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[Iosev]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Helmi was considered a joke even by his own mother and no one listened to him. He is one, amongst 80 who do not come even close to sharing his opinion.

I don't remember him saying any such thing.  If I recall correctly, his mother just didn't like him frequenting the tavern (where he likes to discuss politics).  He's probably one of the most forward thinking dwarves that you meet in Orzammar.

Modifié par arcelonious, 28 février 2011 - 08:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

arcelonious wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Helmi was considered a joke even by his own mother and no one listened to him. He is one, amongst 80 who do not come even close to sharing his opinion.

I don't remember him saying any such thing.  If I recall correctly, his mother just didn't like him frequenting the tavern (where he likes to discuss politics).  He's probably one of the most forward thinking dwarves that you meet in Orzammar.

He says he is considered to be the greatest shame to ever befall the Assembly. No one listens to him, hence why he is at a tavern getting drunk instead of talkign to fellow Deshyrs.

Yes, he is forward thinking. Doesn't do much if he is one in 80, and doesn't have the skill / will to impose himself.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Agreed. The one reason why I would hesitate to call her brilliant is her inability (at least in Origins) in controlling the army. It's understandable, who could control the army when Loghain is around, but still. I think she is tryign to remedy this, hence the armor and her presence in Denerim (and according to Loghain, she actually trains with the sword and bow).[/quote]

I think Anora's inability to control the military was due to her trusting her father so much, as well as him being her father. Naturally, he's Ferelden's greatest general and patriot, so initially, in theory, it was wise to trust military matters in his hands, since she has little experience or knowledge there. Of course later on, when she realized what a mess he was making, her inability then I think was unwillingness to act against her father directly, hence her more subtle attempts. She is human, and pragmatist or not, as she even tells you, she is not heartless, and love her father. She wanted to remove him from power, but was hoping she could do so in a way that would not humiliate or disgrace him, while still making use of his talents. She was taking an extreme damage control approach, which in theory, is also very wise and admirable. Though in practice, it doesn't really work most of the time.


[qupte]I am not expecting actual military genius. Augustus was no brilliant general and barely decent, it was Agrippa the military mind. But there was no doubt that Augustus commanded the loyalty and respect of the army, and not only because of his name (Caesar), but also because of his wise use of money, his control over the clientela and the military reforms he put in place. [/quote]

Yeah, I can see that. She does try, but I think that's an are where
Alistair would have more success. He's a Therin, A Warden, and a
military man himself who fought against the Blight, he would find
getting the military on board and under control less problematic than
Anora. Not that it would be impossible for her, just more of a challenge.

[quote]Now granted, a lot of this has to do with Ferelden's outdated barbaric system that allows it to be so. So yea, maybe I could consider Anora brilliant, for Ferelden. And agreed on adopting a cautious and moderate approach.  Empires can assume different shapes and forms and if Ferelden can become one (or a hegemon), it will take time and patience.
[quote]

Yes, that was what I was refering to, in terms of her brilliance. She is, in my opinion, Ferelden's first monarch with a brain and a plan (at least going by what we know of Ferelden's past leadership). And the fact that she is a woman against a background of mostly moronic kings does not escape me, either.


[quote]I would argue that a nation's pshyche is in large part dependent on the state of its economy and military.
But I do not see Alistair, even if assuming he has that advantage, to be able to do much difference with the absence of mass media. With Anora bringing surplus wealth for reconstruction, I'd think that would be just as efficient for healing. [/quote]

In my own experience, I would argue that the two are often linked, but can also be seperate. A nation can be wealthy and well fed, yet still have major internal social/spiritual issues that can impede it's function and efficiency. Issues such as race, religion, sex are all social issues that can cause major upheavals and internal friction in a nation. While gender in Ferelden does not seem to be an issue, the other two do seem to be, though their impact is probably less signifigant. But we are coming out of a civil war as well as a Blight, and there is going to remain a large amount of bitterness and vendetta amongst both Banns and commoners, because of whose side they took in the civil war, if any. I know here in Andalucia, it is actually a major reason I believe why this region is so poor and unproductive economically. People are still carrying out hatreds and family feuds over events from the Franco era, which ended in 1977. They are still dwelling and feuding over that, and its one reason it's so lawless and disorganized down here.

People just aren't going to be as productive if they are still killing neighbors or plotting revenge because they are still irrate over something that was done to them in the Civil War.



[quote]Agreed and like I said, I do not think Alisair, as hardened or even unhardened, is a disaster (like Cailan. And MAric if he was on his own). I think at best, he is average and decent. But that's about it.  

[/quote]

Yeah, I'm not expecting anything radical or earth shattering from Alistair's rule either, but I think he can keep the country glued together during his reign, as well as smooth out some difficulties. Which at the very least, will leave the country in a state better than which he took it over in, of which perhaps someone with bigger plans and more skills can then move it on.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 She was taking an extreme damage control approach, which in theory, is also very wise and admirable. Though in practice, it doesn't really work most of the time.

Yes like I said before, I do not think that anyone else that we know of would have fared any better.
If I were her, I would have tried to increase my standing with the army in those  5 years before Origins, but then again, Cailan would have been in the way and now I want to vomit as I hypothetically made him my husband. 

