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[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...
It was only Loghain's impression that Cailan was going to go after Celene? It's not supported anywhere, correct?

The letters are the only thing you know about a potential alliance, and you're left to make assumptions about what the alliance meant. Although, I will say that my first runthrough of RtO was with Wynne and Alistair and even I thought it was a reference to marriage.

They might but I can't see it being marriage to Celene. It's a horrible idea for Ferelden and she's even older than Anora so no babies that way. I could see Cailan marrying another Orlesian noblewoman if he could be convinced to put Anora aside.

It would not explain why Celene is writing in such an informal tone (which is specifiec and highlighted). If she is arranging Cailan to get married to an Orlesian noblewoman, then why does she have to be informal and ignore all protocol that should be observed between two reigning monarchs?

And of course, it's a horrible idea. And it sounds exactly like something Cailan would do, just to be called Emperor.

[Sarah1281]

Why? Because they'd been exchanging a lot of letters and were on pretty friendly terms. Cailan seemed all for getting people to be casual around him...unless Loghain is acting like he's in charge in which case he's all "You will remember who is King."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why? Because they'd been exchanging a lot of letters and were on pretty friendly terms. Cailan seemed all for getting people to be casual around him...unless Loghain is acting like he's in charge in which case he's all "You will remember who is King."

Kings and Queens never talk like this, even on friendly terms. I've actually read medieval era letters. Regardless of what Cailan talks like, Celene comes from a country that does not operate like Ferelden and where I do not think an Empress can afford to be friendly.
The letter was clear, the tone was uncharacteristic, which is a sign that something is not normal here.

EDIT: not to mention the fact that there is no mention at all of some noblewoman Cailan wants to marry and the letter was clear that she and Cailan were going to discuss it further in person once she arrives. I see no mention of a third party.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 septembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[CalJones]

Hmm I'm not sure that would be how one would address the Empress of Orlais if one is not extremely friendly with her.

[Whailor]

I don't care who he was, only what he became. Loghain may have been a great hero and what not but it matters little to my char as he wasn't even born at that time. My char was pretty much born, like, 10 years after the war with Orlais ended so all that stuff from that time is just that for him, a story. History at best. My char doesn't initially hate him, though neither love him since he doesn't know him. But as the game unfolds, all what my char sees is a traitor. Someone who wanted power and didn't stop at anything to get it. He didn't just kill Cailan, Grey Wardens and a whole load of Ferelden people in that battle he ran from, he did more. He was planning this for a while - do you really think that Arl Howe would have just went and attack Couslands if he didn't have a strong backing, in form of Loghain? Arl Eamon never made it to Ostagar, because Loghain had him poisoned a while before the fight already. And so on.



So for my char he became from "such and such lord in the court I don't really know" to "traitor and murderer" very fast. And thus he also, always, receives the traitors punishment. And his daughter gets banished as well, she's not a traitor (yet) like her father but she shows signs, ready to play any powergames to get power to herself, even against her own father. One snake lost it's head, don't need another on the throne.



Can't say much about the books and what not, I haven't read them. To me it's a game and all the data and lore I want about it I get from the game and the official site, I don't care much about other additional lore not tied directly to the game I play. In the game Loghain has a central role but he's not that "deep" person for me, just a conspirator and a traitor and only reasoning seems to be either madness or a groundless paranoia bordering madness. And lust for power. Maybe he hoped to become the king instead of Maric all the time but his peasant past didn't allow him to get that high and now he decided to finally take that step. Whatever, he's dead.

[phaonica]

10 years previous is hardly ancient history, especially when you're talking about the end of a 70-90(?) year hostile occupation. meh

Celene + Cailan
by *ladywinde

Modifié par phaonica, 01 septembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why? Because they'd been exchanging a lot of letters and were on pretty friendly terms. Cailan seemed all for getting people to be casual around him...unless Loghain is acting like he's in charge in which case he's all "You will remember who is King."

Kings and Queens never talk like this, even on friendly terms. I've actually read medieval era letters. Regardless of what Cailan talks like, Celene comes from a country that does not operate like Ferelden and where I do not think an Empress can afford to be friendly.
The letter was clear, the tone was uncharacteristic, which is a sign that something is not normal here.

EDIT: not to mention the fact that there is no mention at all of some noblewoman Cailan wants to marry and the letter was clear that she and Cailan were going to discuss it further in person once she arrives. I see no mention of a third party.

