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[CalJones]

Morwen - nope. He encountered the big spiders in Ortan Thaig, and the Legion of the Dead (who ended up helping him and Maric against the Orlesians at Gwaren). No broodmothers though.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

CalJones wrote...

Morwen - nope. He encountered the big spiders in Ortan Thaig, and the Legion of the Dead (who ended up helping him and Maric against the Orlesians at Gwaren). No broodmothers though.

Thanks. I wasn't planning on "introducing" him to the spiders or the Legion (who are all on the surface by now anyway, having joined the Mage's Dwarf army), but he will be encountering that dead Broodmother in Chapter 4. Just wasn't sure if it was going to be a shock for him or not.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 15 février 2011 - 06:15 .

[CalJones]

I don't know about a shock - he's pretty stoic - but I think he'd be pretty horrified, what with darkspawn rape conotations (going by Hespith's poem).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
what do you suspect would have happened to the 1st French Empire?

Would it have fallen during Napoleon's life. Unlikely, the man was practically worshiped in his country, he had an iron grip on the military and press.

Would the French Empire had fallen after his death? One needs to look at this at an internal level ( which I count as only in France itself ) and then at an external one ( where I count the Confederation of the Rhine, Spain, Kingdom of Italy, etc. ).

On the external I somehow doubt it would have survived without a leader at least half as capable as Napoleon himself ( and Napoleon III most certainly wasn't such a person, though one will never know about Napoleon I's sons ). On an internal level....not bloody likely in my opinion that it would have fallen.

Napoleon's regime was heavily tied to external factors. So long as he won, he was unchallenged. Once he began losing, his regime started to colapse and his men abandon him.

Even had he defeated the British and managed to create a puppet kingdom, sustaining such an empire would have been a huge drain on Frane's ressources and manpower. France was not equipped to handle this, Spain alone was a pain in the ass. I would argue that the circmstances in Europe at the time made continental imperialism virtually impossible. Circumstances like rising nationalism. People were more and more identifying  with a nation, they were not going to accept what they will rightfully see as French occupation. Add to that that his policy of putting relatives on thrones they had no idea about, but more importantly on people who were becoming increasingly nationalistic. 

His empire was unsustainable in the long run. It would have been either defeated, or would have drained him and France. In either case, it would have resulted in internal instability. When he was in Spain, some of his own family conspired against him. Imagine what would happen if he is constantly on campaigns trying to put down rebellions. Maybe Napoleon could have held it off until his death, and that would have amazed me. But like you said, that probably would not have lasted after his death.

And that would have affected the regime internally. Yes the French loved him, when he was winning. After Leipzig, they didn't love him anymore. They only started loving him again because the British and Taleyrand were uncharacteriscally stupid and put a Bourbon on the throne (an incompetent one at that), expecting the French to accept that. Napoleon's regime, internally, was very much an anti-regime. As in its legitimacy was based on it not being a monarchy, nor an unstable republic, more so than on its own internal merits. The French wanted order and Napoleon gave it to them. But people have a short memory span.

Now I do not doubt that Napoleon could have held ground internally, except if he was forcefully removed by foreign powers. But I doubt his descendents, especially if they had to inherit a disfunctional empire, would have managed. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 février 2011 - 07:36 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

CalJones wrote...
I don't know about a shock - he's pretty stoic - but I think he'd be pretty horrified, what with darkspawn rape conotations (going by Hespith's poem).

Yes, I suppose "shock" is the wrong word, but horrified not only after he hears the explanation but because that dead Broodmother's been there a while, and she was pretty horrific to begin with. . .

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 15 février 2011 - 07:43 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Maybe Napoleon could have held it off until his death, and that would have amazed me. But like you said, that probably would not have lasted after his death

I don't think it's much a stretch to think he could have held it together. Many things related to his unpopularity where due to the British directly or indirectly. The British sponsored rebels, blockaded his trade, and the Continental Blockade made things much worse then they were.