Yeah, I can see that. She does try, but I think that's an are where Alistair would have more success. He's a Therin, A Warden, and a military man himself who fought against the Blight, he would find getting the military on board and under control less problematic than Anora. Not that it would be impossible for her, just more of a challenge.

Eeeh, I am not so sure about that. He is a good soldier, who mostty follows orders well. But I did not see in him any hint of an actual military leader. As in capable of leading men and inspiring loyalty out of sheer charisma. But, apparently Fereldan soldiers think Cailan has charisma (idiots).  Maybe, maybe not.

In any case, the army in Ferelden is not that powerful of an institution as it's still tied to banns. Only when it's centralized or being centralized under the crown (I don't think Alistair is planning this), does the task of earning their respect and loyalty became very crucial and decisive.  Something that Arcturus was planning to do.  

Yes, that was what I was refering to, in terms of her brilliance. She is, in my opinion, Ferelden's first monarch with a brain and a plan (at least going by what we know of Ferelden's past leadership). And the fact that she is a woman against a background of mostly moronic kings does not escape me, either.

The fact that she is the only non-Therein against a background of mostly moronic Thereins does not escape me, either

People just aren't going to be as productive if they are still killing neighbors or plotting revenge because they are still irrate over something that was done to them in the Civil War.

I think she is popular enough amongst the commoners and nobles, and is backing that popularity with actual material benefits, that she would be adequate enough for the job. I don't think Alistair would be better at this in any meaningful or substantial way.

I personally think I am not affected by any form of charisma, but I mean I think I can acknowledge charisma when I see it, even if I am not affected. And I see none of it with Alistair. So I am not sure he would do much to heal anything psycologically, and considering how the epilogue once said that the move to put an elven bann turns out to be a disaster, his desire to set things straight with the elves, while understandable, is just going to engender bitterness and is not going to heal much.

Edited to add: popularity is not necessarily the same as charisma. Alistair is popular, but I don't think it's out of his own personal charisma. But apparently Loghain thinks Maric is charismatic, and I saw none of that either, so maybe Fereldans have a different conception of charisma.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 09:44 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes like I said before, I do not think that anyone else that we know of would have fared any better.
If I were her, I would have tried to increase my standing with the army in those  5 years before Origins, but then again, Cailan would have been in the way and now I want to vomit as I hypothetically made him my husband.

Yes, His Glorious Majesty Cailan would NEVER permit Anora to steal his GLORY! Anora could have easily manipulated him in any other area, but not the military. Not his "glory". <_<

Eeeh, I am not so sure about that. He is a good soldier, who mostty follows orders well. But I did not see in him any hint of an actual military leader. As in capable of leading men and inspiring loyalty out of sheer charisma. But, apparently Fereldan soldiers think Cailan has charisma (idiots).  Maybe, maybe not.

In any case, the army in Ferelden is not that powerful of an institution as it's still tied to banns. Only when it's centralized or being centralized under the crown (I don't think Alistair is planning this), does the task of earning their respect and loyalty became very crucial and decisive.  Something that Arcturus was planning to do.

 

Alistair might not, but paired with Anora, yes. And Alistair would make centralizing the military easier for Anora. It's another reason why theorhetically, at least, Alistair paired with Anora is actually the best potential leadership. (Naturally, I say this only because Arcturus does not exist in my universes, except maybe in Morrigan's fantasies:D). 

The fact that she is the only non-Therein against a background of mostly moronic Thereins does not escape me, either

Note that the only Therin who showed any promise was a woman.

I think she is popular enough amongst the commoners and nobles, and is backing that popularity with actual material benefits, that she would be adequate enough for the job. I don't think Alistair would be better at this in any meaningful or substantial way.

I personally think I am not affected by any form of charisma, but I mean I think I can acknowledge charisma when I see it, even if I am not affected. And I see none of it with Alistair. So I am not sure he would do much to heal anything psycologically, and considering how the epilogue once said that the move to put an elven bann turns out to be a disaster, his desire to set things straight with the elves, while understandable, is just going to engender bitterness and is not going to heal much.

This is your problem, you are looking at it from your own mind, instead of thinking like your average Joe commoner. Now pretend you are average Joe commoner. Which leader will have more charisma to you as your typical Ferelden commoner?

Alistair, hands down. Sure, Anora is popular and well loved, but who do you think will be able to reach them better at an emotional and personal level? Alistair, without question. That "common touch", which Alistair posseses, hardened or not. He will be much better at getting your average Ferelden worked up and excited about things than Anora would. Which, let's say, you wanted the people to cooperate with you in some certain scheme for the country, things go far smoother if they are excited about it and really believe in it. Anora is not without charisma, naturally, and she is very intelligent and carries herself well. She looks and acts the part of a monarch. But she does lack the "common touch".

Anora would be the brains, but Alistair would be a better salesman. And getting your freeholders to start showing more loyalty and support for the crown helps to weaken the Banns, since their power comes from the common freeholder.

Edited to add: popularity is not necessarily the same as charisma. Alistair is popular, but I don't think it's out of his own personal charisma. But apparently Loghain thinks Maric is charismatic, and I saw none of that either, so maybe Fereldans have a different conception of charisma.

