get eaten." Likeminded individuals forming a superior society populated by no "useless eaters" who simply exist to breed, and who's burden will slow down the march of any real progress.

 
There will always be a need for manpower, labor and yes reproduction. They have their uses and they will benefit. If said visionaries have an emotional attachement to what they consider to be their people, or their culture / civilization, then they will act to their benefit. Whether they deserve it or not is irrelevent. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 08:56 .


#6911
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If that's their choice, what right do you have to say otherwise? The problem is, most reformers consider themselves god's gift to humanity, whether they are or not.


You should read up on how life was in France during the Revolution before Napoleon took power and became a dictator. It is no real surprise the French respect him greatly despite the fact he engaged in a war where France lost a great deal.



Napoleon is a prime example of a dictator saving the rabble from the "humanistic visionaries". Of how the idealist (Robspierre) is a bigger savage and brute than the "dictator".

It is one of the reasons also that I find popular democracy to be as dangerous as any single dictator with grand delusions.


Both Napoleon and Robespierre were visionaries. One was a realist (Napoleon), the other was an idealist (Robespierre) and it's the idealists in a position of power that are the most dangerous.

#6912
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I have never seen a group being visionary in and of itself without a visionary.
Exceptional "cattles" are led by exceptional individuals. And if they hold enlightened ideas, the source is a person who came up with it.



What I am referring to is a group of like minded individuals. A group of visionaries, with the same general goals, coming together, moving away from the cattle, and creating a different sdociety, exclusive to them.


That's irrelevent to the point. They decide where their loyalty lies.



But relevant to mine. A loyalty to a group of people, based on choice, not on common ancestry or culture, as the case of the general political entities of tribes, nations, ect.


 

There will always be a need for manpower, labor and yes reproduction. They have their uses and they will benefit. If said visionaries have an emotional attachement to what they consider to be their people, or their culture / civilization, then they will act to their benefit. Whether they deserve it or not is irrelevent. 



Their necessity diminishes as society becomes more advanced and mechanized.

#6913
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
What I am referring to is a group of like minded individuals. A group of visionaries, with the same general goals, coming together, moving away from the cattle, and creating a different sdociety, exclusive to them.


You mean like an esoteric utopia?
Eh, why not.

Wouldn't be a fan of it, because I genuinely care for my people, despite everything, and more importantly the ideas that founded our civilization and that can bound multiple groups and ethnicities under one umbrella. But that's subjective. Neither idea is inherently superior to the other.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 09:21 .


#6914
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You mean like an esoteric utopia?
Eh, why not.

Wouldn't be a fan of it, because I genuinely care for my people, despite everything, and more importantly the ideas that founded our civilization and that can bound multiple groups and ethnicities under one umbrella. But that's subjective. Neither idea is inherently superior to the other.



Naturally. I think we just tend to identify in different directions, with different loyalties. But I think we both agree that, left alone, the cattle will simply degenrate into primal behavior with no direction, even turn on themselves and become cannibalistic given various stimuli.

#6915
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
But I think we both agree that, left alone, the cattle will simply degenrate into primal behavior with no direction, even turn on themselves and become cannibalistic given various stimuli.


Oh yea. That's what happened with the Muslims in Spain for instance, until the Falcon of Quraish beat some sense into them (literraly). Without him, Al Andalus would have never become a shining beacon to the world at its time.

Sigh, one of my personal heroes. Abd Al Rahman Al Dakhil.  

But of course we ultimately ended up killing each other again and got our asses kicked. We so deserve it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 09:43 .


#6916
testing123

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 I think I would like this debate a lot more if people weren't being referred to as cattle.

#6917
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Oh yea. That's what happened with the Muslims in Spain for instance, until the Falcon of Quraish beat some sense into them (literraly). Without him, Al Andalus would have never become a shining beacon to the world at its time.

Sigh, one of my personal heroes. Abd Al Rahman Al Dakhil.  

But of course we ultimately ended up killing each other again and got our asses kicked. We so deserve it.



Hell, the whole reason the Muslims ended up in Spain was because the resident Visigoths were basically running amok and cracking skulls indiscriminately, and people wanted some order.

I think there was a monument to him in Cordoba, if I remember correctly from my last trip there.

#6918
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Hell, the whole reason the Muslims ended up in Spain was because the resident Visigoths were basically running amok and cracking skulls indiscriminately, and people wanted some order.


Yea. In fact, a large part (if not the majority) of the army under Tarik Ibn Ziyad that conquered Spain were native Christians and Jews (He only had 7000 Muslims).
I know that the Muslims left Cordoba under a Jewish garrison.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I think there was a monument to him in Cordoba, if I remember correctly from my last trip there.


I don't know if it's in Cordoba, but he does have a statue.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 09:55 .