Remove Britain from the field, and you remove a whole lot of issues on the external plan ( which is really what were are arguing about ).

Now if Napoleon had won in Russia talk of rebelling against in the rest of Europe would have been decreased, not completely since you still have a mess of economic problems due to Britain but it would been a huge boost to Napoleon's prestige.

While he was not that well liked by many Italians, Germans and especially Spanish it should be noted he had very loyal allies as well. The Polish and the Danes. The Danes really hated the British because the latter had sunk their fleet while the Poles had been given an actual state by him, and if Napoleon had given them independence after Russia's submission to the French Empire then he would have gained a very strong ally in them ( not that Poniatowski wasn't one of the most loyal men to Napoleon already anyway ).

What kept Napoleon from crushing the Spaniards was the eastern front, without it well...

Imagine having around 200-300 thousand troops from his joining the already 100.000 strong troops already in Spain. Granted the Spanish where by all intents and purposes crazed as hell to protect their independence and Wellington had a strong army and some of the strongest defensive positions in Gibraltar and Portugal, just simply not that strong to withstand Napoleon himself.

Then it would have come down to a battle on sea. The Brits were good and they knew it but even they were worried about the sheer numbers Napoleon was planning to throw at them in terms of ships, and without Nelson the situation would have been dire indeed, and once he landed in Britain then his tactic of living off the land would have worked quite well.

Without Britain France would have been able to sustain a large enough army to occupy Britain ( since it would have been able to trade on sea), Spain, Portugal and Eastern Europe while he also would have had Poland and Denmark to aid him in this.

As for Napoleon's son succeding...eh well Austria would have been calmed down since the boy was of Austrian Royal Blood, and there would still have been people like d'Avout, Massena, Murat, MacDonald, Saint-Cyr to protect the Empire from either Prussia or Russia rising against it ( Britain and Spain being occupied still ).  The isuse would have been however within the Bonaparte family itself...and that was REALLY the issue since they all wanted personal power and all of them ( except Paoletta and perhaps Lucien ) would have tried to gain it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 février 2011 - 09:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea, the Bonaparte family was pretty disfunctional.

I think the circumstance of the time favored economic hegemony (Britain was the best suited for that, till WW!) rather than imperialist conquests. But who knows, maybe Napoleon could have pulled it off in his own life time, I doubt it would have lasted long, but eh. What ifs can be limitless.

[CalJones]

The smell would be beyond disgusting, I expect (@ Morwen).

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

The smell would be beyond disgusting, I expect (@ Morwen).

So says Sigrun ("now there is a foulness that can't be described").  Coming from someone who practically lives in the Deep Roads and grew up in Dust Town.. yeah.

So I imagine Loghain would be as WTF as the rest of us.

Hm, maybe I will be more motivated on my Amell character if I rush through to the LM and try to get Loghain in the party before doing all the random side quests.  It's kind of a story-bender to bring him on "Loghain's Push" though.  lol

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...

The smell would be beyond disgusting, I expect (@ Morwen).

So says Sigrun ("now there is a foulness that can't be described").  Coming from someone who practically lives in the Deep Roads and grew up in Dust Town.. yeah.

So I imagine Loghain would be as WTF as the rest of us.

Hm, maybe I will be more motivated on my Amell character if I rush through to the LM and try to get Loghain in the party before doing all the random side quests.  It's kind of a story-bender to bring him on "Loghain's Push" though.  lol

Or stealing *his* crown..........What's the deal with that crown anyway?:happy:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Or stealing *his* crown..........What's the deal with that crown anyway?:happy:

What's the deal with the "messenger" who insists that Loghain is king?

I mean I know Ferelden is one step away from barbarity, but even they can't be that diplomatically incompetent as to not even know that Orzammar is a sovereign nation that can't be bullied into submission, while you're trying to bully the bannorn at the same time.