A good example would be your average DAO player. As we see in the forums, far more people make Alistair king than Anora, and more people express more connection or like for Alistair. Because they are mostly your average person, who has little to no interest in politics or its complexities, or how to rule. They pick the guy they personally like and put him in charge, because they think he's a nice guy, and want a nice guy to rule the country. many of the guys pick Anora, it is because they are a Cousland who is going to marry her because they want to take charge, but want to fight Anora over how to rule.

Like I said, you need to stop thinking like a political mastermind, and start thinking like a Ferelden, when you are trying to understand the country and its system, and why the people act they way they do. Your average Ferelden will warm up to and let their guard down more around Alistair than they would Anora, if say you put them in a room alone with either monarch.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Alistair might not, but paired with Anora, yes. And Alistair would make centralizing the military easier for Anora. It's another reason why theorhetically, at least, Alistair paired with Anora is actually the best potential leadership. (Naturally, I say this only because Arcturus does not exist in my universes, except maybe in Morrigan's fantasies:D). 

I do not share that optimism. On paper, it's perfect. But what we need is for them to get along in practise. Which could happen, but I think it would be very difficult. They are very different, even potentially in opposition.

Note that the only Therin who showed any promise was a woman.

Who failed to raise her only successor properly. But yes, she's better htan her dad, that's for sure.
Sophia Dryden had some potential, before she screwed up of course.

This is your problem, you are looking at it from your own mind, instead of thinking like your average Joe commoner. Now pretend you are average Joe commoner. Which leader will have more charisma to you as your typical Ferelden commoner?

If I was a Ferelden commoner, I would support the monarch who is making my life and the lives of others better. Via more trade, reconstruction and surplus in agriculture. The one who might even improve the education of my children. And who is herself of commoner origin.That's Anora. 

But maybe it's also a cultural thing. For us, charisma means being able to command loyalty, respect and devotion effortlessly. Essentially having a commanding and imposing presence, both with individuals and with a crowd. It's more than just being a good salesman.  Alistair is really not that at all, nor is Anora, though she might fare better than him with us, if people would look past the fact that she is a woman. Loghain I think would have been considered charismatic by us.

Anora would be the brains, but Alistair would be a better salesman. And getting your freeholders to start showing more loyalty and support for the crown helps to weaken the Banns, since their power comes from the common freeholder.

That's what Arcturus was planning (and I think he'd do a much better job). The problem is, that's all assuming Alistair would collaborate with Anora.

Your average Ferelden will warm up to and let their guard down more around Alistair than they would Anora, if say you put them in a room alone with either monarch.

Yes, I think they would. Issue is if liking him as a person translates into them thining that he is good for their interests. But you are probably right. Judging from what most who put Alistair on the throne say. I'll concede that he might be more popular than Anora.   Still wouldn't make him a better ruler or leader, imo. You could be a good salesman all you want, it's useless if you don't actually have ideas to sell.  

[Eber]

arcelonious wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Helmi was considered a joke even by his own mother and no one listened to him. He is one, amongst 80 who do not come even close to sharing his opinion.

I don't remember him saying any such thing.  If I recall correctly, his mother just didn't like him frequenting the tavern (where he likes to discuss politics).  He's probably one of the most forward thinking dwarves that you meet in Orzammar.

Helmi takes great pride in being a progressive weirdo. If he had noble supporters he would not be unique and his stories about being slapped around by the establishment would not so easily grab a crowd. I don't think he would like that. So he shaves, introduces himself as a great disappointment, and makes sure no one takes him seriously.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



I do not share that optimism. On paper, it's perfect. But what we need is for them to get along in practise. Which could happen, but I think it would be very difficult. They are very different, even potentially in opposition.

The epilogues show that Alistair hardened, defers to Anora, there are none where he battles her for power, even when Loghain lives. I think you give Alistair too little credit in his ability to grow up. Sure, he wouldn't agree with all her wants, but I think they could comprimise, as Alistair himself has enough wisdom to know he's generally out of his league when it comes to politics. I do not think Alistair would continually challenge her on everything, just some things.

Who failed to raise her only successor properly. But yes, she's better htan her dad, that's for sure.
Sophia Dryden had some potential, before she screwed up of course.

Kinda hard to raise a boy properly when you're a single mother on the run, trying to start a rebellion while there's a price on your head, gaining support and creating alliances, when there is a price on your head and your own nobility is treacherous enough to collect. Maric didn't really spend much of his formative years in a castle with tutors, they probably had most of their wealth taken by the Orlesians, and they were pretty much living on the good graces of those who his mother managed to convince to join the fight. I doubt there was much time or opportunity or resources to train him beyond the basics (Like Addai once pointed out, his lack of horseriding skills are not from a lack of training, but general nervousness and ineptitude when handling the animals.)

And of course, there was nothing Moira could do about her son's personal lack of interest and desire in being a king. That's down to his inate personality.

If I was a Ferelden commoner, I would support the monarch who is making my life and the lives of others better. Via more trade, reconstruction and surplus in agriculture. The one who might even improve the education of my children. And who is herself of commoner origin.That's Anora.

But there is nothing common about Anora, despite her bloodline. She has been educated and trained in ways and things that are alien to the average Joe. Her mannerisms are gentile and refined, something that might intimidate your average person.