True, but the letter doesn't specifically mention marriage either. It just says a more permanent alliance.

[Sarah1281]

So for my char he became from "such and such lord in the court I don't really know" to "traitor and murderer" very fast.

A national hero of a war of indepence isn't going to become anonymous that quickly. EVERYONE knows him.

Maybe he hoped to become the king instead of Maric all the time but his peasant past didn't allow him to get that high and now he decided to finally take that step. Whatever, he's dead.

He didn't even really want a teynir, let alone a country.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 True, but the letter doesn't specifically mention marriage either. It just says a more permanent alliance.

It doesn't explicitly. But I took the letter in context with the other 2. You had one letter between Cailan and Celene discussing relations between the two countries (formal letters like they should be). You had one letter from Eamon telling Cailan to leave Anora and marry someone else. And the third letter with Cailan and Celene writing in an "uncharacteristically familiar tone" discussing a "permanent alliance", a discussion which will continue when she arrives in Ferelden.

I interpretted it as implicitly mentioning marriage. 
Regardless of what Cailan, or rather Celene was thinking, such letters would make me very cautious of Orlais.  

[CalJones]

Well, Whailor, you obviously haven't looked into the character and it sounds as though you don't care to, so I fail to see why you bother to post in this thread.

If you are genuinely interested to understand the character more from the game, then try recruiting him in another run and talk to him (as in properly, rather than just picking the most hostile options). Then feel free to come back and join the discussion.

[CalJones]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It doesn't explicitly. But I took the letter in context with the other 2. You had one letter between Cailan and Celene discussing relations between the two countries (formal letters like they should be). You had one letter from Eamon telling Cailan to leave Anora and marry someone else. And the third letter with Cailan and Celene writing in an "uncharacteristically familiar tone" discussing a "permanent alliance", a discussion which will continue when she arrives in Ferelden.

I interpretted it as implicitly mentioning marriage. 
Regardless of what Cailan, or rather Celene was thinking, such letters would make me very cautious of Orlais.  

Agreed. I made me reevaluate Cailan's death somewhat. Prior to this he'd been a rather idealistic and foolish young man whose own exuberance had been the death of him. After, a rather idealistic and foolish but dangerous young man who needed to die.

[Addai]

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...
I'm questioning this because of how sympathetic Eamon seems to be towards Orlais, marrying an Orlesian even when it supposedly caused problems with Maric (according to Alistair),  and especially Eamon's letters to Cailan encouraging closer relations with Orlais. Does this strike anyone else as odd? Now I understand that marrying an Orlesian woman in and of itself doesn't have to mean anything, but it can - and taken together with his letters to Cailan, well, it just makes me wonder.  Rowan, Maric and Loghain sacrificed everything to free Ferelden...why is Eamon so keen for an alliance, I wonder?

Maric was also planning to cement diplomatic relations with Orlais.  Much of the nobility seems to feel it's time to move on and that they can safely do so.  Mama Cousland talks very casually about being in Orlais and people mistaking Bryce for the king, etc.  These are all people who fought in the rebellion.

Celene strikes me as the obsequious type.  Just look at how she publicly praised Anora.  I could see her taking Cailan's informal manner as liberality and she thinking it means something it doesn't, or else pretending as if they are closer than they are.  I have no doubt she's playing her own game.  We don't know what Cailan's game was, however, or how skillfully he was playing it.  Just consider this, Loghain was in Ostagar and Eamon wasn't.  If Cailan was really listening to Eamon so closely, he would have wanted him by his side.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

Maric was also planning to cement diplomatic relations with Orlais. 

I think it's a leap to say "cement". Maric says he invited the Empress to meet with him. That's it.

Celene strikes me as the obsequious type. Just look at how she publicly praised Anora. 

 
It could be obsequiousness or it could be flattery. She's supposedly brilliant and became empress somehow despite being like forth or fifth in line. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea, "cement" is the wrong word. I would say "normalise", as in establish normal diplomatic relations with Orlais. which is something I don't think Loghain is against. And whilke relations seemingly did become normal between the two countries, there was still a large amount of rightful distrust, like when we play the Orlesian Warden.

Celene praised Anora, sure. She also insulted Ferleden and accused them of being barbarians.

And sorry, I loled at the idea of Cailan playing games with Celene. He was easily controlled by Anora, what could he possibly do with someone like Celene.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And sorry, I loled at the idea of Cailan playing games with Celene. He was easily controlled by Anora, what could he possibly do with someone like Celene.