Sigh
If Loghain was the one who personally appointted that guy as his messenger, then epic facepalm.
Wouldn't surprise me too much, as the dude sounded like a soldier more than anything else.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 février 2011 - 02:00 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Or stealing *his* crown..........What's the deal with that crown anyway?:happy:

What's the deal with the "messenger" who insists that Loghain is king?

I mean I know Ferelden is one step away from barbarity, but even they can't be that diplomatically incompetent as to not even know that Orzammar is a sovereign nation that can't be bullied into submission, while you're trying to bully the bannorn at the same time.

Sigh
If Loghain was the one who personally appointted that guy as his messenger, then epic facepalm.
Wouldn't surprise me too much, as the dude sounded like a soldier more than anything else.

Agreed. I mean, I am no trained diplomat or anything.... but the old saying about catching more flies with honey etc. applies. Esp. if you want the allegiance of someone so desperately!

[Joy Divison]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Or stealing *his* crown..........What's the deal with that crown anyway?:happy:

What's the deal with the "messenger" who insists that Loghain is king?

I mean I know Ferelden is one step away from barbarity, but even they can't be that diplomatically incompetent as to not even know that Orzammar is a sovereign nation that can't be bullied into submission, while you're trying to bully the bannorn at the same time.

Sigh
If Loghain was the one who personally appointted that guy as his messenger, then epic facepalm.
Wouldn't surprise me too much, as the dude sounded like a soldier more than anything else.

The messenger was a tool who clearly attached far too much importance on himself and thus exagerrated the opulance of the man who sent him (i.e. Loghain) to conceal the reality that he is a glorifed mailman.

I kill him *every* time.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Or stealing *his* crown..........What's the deal with that crown anyway?:happy:

What's the deal with the "messenger" who insists that Loghain is king?

I mean I know Ferelden is one step away from barbarity, but even they can't be that diplomatically incompetent as to not even know that Orzammar is a sovereign nation that can't be bullied into submission, while you're trying to bully the bannorn at the same time.

Sigh
If Loghain was the one who personally appointted that guy as his messenger, then epic facepalm.
Wouldn't surprise me too much, as the dude sounded like a soldier more than anything else.

Yeah, the crown seemed way weird to me. It seems OOC for Loghain to (a) be that presumptuous and ( openly defy his daughter like that. I smell a Howe.

And the "King Loghain" messenger always, always seemed like a pompous, self-important ass to me. Again, I never believed for a second that Loghain had told that guy to go forth and start throwing "King Loghain"s at everybody. Even if he did aspire to be king --which I doubt-- he would have known that his position was nowhere near solid enough to be calling himself that, and doing so would only provoke further hostility from the Banns.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

Hm, maybe I will be more motivated on my Amell character if I rush through to the LM and try to get Loghain in the party before doing all the random side quests.  It's kind of a story-bender to bring him on "Loghain's Push" though.  lol

In my Mage playthrough I left so much stuff undone pre-Landsmeet just because of Loghain. I had conceived of the Mage character fairly early in my DA:O-playing career as the one who would recruit him. At that time I knew that I would have at least one of my PCs recruit Loghain just for the experience but I didn't know how much I would or wouldn't like him, so I planned my Mage on the possibility that this may be my one and only time with Loghain as a companion. Therefore, I blazed through all the pre-Landsmeet stuff and left unexplored areas in every point on the map, plus RtO, Cadash Thaig, Flemeth, the High Dragon, the warehouse full of maleficarum, the orphanage, and Gaxkang. Some sidequests have to be finished pre-Landsmeet if Redcliffe is involved, of course, and I couldn't wait to do Soldier's Peak because I needed the Party Chest, but otherwise I dragged Loghain everywhere. It was a little ridiculous and not all of the Loghain/Amell Ferelden Tour stops will make it into my fic, but I had fun. 

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 16 février 2011 - 05:08 .