Again, you are thinking as you, not as a Ferelden. Fereldens have a very different outlook and attitude, but as you mentioned here:

But maybe it's also a cultural thing. For us, charisma means being able to command loyalty, respect and devotion effortlessly. Essentially having a commanding and imposing presence, both with individuals and with a crowd. It's more than just being a good salesman.  Alistair is really not that at all, nor is Anora, though she might fare better than him with us, if people would look past the fact that she is a woman. Loghain I think would have been considered charismatic by us.

Cultural seems likely. The Fereldens culturally are nothing like the Arabs are, and thus, what inspires or excites them seems to be very different. They seem to be modled on dark ages/medieval Britain, with modern day cultural elements thrown in, western style. Yes, people liked leaders who were great warriors, that is what usually inspired devotion. They were barely civilized, and even Christianity there was heavily laced with pagan elements and practices. Freemen were very independant and admired brute strength and skill. People's personal fortunes depended less upon the leadership, and more upon the climate. They were highly agrarian, and tended to look upon those educated in the "decadent" ways of the civilized nations (Rome, Greece, ect) with a certain amount of suspicion.

What they consider charasimatic would be very different. This is a country that settles leadership issues with brawls, and this is perfectly acceptable to them.

That's what Arcturus was planning (and I think he'd do a much better job). The problem is, that's all assuming Alistair would collaborate with Anora.

Which I think is perfectly possible. Like I saidm, he might oppose her on some things, but others, he would probably agree with her. I can't see him opposing her plans to increase trade and build a university, nor can I see him stopping her from giving freeholders incentives to produce more food. They might battle on other issues, of course.

Yes, I think they would. Issue is if liking him as a person translates into them thining that he is good for their interests. But you are probably right. Judging from what most who put Alistair on the throne say. I'll concede that he might be more popular than Anora.   Still wouldn't make him a better ruler or leader, imo. You could be a good salesman all you want, it's useless if you don't actually have ideas to sell.  

No, it would not make him a better ruler. What I am saying is, is that Anora could provide the goods to sell, and Alistair could sell them better than she could, if you were to pair the two. Alone, they would have to work alot harder in certain areas.

remember, fereldens are not only borderline barbarians, they are quite happy with the situation. They are very hard working, independant, and gritty people, and warm up to commoness moreso than refinement.  They themselves see little reason why they should change, if you wish to change them, you need someone who can successfully sell change to them at a level they can udnerstand and relate to. It's more than just how much money or food they have in their stores, though these are important issues. There are many types of change, even if it will benefit them economically, that they would resist or be hostile to, if it were not presented right.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The epilogues show that Alistair hardened, defers to Anora, there are none where he battles her for power, even when Loghain lives. I think you give Alistair too little credit in his ability to grow up. Sure, he wouldn't agree with all her wants, but I think they could comprimise, as Alistair himself has enough wisdom to know he's generally out of his league when it comes to politics. I do not think Alistair would continually challenge her on everything, just some things.

Would he agree or even understand the need to centralize power and reform the whole mess that is the system? Would he approve of shadowy backroom deals, manipulation and ruthelessness should it become necessary?
I have my doubts.

And of course, there was nothing Moira could do about her son's personal lack of interest and desire in being a king. That's down to his inate personality.

True, I guess.

Cultural seems likely. The Fereldens culturally are nothing like the Arabs are, and thus, what inspires or excites them seems to be very different.

Well they do sound similar to pre-Islamic Arabs in some if not many ways. Both are simpletons and quasi-barbaric (exception is Yemen, and those in the Fertile Crescent, of course). Today, we are not better either.  

Still, I do not see in Alistair that much charisma as to be able to inspire them to become a real nation. Being liked is one thing. Developping into people devotion to a cause / vision is another thing. If we take a universal definition of charismatic leadership, as defined by Max Weber (cultural differences not withstanding), which I think is pertinente and valid, Alistair would not qualify as a charismatic authority. For one, charismatic authorities generally believe in what they are doing and have some sort of vision, Alistair lacks that, even if Anora supplies the vision and that's assuming he will agree.
      
So once again, I stress the difference between popularity and charisma, or charismatic authority to be more precise. I think Alistair can be very popular to Fereldens. I still do not believe he has that much charisma to make them devoted to him and his vision, which he doesn't have in the first place.  He simply lacks the self-confidence and personal magnetism to pull it off.

In otherwords, he is not a Napoleon, or a Caesar, or a Moses, or a Muhammad.
Not skill wise, it's pretty obvious he doesn't come even close to being worth their pincky finger, but charisma wise. 

So I am not convinced that he has enough charisma to be able to sell change. He might have enough to make him popular, but not to enroot a vision into society. He simply cannot compare with those in our history who did, even when they were in not too different contexts.

Furthermore, if we take the removed epilogue slide as canon or plausible (we need to know why it was removed), then his appointment of an elf as a bann turned out to be a disaster. A charismatic leader might have been able to pull it off, he wasn't. But it depends on whether the epilogue slide was removed because it simply didn't happen, or because the devs thougtht they didn't want to ruin people's endings that much (meh to that). 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mars 2011 - 12:27 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Would he agree or even understand the need to centralize power and reform the whole mess that is the system? Would he approve of shadowy backroom deals, manipulation and ruthelessness should it become necessary?
I have my doubts.

