12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

I agree with everything you said, but I wasn't applying anything I was saying to Alistair or any situation in Dragon Age. I was simply disagreeing with the claim that religion has a stronger influence on political beliefs in the US than it does in the middle east. Many of those cultures condone very harsh and restrictive practices of the government in the name of religion.

Ok, now I see what you're point is. Thanks for clarifying.

The reference to Alistair was not Alistair himself, but in the Alistair fan thread, there was a debate about the nature and role of love, and ultimately, we concluded that attitudes towards love, marriage, and personal relationships are different between West and Middle East. As is the position/attitudes towards many aspects of marriage.

Anyway, in reference to the harsher culture, where more extreme and austere systems exist, they generally are not democracies, and thus, policy is not made by the people or elected officials, but a more authoritarian, extremely conservative state.

saudi Arabia being a prime example. I think what KoP is refering to is middle eastern countries where the population takes some signifigant part in the governing of the country, hence religion influcing voting issues. In otherwords, the right to vote or have direct influence on the system is prerequisite to his claim.

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You are working with the assumption that abortion is a political issue in the Middle East, when it isn't. It's a cultural / legal thing. And it's not the same as in the USA, where the issue is politicized and argued along party lines.
Law in our culture is not as politicized. It's based on schools of law and scholarship, not parties.

Which brings me back to my original argument, just to make it clear what I am talking about. That religiousity is not enough to know political views, on strictly political issues.
Culture is a different thing in our context.

You can't say it's a legal issue but not a political one. Who makes laws? The politicians, thus, it's a political issue. Just because a particular law is not largely contested doesn't mean it isn't political.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
When the risk is clear, with medical experts validating it, then it's legal.
We don't operate with the supposition that the fact that it might be risky to her life makes it acceptable, unless a medical experts says with reasonable certainty that it can.

Whether or not you operate with that supposition that it poses health risks to the woman in all cases doesn't change the fact that it does.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The man cannot have a child without the consent of the woman in the first place. If she didn't give her consent, then this is a different issue. She can't change her mind every day on this. Having a child is a commitment and responsability.

Of course he can't. The woman is the one who carries the child to term. If a woman wants to have an abortion it is likely she didn't intend to get pregnant in the first place. So I guess depending on where you live having a child is a commitment and a responsibility that can be forced on a woman from the man. You can't say she made the choice when she chose to have sex, because that's presuming she should not have the choice to have an abortion.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Not the issue and I do not mind.
You can mind all you want. That was not the point I was making, and quite frankly I don't really care.

It is the issue I'm discussing, which is how much religion affects political beliefs in the middle east. And here you are defending laws based on religious doctrine.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I think what KoP is refering to is middle eastern countries where the population takes some signifigant part in the governing of the country, hence religion influcing voting issues. In otherwords, the right to vote or have direct influence on the system is prerequisite to his claim.

I was referring to political views, not votes necessarily. On political issues.
Like I explained, for us abortion is not a political issue, or  a politicized issue, and outside the paramaters of schools of Law, it's not up for debate.

I guess it depends on how we define "political". If we want to extend it indefinately, then yea sure. What I mean by political issues is things like foreign policy, type of government they like...etc. Not strictly legal issues that for us are not politicized. That doesn't mean they can't be flexible, but it's within the confines of Schools of Law, not parties.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
You can't say it's a legal issue but not a political one. Who makes laws? The politicians, thus, it's a political issue. Just because a particular law is not largely contested doesn't mean it isn't political.

The politicians use laws approved by Schools of Law, in their respective countries, when it comes to laws such as abortion, marriage...etc.

I am talking about stricly political issues like form of government, foreign policy...etc.
If you want to extend the definition of political, then fine. I am talking about a different thing, whether you want to call it political or not is not the issue.

Whether or not you operate with that supposition that it poses health risks to the woman in all cases doesn't change the fact that it does.

That it might. When it's clear or reasonably clear with medical validation case by case, then we can act.

Of course he can't. The woman is the one who carries the child to term. If a woman wants to have an abortion it is likely she didn't intend to get pregnant in the first place. So I guess depending on where you live having a child is a commitment and a responsibility that can be forced on a woman from the man. You can't say she made the choice when she chose to have sex, because that's presuming she should not have the choice to have an abortion.

If she didn't want the child in the first place, she can prevent pregnancy right after.
That's acceptable.

It is the issue I'm discussing, which is how much religion affects political beliefs in the middle east. And here you are defending laws based on religious doctrine.

Well that's not the issue I am discussing.
My definition of political beliefs does not emcompass what you are saying.

Strictly because laws on issues like this are strictly the domain of Schools of Law and not political parties.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:42 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I guess it depends on how we define "political". If we want to extend it indefinately, then yea sure. What I mean by political issues is things like foreign policy, type of government they like...etc. Not strictly legal issues that for us are not politicized. That doesn't mean they can't be flexible, but it's within the confines of Schools of Law, not parties.  

I guess I'm just having trouble following where you're going with that. Things like foreign policy and type of government largely don't pertain to religion at all, and thus are not affected.

Social issues with religious implications like drugs, alcohol, gambling, gay rights and prostitution certain can (and are) affected by religious beliefs. In the us these are all hotly debated political issues because there's a large push from the left to get the government out of the business of forcing religion and morality. And then the religious right is fighting tooth and nail for the US government to force "traditional values" on its people. Many of these hotly debated topics aren't even being considered in many ME contries. Some people are just fighting for the right to play rock music.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
I guess I'm just having trouble following where you're going with that. Things like foreign policy and type of government largely don't pertain to religion at all, and thus are not affected.