[CalJones]

I must admit I tend not to do "Loghain's Push" and the crown quest in my playthroughs. The first because, well, it's an underwhelming nothing of a battle, and I just can't think of an in character reason to go interfere with it, and the latter because, well, it's just a dumb quest that doesn't fit my idea of Loghain's character.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

My CE was my only Warden to do the crown quest and that was because she was a kleptomaniac who stole from absolutely everybody and didn't need any kind of a reason. She felt badly after executing Loghain, however, and wound up not selling the crown. She kept it in her backpack as a reminder.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 16 février 2011 - 06:09 .

[CalJones]

Yeah I should say that I've done both, obviously, but not on the later or canon playthroughs.

[JedTed]

I haven't read the books but i liken Loghain somewhat to Saren from ME1.  They are both widely respected individuals who, in the past, have done some very honorable things yet recent events cause them to betray their own moral code.  The difference here is that atleast in the beginning of DA:O Loghain doesn't seem like such a bad guy(untill he abandons the king ofcorse).

Saren can also have a moment of redemption similar to Loghain in the end of the game.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

King Loghain.....yeah. I mean, I'd write that messanger guy off as a pompous blind devotee who is souping up Loghain's status on his own time. But the "crown" you steal from Loghain's seneschal...Loghain never struck me as the type to actually bother with the pomp and ceremony of office, and even if he had declared himself king, I can't see him even bothering with a crown, probably seeing such froo-fraw as a waste of time and resources.



Probably a bit of lazy writing, unless the writers were trying to say something. Lazy writing though, I think, since once you get Loggy and do that quest, he doesn't react at all. Nor does he react to alot of things in game that you'd think he might.

[Izaeus]

JedTed wrote...

I haven't read the books but i liken Loghain somewhat to Saren from ME1.  They are both widely respected individuals who, in the past, have done some very honorable things yet recent events cause them to betray their own moral code.  The difference here is that atleast in the beginning of DA:O Loghain doesn't seem like such a bad guy(untill he abandons the king ofcorse).

Saren can also have a moment of redemption similar to Loghain in the end of the game.

Saren was the epitome of Ruthless... some might even go so far as calling him evil... Even before Sovereign got ahold of him he would take every chance he could to off a human (only if he could get away with it mind you, even Spectres can't go off murdering random people or they'll become rogue... which is a bad idea unless you have some serious back up.)

[CalJones]

There are parallels between Loghain and Saren in so far as both are more relatable characters deputising for a less relatable "big bad" (Archdemon and Reapers respectively), and both do ruthless things for what they mistakenly see as the greater good. However, Saren is so focussed on the real threat that he is selling out his own people (and not only the turians and other council races, but every other sentient species) to the Reapers, whereas Loghain is fighting hard for independence to the extent that he is ignoring the real threat. A better parallel would be if Loghain were betraying Fereldan to the Orlesians because he genuinely believed that Fereldan was doomed if it didn't submit, and slavery/vassalage was better than exctinction. In fact he is doing the opposite.

So yes, there are parallels, but also key differences.

[Addai]

Rather nice new fanart


link

[KnightofPhoenix]

Revive!

So I finally decided to continue my Arcturus Cousland canon playthrough (3rd time) that I put on hold for a while. I saved before the Landsmeet. I have to say, I love how Loghain shouts "Aaah!" before he describes us as puppeteers lol

Despite pausing for 2 months (and despite it feeling rushed), the Landsmeet still manages to feel slightly epic (I blame Simon T.). And the duel was awesome, especially if you put a lot of RPing into it. 







"New  vs Old" captions would be appropriate.
"The Future vs The Past" would be even better. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 février 2011 - 12:26 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

@KoP: Look at you with the screenshots now!

Just that faceoff (screenie #1) is always epic. I suppose one of these days I should choose another champion besides my PC to fight him, just for the experience, but I can't think of a good RP reason why I'd ever do that.

Modifié par Morwen Eledhwen, 18 février 2011 - 12:29 .