12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I forget that he also is a pol sci teacher too.

Makes perfect sense.
Political science and history buffs are unlikely to prefer Harrowmont and Alistair over Bhelen and Anora (I am tempted to say that it's the people who know what they are talking about).

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

He was interested in the game and has actually pre-ordered DA2 as of now.
He said he was almost tempted to do a little write up about what it would be like to read a text on it from a scholar.

There was a poster in the Community Creations forum asking for submissions to help her with a thesis on romance in DAO.  So he's not the only one interested in an academic angle.

I could see Alistair carrying out some iconoclasm, but that sort of campaign rarely works unless it's carried out in a totalitarian way which he would never do.  Popular consciousness is stronger than political whitewash.  If Loghain kills the AD, I would say he'll definitely be remembered as a hero.  Otherwise, his reputation is likely tarnished enough that opinions will be mixed and the heroes of the era are remembered as Maric the Savior and the Warden.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I forget that he also is a pol sci teacher too.

Makes perfect sense.
Political science and history buffs are unlikely to prefer Harrowmont and Alistair over Bhelen and Anora (I am tempted to say that it's the people who know what they are talking about).

Yeah, and you know what I would say about that.    Refrain from canonizing your views, let alone enshrining them as the only intelligent approach.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I said unlikely, I didn't say necessarily. And I stand by with what I said and I do not feel the need to refrain.

[Giggles_Manically]

I only see Harrowmont and UNHARDENED Alistair as the bad choices for the monarchs.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I only see Harrowmont and UNHARDENED Alistair as the bad choices for the monarchs.

Hardened Alistair is not a bad choice, but I don't see him as a great one either. Average at best (mediocre can be another word). And if I were to pick him over Anora, I would do so for something irrespective of his own character and skill, and that's his family name and its symbolic value.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 06:24 .

[Glorfindel709]

I agree with Giggles, Hardened Alistair actually learns governance and doesnt let Eamon pull the strings. Harrowmont is a tool and I tend to think of a harrowmont lead Orzammar as a sort of Weimar Republic.

I'm a history and polisci buff who wants to teach one or both subjects, and I dont dislike Alistair and I do dislike Anora. What's that say about me? :-p

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 28 février 2011 - 06:27 .

[Giggles_Manically]

That is mainly why Alistair is on the throne in so many of my games.

A Therin adds legitimacy to the throne by a great deal, and shuts up all the people like Eamon.
Although for some reason I cant harden Alistair on my Dalish run so it looks like he is going to be drunk.
AGAIN.

[Giggles_Manically]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I agree with Giggles, Hardened Alistair actually learns governance and doesnt let Eamon pull the strings. Harrowmont is a tool and I tend to think of a harrowmont lead Orzammar as a sort of Weimar Republic.

I'm a history and polisci buff who wants to teach one or both subjects, and I dont dislike Alistair and I do dislike Anora. What's that say about me? :-p

I think its more that history and poli sci buffs prefer the leadership style of one to another.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I agree with Giggles, Hardened Alistair actually learns governance and doesnt let Eamon pull the strings.

Hardened Alistair still delegates a lot to his chancellor, what's to say he doesn't do the same with Eamon?
And it says he is learning, which is not the same as learned.

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I'm a history and polisci buff who wants to teach one or both subjects, and I dont dislike Alistair and I do dislike Anora. What's that say about me? :-p

What you feel about them is irrlevent, I don't dislike Alsitair either. I am talking about leadership and ruling. 
Nothing in the game, and in the epilogue., even remotely hints at Alistair being a better or equal ruler to Anora, except maybe for things that are not dependent on him (his family name).

If you do think there are hints, I'd love to see the evidence.

And before someone jumps and says otherwise, no I do not think Anora is perfect nor do I think she would be a brilliant ruler.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 06:37 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I said unlikely, I didn't say necessarily. And I stand by with what I said and I do not feel the need to refrain.

You're free to have your perspective, of course, but it's pretty arrogant to imply that it's the intelligent/ informed one, rather than simply how you see matters.  The game writers leave complexity in the game choices, whether you see them that way or not.  But hey, if you realize how obnoxious that sounds and don't care, be my guest.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I think its more that history and poli sci buffs prefer the leadership style of one to another.

And again, that is a generalization.  You're speaking for a lot of people there.

Your professor and a few hardened forumites do not a consensus make.