You have no idea that he was "controlled" by Anora besides her self-promotion.  And since the country fell apart without him...

But being underestimated and taken for a pretty boy is a Theirin trademark. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Actually, it's what Eamon said.

Cailan is nothing more than what his name literally means. A child.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And sorry, I loled at the idea of Cailan playing games with Celene. He was easily controlled by Anora, what could he possibly do with someone like Celene.

You have no idea that he was "controlled" by Anora besides her self-promotion.  And since the country fell apart without him...

But being underestimated and taken for a pretty boy is a Theirin trademark. 

The country didn't fall apart because he died, it fell apart because of the circumstances of his death.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Actually, it's what Eamon said.
Cailan is nothing more than what his name literally means. A child.

Eamon said she was always a step ahead of him, but he was also talking about them as children rather than monarchs.   In her professional capacity he calls Anora a "capable administrator."  That's what you might call a good secretary.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Actually, it's what Eamon said.
Cailan is nothing more than what his name literally means. A child.

Eamon said she was always a step ahead of him, but he was also talking about them as children rather than monarchs.   In her professional capacity he calls Anora a "capable administrator."  That's what you might call a good secretary.

He only says that about her (repeatedly) because he's trying to minimize her role in Cailan's reign as he doesn't want her to keep the throne and he's pulling for Alistair.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Actually, it's what Eamon said.
Cailan is nothing more than what his name literally means. A child.

Eamon said she was always a step ahead of him, but he was also talking about them as children rather than monarchs.   In her professional capacity he calls Anora a "capable administrator."  That's what you might call a good secretary.

Eum no, that's what you call the person who runs the country. And he said she was two steps ahead of him. In otherwords, smarter. In addition to him saying something like Cailan being like a ring on her finger or something like that.  

But we already had this discussion before, so I won't get into that again.  
 

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Actually, it's what Eamon said.
Cailan is nothing more than what his name literally means. A child.

Eamon said she was always a step ahead of him, but he was also talking about them as children rather than monarchs.   In her professional capacity he calls Anora a "capable administrator."  That's what you might call a good secretary.

In the business world, secretaries are called administrative assistents. Administrators are the leaders: the deans of colleges, CEO's of companies, the President of the United States. Secretaries just do the supporting paperwork.

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In the business world, secretaries are called administrative assistents. Administrators are the leaders: the deans of colleges, CEO's of companies, the President of the United States. Secretaries just do the supporting paperwork.

Tell my CEO that he's the administrator of the company and see how well it goes over.  LOL

But, to paraphrase Alistair, Loghain and Anora think they're the only ones who can run the country.  KoP wouldn't be the fanboy he is if he didn't agree with them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
But, to paraphrase Alistair, Loghain and Anora think they're the only ones who can run the country.  KoP wouldn't be the fanboy he is if he didn't agree with them.

Loghain, no. I have said countless times that I do not consider him to be a good leader, administrator and politician. Anora, she definately can run the country and secure its future. Her epilogue speaks for itself.

Now if you are going to start calling others "fanboys", I suggest we end the discussion now.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:15 .

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In the business world, secretaries are called administrative assistents. Administrators are the leaders: the deans of colleges, CEO's of companies, the President of the United States. Secretaries just do the supporting paperwork.

Tell my CEO that he's the administrator of the company and see how well it goes over.  LOL

But, to paraphrase Alistair, Loghain and Anora think they're the only ones who can run the country.  KoP wouldn't be the fanboy he is if he didn't agree with them.

A Chief Executive Officer (CEO) or Chief Executive is the highest-ranking corporate officer (executive) or administrator in charge of total management of an organization. An individual appointed as CEO of a corporation, company, organization, or agency reports to the board of directors.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Actually, it's what Eamon said.
Cailan is nothing more than what his name literally means. A child.

Eamon said she was always a step ahead of him, but he was also talking about them as children rather than monarchs.   In her professional capacity he calls Anora a "capable administrator."  That's what you might call a good secretary.

Eum no, that's what you call the person who runs the country. And he said she was two steps ahead of him. In otherwords, smarter. In addition to him saying something like Cailan being like a ring on her finger or something like that.  

But we already had this discussion before, so I won't get into that again.  
 

Eamon also predicted, quite accurately, that Cailan's death would plunge Ferelden into chaos.   He understood who was really ruling and who was chasing with the paperwork.  Both are important, but that Anora was "controlling" things is hardly the case.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:17 .