#6919
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea. In fact, a large part (if not the majority) of the army under Tarik Ibn Ziyad that conquered Spain were native Christians and Jews (He only had 7000 Muslims).
I know that the Muslims left Cordoba under a Jewish garrison.



They did. In fact, in most of Andalucia, Muslims remained heavily in the minority. I think the University of Madrid did a genetic study of Spanish males, and they found that 10% of Spanish males had Sephardic Jew gene markers, but less than 5% had North African/Berber/Arabic ones. And if you go to Granada, you find alot more Jewish influence in the general architecture than Arabic.

Yeah, the Visigoths were basically running amok, fighting petty tribal wars, and ransacking Roman treasures/infrastructure. They had no clue about how useful the infrastructure they were destroying was (Roman aqueducts, bathouses, fortresses, roads, ect). In otherwords, dull witted cattle running roughshod through a china shop. 


Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


I don't know if it's in Cordoba, but he does have a statue.



What I remember was a plaque with a relief on it. I do remember the name, he is one of the most important figures in Andalucian history, and I see various mention of him in older places.

#6920
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


I don't know if it's in Cordoba, but he does have a statue.



What I remember was a plaque with a relief on it. I do remember the name, he is one of the most important figures in Andalucian history, and I see various mention of him in older places.


There is also another Abd Al Rahman. In fact, there was two and they are his descendants. Abd Al Rahman II and Abd Al Rahman III, who became the first Caliph in Al Andalus (929). Abd Al Rahman III was at least as great as his ancestor, if not greater, for he too saved the Emirate from the verge of collapse and turn it into a magnificient kingdom. 

So maybe it's one of the other two.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:28 .


#6921
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


I don't know if it's in Cordoba, but he does have a statue.



What I remember was a plaque with a relief on it. I do remember the name, he is one of the most important figures in Andalucian history, and I see various mention of him in older places.


There is also another Abd Al Rahman. In fact, there was two and they are his descendants. Abd Al Rahman II and Abd Al Rahman III, who became the first Caliph in Al Andalus (929). Abd Al Rahman III was at least as great as his ancestor, if not greater, for he too saved the Emirate from the verge of collapse and turn it into a magnificient kingdom. 

So maybe it's one of the other two.



Could be. As I said, I do remember the name.

I do agree, he was indeed worthy of recognition. Stabilizing this place and actually turning it into the only part of Europe not in the Dark Ages was a mammoth feat of maneuvering. In the region I live in (Provinca de Granada) it has, throught it's history, been one bad day away from barbarism. After the expulsion of the Moors in 1492, Andalucia was a continuous problem for subsequent regimes and monarchs.

#6922
Addai

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jvee wrote...

 I think I would like this debate a lot more if people weren't being referred to as cattle.

I agree with you.  But the "enlightened" always think they're a better sort of person.  Even as they're chopping off heads for the greater good.

On topic, NSFW Loghain and city elf for on-topic hotness.  :devil:

Modifié par Addai67, 31 décembre 2010 - 04:05 .


#6923
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Cattle is an appropriate term. Sure, people don't like it. Doesn't change the fact the majority of humanity are really cattle. Herd animals. Who will pretty much mill about chewing their cud while their herd masters chop off heads for the greater good, and so long as their lackladaisial cud chewing is not interrupted, they will sit by and passively watch the butcher come and slaughter their fellows without complaint. So, yes, they deserve to be referred to by what they are. Addai once said people get the government they deserve. I couldn't agree more. Looking through history, the societies and values of nations and empires, it's pretty clear to me what in fact, the cattle do always end up with the systems of governance they deserve and permit and even support. Further more, anytime attempts are made by individuals to alert and wake the cattle up are put down and crushed by the cattle themselves, who fear waking up and seeing the situation for what it is. More often than not, it is the cattle who gleefully enforce the will of morally and ethically corrupt leaders, keeping the status quo, no matter how untenable or potentially destructive it is.



They don't want change, because change requires refelection and can be painful. Much betetr just to graze and leave it in the hands of their herders, then actually think for themselves and realize that something is seriously wrong, and needs some serious fixing.

#6924
nos_astra

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Cattle is an appropriate term.

Well, you are part of the herd and if the term suits you who are we to say otherwise. Unless you think yourself clearly superior (for whatever reason)?

Modifié par klarabella, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:43 .


#6925
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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klarabella wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Cattle is an appropriate term.

Well, you are part of the herd and if the term suits you who are we to say otherwise. Unless you think yourself clearly superior (for whatever reason)?



In many aspects, yes. However, as I stated before, some cattle do wake up and decide they no longer wish to blindly follow the herd. Maybe because the smell of blood disturbs them, or they see the herdsmen coming to harvest. And they end up seperated from the herd, usually because they scare the other cattle.

As for superior, such a term is really limited, much like good/evil. It really amounts to what one def9ines as superior, as opposed to something different or out of the oridnary.