[/useless topic]

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I think its more that history and poli sci buffs prefer the leadership style of one to another.

And again, that is a generalization.  You're speaking for a lot of people there.

Your professor and a few hardened forumites do not a consensus make.

[/useless topic]

:innocent:
True.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
You're free to have your perspective, of course, but it's pretty arrogant to imply that it's the intelligent/ informed one, rather than simply how you see matters.

I didn't say the. From what I saw here, it's usually the informed and intelligent (who actually provide objective arguments) who do not prefer Harrowmont and Alistair over Bhelen and Anora. Especially Harrowmont vs Bhelen, where the vast majority of thsoe who still argue that Harrowmont is a better ruler are simply delusional.
That is not to say that there aren't any intelligent and informed people who can't argue for Harrowmont and Alistair, I can do it if I so wish because I can see reasons why one woulc pick them. But for the most part, they are more likely to support Bhelen and Anora.

Feel free to call that arrogant if you want. But it's what I have seen. 

[Giggles_Manically]

I agree with KoP around the Bhelen v Harrowmont debate.

Doing the castless kid quest, talking to people, talking with the Shaper, and just learning about Orzamar really was interesting.
Then hearing how Harrowmont supported that tradition?

Gah I wanted to kill that old bugger myself.

[Glorfindel709]

Alistair: Gives up power in areas that he knows he shouldnt be in charge of without aid. He actively seeks the knowledge and opinions of those more knowledgable in an area in order to make the most informed decision. Best evidenced by him asking for you or Eamon to be an advisor/chancellor, and when he gives up leadership.

Anora: Believes that she is the only person who can do the job, offering the previous 5 years of Cailans reign as an example that she ruled the country while Cailan led it. Has plans that include opening a University to allow the growth of education. Is *unable* to do anything to the challenge to her sovereignty made by her father. She practically gave up all powers and got herself kidnapped without so much as a by your leave.

Anora is the more politically savvy choice, but she is by no means the better equipped to lead. At the very least, at least Alistair is willing to have other people advise him on an area that he does not feel as capable as he could be to give him insight and reports so he can possibly make the best decision (for example, allowing an elf onto the council in order to get a better understanding of the needs of a part of his citizenry)

[CalJones]

Your prof sounds pretty cool, Giggles.
Why all the in-fighting on here lately? It's so unnecessary.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
Alistair: Gives up power in areas that he knows he shouldnt be in charge of without aid. He actively seeks the knowledge and opinions of those more knowledgable in an area in order to make the most informed decision. Best evidenced by him asking for you or Eamon to be an advisor/chancellor, and when he gives up leadership.

There is a fine difference between being advised, but still in charge, and between delegating power and being dependent. Unhardened is definately dependent. Hardened also shows signs of depedency with a Warden chancellor, as he delegates a lot.

It's a very dangerous precedent to have two positions of power (in a context of weak  political institutions), but only one of them rules in reality. And to have a king being dependent on his chancellor.

Anora: Believes that she is the only person who can do the job, offering the previous 5 years of Cailans reign as
an example that she ruled the country while Cailan led it.

And she is right. Cailan obviously did not rule.

Has plans that include opening a University to allow the growth of education.

That's a bad thing how?

Is *unable* to do anything to the challenge to her sovereignty made by her father. She practically gave up all powers and got herself kidnapped without so much as a by your leave.

I'd love to see what Alistair could have done if Ferelden's greatest general barged in with his army intact and with an ally who also has his army intact, and decided to make all the shots.

Anora's failure to deal with Loghain alone is evident. But it's easier said than done, to point out failures without thinking about solutions, and what others could do in her position. Do you honestly htink Alistair would have faired better? He might have been louder in opposition, but he would have been either silenced, or eliminated that much quicker.

 (for example, allowing an elf onto the council in order to get a better understanding of the needs of a part of his citizenry)

Which in a removed epilogue slide, ends up in disaster as the bann is assassinated, and in a purge of the Alienage following a riot. 

And I see no evidence that Anora does not listen or seek advice. The fact that she does not give power to her chancellor, does not mean that she doesn't give a damn about his  / her opinion. She is popular amongst the banns, which does hint that she at least listens.

Furthermore, the epilogue with a Cousland says that collaboration is possible. She will not compromise her indepdence. That does not mean she would not listen to informed advice and opinions.

Finally, you forgot more trade, surplus in the treasury, laws to encourage the freeholders...etc. all aimed at strengthening the middle class, which is vital. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 07:18 .