The first, yes, especially if Anora succeeded in convincing him that it would be a great move for the welfare of the people in the country. Alistair doesn't seem to hold any strong political, nationalist views, so the centralization of power and the loss of power of the Banns would not be something that would offend him on some deep moral or personal level. He doesn't seem to hold much interest or fascination with the nobility, beyond those he knows personally, like Eamon.

Which, of course, would be a problem, if Eamon is in the picture in some signifigant way. Because of course, Eamon would be pretty dead set against centralization of power, and would certainly put pressure on Alistair to resist. However, if Eamon is not, especially in the case of a chancellor Warden, then Eamon's influence could be negated in that respect. Or if Redcliffe is destroyed, it's game over for Eamon no matter what.

Well they do sound similar to pre-Islamic Arabs in some if not many ways. Both are simpletons and quasi-barbaric (exception is Yemen, and those in the Fertile Crescent, of course). Today, we are not better either. 

The Anglo-Saxons were similar pllitically, as were the Celts, but when we speak of their cultures, they were very different peoples, with different attitudes on things. Very different customs, cultures, and values, ecven if politically and generally, they were similar. And what unified/inspired them was different than what worked in the Middle East.

Still, I do not see in Alistair that much charisma as to be able to inspire them to become a real nation. Being liked is one thing. Developping into people devotion to a cause / vision is another thing. If we take a universal definition of charismatic leadership, as defined by Max Weber (cultural differences not withstanding), which I think is pertinente and valid, Alistair would not qualify as a charismatic authority. For one, charismatic authorities generally believe in what they are doing and have some sort of vision, Alistair lacks that, even if Anora supplies the vision and that's assuming he will agree.
      
So once again, I stress the difference between popularity and charisma, or charismatic authority to be more precise. I think Alistair can be very popular to Fereldens. I still do not believe he has that much charisma to make them devoted to him and his vision, which he doesn't have in the first place.  He simply lacks the self-confidence and personal magnetism to pull it off.

In otherwords, he is not a Napoleon, or a Caesar, or a Moses, or a Muhammad.
Not skill wise, it's pretty obvious he doesn't come even close to being worth their pincky finger, but charisma wise.

Again, I'm not saying he would be an epic leader studied by future generations in awe and wonder. I do however, think he is capable of stabilizing the country during his reign alone, and with Anora, the two could at least set ferelden in a direction where future leaders with better skills and vision could take the country further. 

So I am not convinced that he has enough charisma to be able to sell change. He might have enough to make him popular, but not to enroot a vision into society. He simply cannot compare with those in our history who did, even when they were in not too different contexts.

I do. I actually see Anora as more the popular one, but Alistair more the charismatic one. Like you pointed out before, Ferelden's though Cailan was great, it was really only the ones with any brains amongst the nobility who thought he was a moron. And even amongst the commoners, there was no illusion as to who was really running the show.

So for Fereldens, Alistair is much more charismatic and accessable. Anora is popular and loved, but is more an object of distant admiration than someone they truly feel at an instinctual level.

The Banns themselves are a different scenario, but well, they have to be dealt with differently.

Furthermore, if we take the removed epilogue slide as canon or plausible (we need to know why it was removed), then his appointment of an elf as a bann turned out to be a disaster. A charismatic leader might have been able to pull it off, he wasn't. But it depends on whether the epilogue slide was removed because it simply didn't happen, or because the devs thougtht they didn't want to ruin people's endings that much (meh to that). 

I do not know why it was removed. Maybe they thought it redundant or unecessary. Though the city elf can become a Teyrn via their boon, and no one seems to care. Same for Dalish, mages, and elves, and Anora will do this as well. The more I see the problems with epilogue slides clashing with expansion or sequel plots, the more I'm wondering how much thought was put into many of them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The first, yes, especially if Anora succeeded in convincing him that it would be a great move for the welfare of the people in the country. Alistair doesn't seem to hold any strong political, nationalist views, so the centralization of power and the loss of power of the Banns would not be something that would offend him on some deep moral or personal level. He doesn't seem to hold much interest or fascination with the nobility, beyond those he knows personally, like Eamon.

So would he accept the inevitable and necessary egg breaking to achieve that goal? Will he not misinterpret this move as the creation of a tyranny (the Crown will axiomatically grow stronger)?  
Again, I have my doubts.

The Anglo-Saxons were similar pllitically, as were the Celts, but when we speak of their cultures, they were very different peoples, with different attitudes on things. Very different customs, cultures, and values, ecven if politically and generally, they were similar. And what unified/inspired them was different than what worked in the Middle East.

I don't think they are that hugely dissimilar. Culture is influenced, at least indirectly, by material conditions. More often then not, peoples who share the same material conditions have a lot in common. Emphasis on personal strength, chivlary and honor were there. Oral culture was also prelavent in both examples. Perhaps the Arabs appreciated poetry much more though. A type of gerontocracy, or rule by an elite group and less by one man. Elite egalitarianism as to were, and also some semblance of egalitarianism in general.

Not saying that they are that similar either, but I do think there are enough similarities to be able to draw general comparisions.