Well apparently religious beliefs does influence views on foreign policy in the USA more than the Mid East. According to Dr. Rex Brynen anyways.
My initial argument is that corrolation between religious views and political views in the ME is weak, because some claim otherwise.

And what you listed are not up for debate, except in Schools of Law and that's fine by me.

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
I guess I'm just having trouble following where you're going with that. Things like foreign policy and type of government largely don't pertain to religion at all, and thus are not affected.

Well apparently religious beliefs does influence views on foreign policy in the USA more than the Mid East. According to Dr. Rex Brynen anyways.
My initial argument is that corrolation between religious views and political views in the ME is weak, because some claim otherwise.

And what you listed are not up for debate, except in Schools of Law and that's fine by me.

I'm willing to hear Dr. Rex's argument, but from my observations I disagree. At least, religion doesn't have a direct affect. Generally speaking (and with many exceptions) staunch Christians tend to vote Republican. This is largely due to the social issues I mentioned before - being against equality for gays, against abortion rights, etc. But then, as a biproduct of being aligned with the right they also tend to be on board with the rest of the Republican platform.

In the end the meat and potatoes of their alegiance lies in government enforcement of their religious-based morality.

[KnightofPhoenix]

It involves issues that are too controversial to talk about here. But it's not really that important anyways. The gist of the argument that spawned all this is that people are more susceptible to base their political views on feelings, beliefs and religion rather than on a practical matters. It's no different in the Mid-East, it may in fact be worse. Just that the correlation between religiosity and this in the ME is weak (not non-existent).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

And just to throw some on topicness into this discusion, here's some Loghain Awesomeness.







Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Yes, like we were saying, when stirring up a nation for some great policy change, war, or undertaking, appealing to the emotions, mainly fear and anger, are the most effective means of rallying a population to your cause.



Almost every successful leader in history has employed this tactic.

[Addai]

Young Loghain

[Addai]

link



So nice to see new fanart popping up still.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:26 .

[Addai]

No comment!!!


link

[KnightofPhoenix]

...is that a wyvern in her..area?

[Addai]

I think it might be. lol I thought you guys would get a kick out of that, since you're always accusing us of wanting to create pyjama parties in here.

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai67 wrote...

I think it might be. lol I thought you guys would get a kick out of that, since you're always accusing us of wanting to create pyjama parties in here.

Personally I don't approach the matter of sex so casually, nor do I like it when others do or it is portrayed in games as such.

That is is my biggest reason why I hate romance in most video games, because it is inn such a casual manner. I hated that I could just give Morrigan a few gifts then I could kiss her before even entering Lothering ( which really killed the rest of her romance for me )! I dare not mention how I viewed Leliana ( and still view her ) or Zevran (even though the relationship does really become very deep I still feel the way it starts is very poor taste ). It also made me hate Jacob, Ass Face ( Miranda ) and Jack in ME2.

For this reason ( and I know I will REALLY regret this ) it is why I liked the Alistair romance, because it takes time to build! Same with Tali in ME2 as well as Kaidan/Ashley/Liara in ME1.

[Sarah1281]

I dare not mention how I viewed Leliana ( and still view her )

Is this because of her past behavior? Because her romance in-game takes just as long as Alistair's to build.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Agreed that the gift system in DA: is so so.

I usually have to keep the Morrigan romance artificially long and rarely give gifts, to enjoy it.

[Costin_Razvan]

Is this because of her past behavior? Because her romance in-game takes just as long as Alistair's to build.

That depends on one of your first conversations with her ( if you take the wrong path then yes it is long, if not then not so much ).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Agreed that the gift system in DA: is so so.
I usually have to keep the Morrigan romance artificially long and rarely give gifts, to enjoy it.

I do the same with Alistair, mainly because his approval can shoot up very quickly without gifts, given certain descisions earlyer in game. I like to stretch it out and let it build gradually, usually consumating it around the third or fourth treaty quest. It's much more natural that way, and fits his character better.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I think it might be. lol I thought you guys would get a kick out of that, since you're always accusing us of wanting to create pyjama parties in here.

Personally I don't approach the matter of sex so casually, nor do I like it when others do or it is portrayed in games as such.

But you must realize others don't share your priorities.  We're all renting space here.

I'm quite traditional in my own life but with literature and games don't take things as seriously because I see it as exploring the human psyche.  As for DA, all of the romances had depth to them and since they are controlled by the player, it's how you make them.  I had a PC who romanced Zevran and as I roleplayed it, she was inexperienced due to early trauma (pretty elf girl, you know the deal).  She slept with Zevran for the first time after they confronted Taliesin and he told her he would go to the Black City for her.  (And shortly afterward Wynne lectured her about being a sl*t... I hate that woman soooo much<_<).  So there was no promiscuity at all and in fact I found it quite touching to imagine Zevran finding love in sex while my PC found sex in love.

[Giggles_Manically]

AH Wynne.



With the restored Blood Mage confrontation, and while playing a mage romancing Zevran...

Wow just wow not even Billy Graham is that preachy or self righteous.

[Zjarcal]

I see that for a few seconds there were some Loghain pics... I want to join in!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

This thread has just been getting overwhelmed with awesomeness in the past two days!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Loghain deflecting a lighting bolt with his sword??

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 janvier 2011 - 02:49 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain deflecting a lighting bolt with his sword??

No. Deflecting it with his steely blue eyes and piericing gaze.