[Persephone]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Persephone wrote...

www.fanfiction.net/s/6087280/11/The_Edge_Of_The_Grey_Enigma Lookie at this! An UPDATE! Oh my!

is right. Poor Alistair --once again his role is as the guy on the sidelines watching while the good stuff happens elsewhere. Nice job on the smut. It's easy to make fun of badly-written smut until you realize how difficult it is to write well. I'm kind of dreading when it's finally my turn.

I feel like such a slacker, taking so long between updates (though Chapter 4 is nearing completion, at last. . .)

Thank you. Now where's your next chapter? I wanna know more about your awesome mage & Loggy! 

[Iosev]

Bioware shapes many of the game's decisions (e.g., Harrowmont vs. Bhelen, Alistair vs. Anora, etc.) so that there isn't a clear choice; if you think one choice is clearly better than the other, than you're unfortunately not thinking enough about the positive and negative consequences associated with either choice (both short-term and long-term). For example, saying Bhelen is the best choice is just as foolish as saying that Harrowmont is the best choice when the truth is, neither are the ideal type of individual that you would want to lead the dwarven people out of their current social condition.

My human grey warden, for instance, chooses Harrowmont, not because he's the better leader, but because he doesn't want to be responsible for any immediate change in dwarven culture. While he disagrees with how Orzammar is currently run, he also feels that it is not his place to reform them (it should be up to the dwarves to reform themselves); his duty as a grey warden is first and foremost to protect everyone from the Blight, not reform other nations. Choosing someone old and traditional like Harrowmont means that I have the temporary stability I need to protect the dwarves from the impending Blight; after the Blight is over, the dwarves can go back to deciding what is best for their people (especially since Harrowmont will likely not rule for long due to his age, as well as the growing inequity between the castes that will likely continue).

Make no mistake, I realize the negative consequences of selecting a traditional leader who isn't seeking change, but at the same time, I also think that accepting negative change just for the sake of change has led many countries to elect some of the most tyrannical leaders in history. Likewise, I'm not going to be arrogant and foolish to believe that my decision is the best one because the truth is no one knows, and only time in Thedas will tell.

Modifié par arcelonious, 28 février 2011 - 08:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

arcelonious wrote...
 For example, saying Bhelen is the best choice is just as foolish as saying that Harrowmont is the best choice when the truth is, neither are the ideal type of individual that you would want to lead the dwarven people out of their current social condition.

Except no one said that Bhelen is the best most ideal choice, but rather as the better choice than Harrowmont.

My human grey warden, for instance, chooses Harrowmont, not because he's the better leader, but because he doesn't want to be responsible for any immediate change in dwarven culture. While he disagrees with how Orzammar is currently run, he also feels that it is not his place to reform them (it should be up to the dwarves to reform themselves);

First of all, your warden doesn't reform anything, it's a dwarf leader who does and who once ruling, doesn't need you at all. Second, there is no immediate break with the past. revolutionnary measures. Bhelen weakens caste restrictions, but he does not abolish the caste system.

As for stability. How ironic that Harrowmont can't deal with the rebellion unless with golems (and who uses them to crush the casteless), while Bhelen deals with the rebellion iwth ease.

 I also think that accepting negative change just for the sake of change has led many countries to elect some of the most tyrannical leaders in history.

Less caste restrictions. More trade. The paralysing oligarchic self-interested assembly removed.
Where is the negative change? Believe it or not many "tyrannical leaders" can and did produce results.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 08:19 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Your teacher is epicly awesome, Giggles! Maybe if more teachers actually at least looked at video games,, at least the more intelligent ones. they could find new ways of sparking interest and debate in historical and political subjects. Or just keeping people awake during lectures, at a minimum.