Again, I'm not saying he would be an epic leader studied by future generations in awe and wonder. I do however, think he is capable of stabilizing the country during his reign alone, and with Anora, the two could at least set ferelden in a direction where future leaders with better skills and vision could take the country further. 

Not arguing against that. I am arguing that he does not possess the personal raw magnetism of those leaders, and thus cannot be qualified as a charismatic leader, or possessing more than average charisma.

I do. I actually see Anora as more the popular one, but Alistair more the charismatic one. Like you pointed out before, Ferelden's though Cailan was great, it was really only the ones with any brains amongst the nobility who thought he was a moron. And even amongst the commoners, there was no illusion as to who was really running the show.

So for Fereldens, Alistair is much more charismatic and accessable. Anora is popular and loved, but is more an object of distant admiration than someone they truly feel at an instinctual level.

And here lies the problem, we are using different definitions of charisma. I don't think Fereldans saw Cailan as charismatic. It's hard to be considered charismatic when your own people don't hold you in such a high esteem.
Cailan was on the otherhand popular, because they mistake his idiocy for charms (and I hope Anora was lying to us when she said she considered him charming).

I am using charisma in the sense of charismatic authority as defined by Weber and not only accessibility (in fact many charismatic leaders were personally introverted and calm).  In essense, people like Napoleon, Caesar and Muhammad. Their accomplishments and skills aside, they also had charismatic authority. As in, they have a dominating presence, and inspire almost if not complete devotion.

I do not know why it was removed. Maybe they thought it redundant or unecessary. Though the city elf can become a Teyrn via their boon, and no one seems to care. Same for Dalish, mages, and elves, and Anora will do this as well. The more I see the problems with epilogue slides clashing with expansion or sequel plots, the more I'm wondering how much thought was put into many of them.

Because that elf happens to be the Warden savrior of Ferelden. Very different from an average elf.
The former might engender some resentment, but most will be too grateful to care. The latter on the otherhand can and would engender much more resentment.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mars 2011 - 01:35 .

[Joy Divison]

I am not convinced there would be a historically significant difference between Anora or Alistair's rule. I personally think many of my historical colleagues are too dismissive of the "Great Man" of history argument, but in the end Charles the VI, VII, and whoever mostly tend to be the same. I do think Anora would be the more competent ruler, but neither strike me as exceptional.

Behlen/Harrowmont on the other hand does strike me as one of those historical moments when personality matters. Harrowmont strikes me as the weak and conservatively minded no-named 16th-17th century kings of Poland whose refusal to reform, centralize, or expand the executive's authority doomed the kingdom to political extinction. Behlen breaks a few eggs but his historical omlette would be something that would have his name in bold face in any introductory survey textbook.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 01 mars 2011 - 01:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Joy Divison wrote...

I am not convinced there would be a historically significant difference between Anora or Alistair's rule. I personally think many of my historical colleagues are too dismissive of the "Great Man" of history argument, but in the end Charles the VI, VII, and whoever mostly tend to be the same. I do think Anora would be the more competent ruler, but neither strike me as exceptional.
 

Yea, I agree, I don't think Anora's rule will drastically alter Ferelden, even if I think she is a better and more competent ruler. That said, I think she can set the proper, or at least some, foundations for change.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lol Loghain's cameo in Awakening is just awesome. I am not sure why but it is.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So would he accept the inevitable and necessary egg breaking to achieve that goal? Will he not misinterpret this move as the creation of a tyranny (the Crown will axiomatically grow stronger)?  
Again, I have my doubts.

It depends on what sorts of eggs we are breaking, and how they will be broken. I can picture in my mind right now a couple of possibilities that require some egg breakage, but could be sold to Alistair if presented right, appealing to the right attributes. A more subtle manipulation than our dear Dain would pull, but I think Anora could pull it off. Alistair does have a problem of tunnel vision, but this problem under various circumstances can be used to an advantage. Also, the right triggers and pressures must be used.

One thing to remember about Alistair, he is more Maric's son in temperment and personality than Cailan ever was. Though there are fundemental differences in their upbringings, they possess very similar key personality traits (a reluctance to lead, but if "hardened" will take it more seriously. They also need "hardened" right hand men/women to keep them from doing something stupid usually, and can be pressed to reluctantly to make choices they find distasteful, if the right buttons are pushed.

So under the right circumstances, yes, Alistair could accept some eggs to be broken. Though certainly, there are many limits to which he would do, and certainly, sheer ruthlessness and overt, direct moves to consoladate power would likely be opposed.

but neither do I see Anora consolidating/centralizing power that much, only in a few areas where she will not recieve alot of resistance/opposition, such as trade and education. Power in ferelden has to be centralized slowly, I personally believe, because the Bannorn needs to be dealt with subtly, undermining them from beneath where they don't bother looking.

I don't think they are that hugely dissimilar. Culture is influenced, at least indirectly, by material conditions. More often then not, peoples who share the same material conditions have a lot in common. Emphasis on personal strength, chivlary and honor were there. Oral culture was also prelavent in both examples. Perhaps the Arabs appreciated poetry much more though. A type of gerontocracy, or rule by an elite group and less by one man. Elite egalitarianism as to were, and also some semblance of egalitarianism in general.