As far as Anora and Bhelen go: In the case of Bhelen, there is no contest, on so many fronts.At least as far as I'm concerned. He doesn't care about tradition or law, he will get things done, whether his fellow nobles like it or not. He doesn't flich from the less "honorable" tools of state craft. He is very much the stereotypical "low life dirtbag politician", and I love him for it. he will do whatever he must, to bring his nation and people back from the brink, and move them forward to a new era. Harrowmont? Pheh. Guy reminds me of Mike Huckabee. :/

As far as Anora goes, I disagree with KoP. I think she is a brilliant ruler as far as Ferelden goes. She's no Celene, but Celene comes from a different country with different mores and values, different political and cultural institutions. Orlais is an empire. Ferelden is a nation. When compared to all of the kings and queens of Ferelden we have known thus far, Anora tops em all. She is the only one who appears to be looking forward, at bringing Ferelden up to speed with everyone else. Ferelden is not going to be an empire, nor should it attempt to do so. Given that we don't know much about the international situation in Thedas, I think it better they have a leader who is smart and cautious. Ferelden's stability and ability to prosper are far more important than expansion or attempting to play a bigger role in international affairs, at least at this point. It has just survived a devastating Blight and civil war, it needs to concentrate on not only rebuilding, but dealing with rebellious banns and stabilizing the political situation some. Anora takes bold steps on the home front, but cautious, non-threatening steps on the international front.

However, in the case of Alistair (hardened), he actually does a reasonable job. He isn't as forward thinking as Anora, but he is a stabilizing influence. His own personal style of rule might not be as pragmatic as Anora, nor does he have experience, but he does seek to learn. And Alistair would be much better at healing the emotional/social wounds the country, which is just as important as anything. The state of a nation's psyche is just as important as the state of its economy and military. A nation with a broken soul is as doomed as one with a dysfunctional political system, and I think Alistair would be better than Anora on that front.

Of course, Alistair's main weaknesses are his naievite and lack of experience and knowledge in politics. Still, I think he is superior to both his father and his brother in a couple of ways. Unlike his father, he is not led as much by his dick or his heart, in terms of love interest. Though many people have thrown hissy fits because Alistair dumped their Warden, it was actually a good call for him. His father was actually planning on marrying his Orlesian elven bimbo and making her queen, at least Alistair realizes that despite his own wishes, marrying an elf, dwarf, or mage would be a terrible idea on many fronts. And of course, he has way more sense than Cailan ever did.

Generally, though, I prefer Anora, and of course, on of the reasons I do is because I like Alistair, and like to see a happy ending for him, which in my opinion, is one where he remains as a Warden. And this decision is made easier by the fact I like and respect Anora as a ruler and leader.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
As far as Anora goes, I disagree with KoP. I think she is a brilliant ruler as far as Ferelden goes. She's no Celene, but Celene comes from a different country with different mores and values, different political and cultural institutions. Orlais is an empire. Ferelden is a nation. When compared to all of the kings and queens of Ferelden we have known thus far, Anora tops em all. She is the only one who appears to be looking forward, at bringing Ferelden up to speed with everyone else. Ferelden is not going to be an empire, nor should it attempt to do so. Given that we don't know much about the international situation in Thedas, I think it better they have a leader who is smart and cautious. Ferelden's stability and ability to prosper are far more important than expansion or attempting to play a bigger role in international affairs, at least at this point. It has just survived a devastating Blight and civil war, it needs to concentrate on not only rebuilding, but dealing with rebellious banns and stabilizing the political situation some. Anora takes bold steps on the home front, but cautious, non-threatening steps on the international front.

Agreed. The one reason why I would hesitate to call her brilliant is her inability (at least in Origins) in controlling the army. It's understandable, who could control the army when Loghain is around, but still. I think she is tryign to remedy this, hence the armor and her presence in Denerim (and according to Loghain, she actually trains with the sword and bow).

I am not expecting actual military genius. Augustus was no brilliant general and barely decent, it was Agrippa the military mind. But there was no doubt that Augustus commanded the loyalty and respect of the army, and not only because of his name (Caesar), but also because of his wise use of money, his control over the clientela and the military reforms he put in place.

Now granted, a lot of this has to do with Ferelden's outdated barbaric system that allows it to be so. So yea, maybe I could consider Anora brilliant, for Ferelden. And agreed on adopting a cautious and moderate approach.  Empires can assume different shapes and forms and if Ferelden can become one (or a hegemon), it will take time and patience.

The state of a nation's psyche is just as important as the state of its economy and military. A nation with a broken soul is as doomed as one with a dysfunctional political system, and I think Alistair would be better than Anora on that front.

I would argue that a nation's pshyche is in large part dependent on the state of its economy and military.
But I do not see Alistair, even if assuming he has that advantage, to be able to do much difference with the absence of mass media. With Anora bringing surplus wealth for reconstruction, I'd think that would be just as efficient for healing.

Of course, Alistair's main weaknesses are his naievite and lack of experience and knowledge in politics. Still, I think he is superior to both his father and his brother in a couple of ways. Unlike his father, he is not led as much by his dick or his heart, in terms of love interest. Though many people have thrown hissy fits because Alistair dumped their Warden, it was actually a good call for him. His father was actually planning on marrying his Orlesian elven bimbo and making her queen, at least Alistair realizes that despite his own wishes, marrying an elf, dwarf, or mage would be a terrible idea on many fronts. And of course, he has way more sense than Cailan ever did.

Agreed and like I said, I do not think Alisair, as hardened or even unhardened, is a disaster (like Cailan. And MAric if he was on his own). I think at best, he is average and decent. But that's about it.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 08:36 .

[Iosev]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except no one said that Bhelen is the best most ideal choice, but rather as the better choice than Harrowmont.

Harrowmont and Bhelen reflect polar extremes that unfortunately make neither a clearly better choice.  Harrowmont rules justly, but is traditional, so his uneagerness to reform dwarven society means little change until the next leader.  Bhelen makes a few changes, but at the cost of dissolving the the Assembly, where people like Lord Helmi (who is progressive and wants to end the caste system) may be prevented from voicing their opinions and potentially erasing future civil dialogue.

First of all, your warden doesn't reform anything, it's a dwarf leader who does and who once ruling, doesn't need you at all. Second, there is no immediate break with the past. revolutionnary measures. Bhelen weakens caste restrictions, but he does not abolish the caste system.

By selecting Bhelen, you are installing a potential tyrant, making you indirectly responsible for the positive, as well as the negative changes, that he will do to Orzammar.

Less caste restrictions. More trade. The paralysing oligarchic self-interested assembly removed.
Where is the negative change? Believe it or not many "tyrannical leaders" can and did produce results.

You're only looking at what is expicitly stated in the epilogue.  The epilogue hints that there is a divide upon whether Bhelen is looked at as a tyrant or a reformer, which may hint that civil war may occur during his reign.  Like I said, he dissolves the Assembly, which may lead to civil war between the warrior and noble castes (who were members of the Assembly) and the casteless. 

Future civil unrest and war is also possible with Harrowmont.  Ultimately, the epilogues detail largely the short-term consequences, but long-term, the consequences are far more open-ended.  I'm not going to believe that either choice is "clearly better" than the other, when we don't really know. 

Modifié par arcelonious, 28 février 2011 - 08:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

arcelonious wrote...
Harrowmont and Bhelen reflect polar extremes that unfortunately make neither a clearly better choice.  Harrowmont rules justly, but is traditional, so his uneagerness to reform dwarven society means little change until the next leader.

Where is the justice in worsening caste restrictions, forbidding the casteless from goign to the commons, and then sending golems to crush them all afrter they obviously revolt because he managed to actually make their lvies worse?

Bhelen makes a few changes, but at the cost of dissolving the the Assembly, where people like Lord Helmi (who is progressive and wants to end the caste system) may be prevented from voicing their opinions and potentially erasing future civil dialogue.

Helmi was considered a joke even by his own mother and no one listened to him. He is one, amongst 80 who do not come even close to sharing his opinion.

And civil dialogue, you mean self-interested oligarchic nobles? Cry me a river.

Second, the dissolving of the Assembly does not mean hat bhelen can't have a council of experts around him.  

By selecting Bhelen, you are installing a potential tyrant, making you indirectly responsible for the positive, as well as the negative changes, that he will do to Orzammar.

Indirectly at best. Not the point I was making. You were claiming that you want tthe dwarves to reform on their own, which they are. The Warden helps Bhelen get the throne, but he does not help him in making those reforms.

You're only looking at what is expicitly stated in the epilogue.  The epilogue hints that there is a divide upon whether Bhelen is looked at as a tyrant or a reformer, which may hint that civil war may occur during his reign.  Like I said, he dissolves the Assembly, which may lead to civil war between the warrior and noble castes (who were members of the Assembly) and the casteless. 

I find it unlikely. He already has warrior and noble allies and the entire casteless at his side.
Even if there was civil war, the likely outcome is Bhelen defeating them, like he already did.

We may speculate all day, and I agree that we can only say for sure once we have the results.
However, everything in the game and the epilogue makes it pretty clear who the better leader is (heck even Gaider said so at PAX). Even should Bhelen fail, it would not be as disastrous as Harrowmont, who either fails to rule entirely, or ends up making regressive policies that are so idiotic it's actually impressive.