Not saying that they are that similar either, but I do think there are enough similarities to be able to draw general comparisions.

I suppose, though their situations were very different. I would argue that even before Mohammed, the Arabs were more civilized, or at least open to many aspects of nearby civilizations. They lived in a region that had known trade, writing, cities, and the birth of civilization itself, just to the north of them. Though they were broken up into many feuding tribes, they were major players in several important trade items and associated trade routes, such as frankincense, myrrh, and pearls from the Persian Gulf. They at least had some trappings of civilization, even if it was inferior to that of their Roman and Persian neighbors.

The Anglo Saxons, by comparison, really were pretty borderline barbarians. Other than the skirmishes their ancestoral tribes had with the Romans, and run ins with Roman outposts, they had little contact with the greater civilizations of the south, nor little interest, beyond shiny baubles they could trade with the Romans for. They had very little recorded history, most of what we know about them before they came to Britain came from Roman observations. The closest thing to cities they had were basically groups of log houses surrounding a pig pen. They seldom lived in close communities, instead, individual families would inhabit individual farmsteads at fair distances from their neighbors, usually only meeting up for festivals or conflicts. Even the arrival of Christianity did not soften their mannerisms much, it was a foreign invasion but a strongly Romanized culture (the Normans) that really brought any stability/lasting civilization to the country. And even then, there was still constant internal conflict for many years after.

They weren't completely uncivilized. They did have a basic, but effective writing system, and they did love their poetry (though most of their poetry involved graphic dismemberments and bizarre sexual unions). They also had a pretty practical, but relatively egaltarian, system of laws.

The Celtic peoples had long been Romanized and exposed to civilization, but even that could not prevent their tendancy to war amongst themselves over all manner of things. The Anglo saxons did so as well, though when it came to foreign threats, they were better at uniting and organizng effective defense and warfare against them. But the Anglo Saxons fought alot with their Celtic neighbors such as the Welsh and Scottish tribes, as well as their cousins, the Vikings and other contential Germanic tribes.

Not arguing against that. I am arguing that he does not possess the personal raw magnetism of those leaders, and thus cannot be qualified as a charismatic leader, or possessing more than average charisma.

Nor am I arguing he does. But he has enough, I think, to at least ease certain transitions.

And here lies the problem, we are using different definitions of charisma. I don't think Fereldans saw Cailan as charismatic. It's hard to be considered charismatic when your own people don't hold you in such a high esteem.
Cailan was on the otherhand popular, because they mistake his idiocy for charms (and I hope Anora was lying to us when she said she considered him charming).

I am using charisma in the sense of charismatic authority as defined by Weber and not only accessibility (in fact many charismatic leaders were personally introverted and calm).  In essense, people like Napoleon, Caesar and Muhammad. Their accomplishments and skills aside, they also had charismatic authority. As in, they have a dominating presence, and inspire almost if not complete devotion. 

Definitely different definitions of charisma, then. I am using a very different idea of it.

Because that elf happens to be the Warden savrior of Ferelden. Very different from an average elf.
The former might engender some resentment, but most will be too grateful to care. The latter on the otherhand can and would engender much more resentment.

Given the behavior  and mentality of people in Amaranthine to an elven Warden, I think whatever gratitude felt is too shortlived to make that much of a difference.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
One thing to remember about Alistair, he is more Maric's son in temperment and personality than Cailan ever was. Though there are fundemental differences in their upbringings, they possess very similar key personality traits (a reluctance to lead, but if "hardened" will take it more seriously. They also need "hardened" right hand men/women to keep them from doing something stupid usually, and can be pressed to reluctantly to make choices they find distasteful, if the right buttons are pushed.

Except Anora will not be his right hand woman, nor might she have the patience to put up with him. And maybe she wouldn't want to harden him further for fear it would threaten her, as she wants to call the shots. Anora does not strike me as the kind of woman who would try to seduce a person emotionally, or appeal to emotions, to get what she wants. I think of her more as the convincing rational type. A style that will certainly not work on Alistair.  Furthermore, if he is like Maric, he needs a close friend to harden him. I really do not see Anora rushing ahead to be friends with him, nor do I see him accepting her friendship that much. That's why I have more optimism in Alistair unhardened with Anora. Because he will get out of her way at least.

I am not suggesting what you are saying is impossible to happen. It might, but I have my doubts. I do not see them evolving into a very efficient duo. At best, a functional one, as in it doesn't collapse into civil war between them.

What you are suggesting is more likely to happen if the Warden is there to set alistair straight.

And I suppose you are right about pre-Islamic Arabs and Saxons.

Nor am I arguing he does. But he has enough, I think, to at least ease certain transitions.

I can concede to that. But if I were to classify him under one of Weber's three types of rulers, he'd be the typical feudal king and not the charismatic leader. That's what I meant.

Given the behavior  and mentality of people in Amaranthine to an elven Warden, I think whatever gratitude felt is too shortlived to make that much of a difference.

The Wardens in Amaranthine are unpopular anyways, you hear rumours of them orchastrating the whole thing to get stipends. So I think it's mostly nit picking, an elf is an easy target. But I don' think that shows that a Warden elf being made a Teyrn would cause as much outrage as an unknown elf becoming a bann.  

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Perhaps the Warden would be needed, as he would be inclined to listen to the Warden more. And yes, he does need a friend, more than anything. True, Anora might not have the patience, and yes, such a ruling union would have better success if Alistair had the right counselor. Alistair does require a good, intelligent advisor more than Anora, preferably, someone he has some sort of emotional trust towards, whether it be a friend or lover.

And yeah, much of my scenario does need a sensible Warden around in some capacity to advise him, as this is the one surefire way to make sure Eamon is not in the picture. Eamon is a big problem, and would have to be prevented from interfering.

Yes, I can see what you mean now by charisma. And I agree, a feudal king would be appropriate. He's not goingto inspire revolution, change, or devotion to any grand undertaking. But for more localized undertakings, I think he'd do well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Perhaps the Warden would be needed, as he would be inclined to listen to the Warden more. And yes, he does need a friend, more than anything. True, Anora might not have the patience, and yes, such a ruling union would have better success if Alistair had the right counselor. Alistair does require a good, intelligent advisor more than Anora, preferably, someone he has some sort of emotional trust towards, whether it be a friend or lover.

Now let's hope that Warden doesn't become ambitious as to try to oust or weaken Anora. Or that she does not interpret his/her intentions to be so.

A triumvirate is a very hard thing to manage, and the only historical examples that I can think of at the top of my head ended violently.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Now let's hope that Warden doesn't become ambitious as to try to oust or weaken Anora. Or that she does not interpret his/her intentions to be so.

No, no, it would definitely have to be a Warden possesed of the wisdom to see what the best thing for the country would be, which would be to ensure cooperation and teamwork between the two. And of course, they would also know that Anora's confidence in their advice and intentions is an essential part of this. So no, KoP, no Xanatos Gambits or evil Warden secretly assassinating Anora so he can take full control of Alistair and rule absolutely behind the scenes. That is not the sort of Warden I would want, though such a story would be pretty awesome read or watch.

It must be a Warden who holds the welfare of Ferelden above all, who is idealist enough to understand and connect with Alistair, but pragmatic enough to understand the necessity and potential benefits of some less than honorable actions, and be able to understand the necessity of tough decisions and reason. So the Warden could serve as a sort of translator/go between when conflict arose, to get Alisair to accept certain things, as well as address some of his concerns to Anora, and perhaps reach some sort of working comrpimise.

A triumvirate is a very hard thing to manage, and the only historical examples that I can think of at the top of my head ended violently.

Maybe they should have become treesomes instead.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
It must be a Warden who holds the welfare of Ferelden above all, who is idealist enough to understand and connect with Alistair, but pragmatic enough to understand the necessity and potential benefits of some less than honorable actions, and be able to understand the necessity of tough decisions and reason. So the Warden could serve as a sort of translator/go between when conflict arose, to get Alisair to accept certain things, as well as address some of his concerns to Anora, and perhaps reach some sort of working comrpimise.

Yea, if such a warden is present, I can see the couple being much more functional.

A triumvirate is a very hard thing to manage, and the only historical examples that I can think of at the top of my head ended violently.

Maybe they should have become treesomes instead.

Because threesomes can't end violently?
Tsk tsk tsk, Skadi, I am dissapointed.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[Costin_Razvan]

In my mind the best king for Fereldan would be Loghain with Anora to deal with economic affairs. To me Anora would just seem like someone who would want to make peace with Orlais and that would be incredibly foolish. You need someone like Loghain given the recent civil war and the recent attempts from Orlais to reconquer Fereldan via political means.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Maybe they should have become treesomes instead.

[/quote]

Because threesomes can't end violently?
Tsk tsk tsk, Skadi, I am dissapointed.

[/quote]

Not at all. Because at least the violence is more fun that way.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In my mind the best king for Fereldan would be Loghain with Anora to deal with economic affairs. To me Anora would just seem like someone who would want to make peace with Orlais and that would be incredibly foolish. You need someone like Loghain given the recent civil war and the recent attempts from Orlais to reconquer Fereldan via political means.

Why would peace with orlais be a bad thing? I'm not talking about Cailan's idiotic "peace", or stupid consessions and becoming Orlais's political b*tch. but I think it wise to pursue at least more amicable relations with the Orlesians at this point in time, like for issues such as trade and economics Ferelden has been weakened from civil war and Blight, and even at full strength, is in no position to antagonize it's big, powerful, giagantic neighbor. At least not at this point in time, nor, I think during Anora's reign. If one is planning on pursuing some sort of Aloiance with Nevarra, I think it is especially important, and you don't want Orlais to decide they are being overtly threatened, then make a move on you.

You want to allay any suspicions and fears on Orlais' part while rebuilding your army and building your economy and influence. Actual hostilities with orlais could be a viable possibility in the future, but given the current state of Ferelden's politics, military, and economy, it is unlikely to happen during Anora's lifetime, barring some great cataclysm or upheaval in Orlais or around Thedas.

Loghain should not have any political power over the country, his role should be strictly one of a general and national security chief. that is what he is best and wisest at, and could advise Anora militariliy and securitywise. Though Loghain is very much a hands-on man who prefers to get things done, and coupled with his fervent patriotism as well as a paternal desire to protect his only child, Loghain would probably still end up jumping into politics and creating a bit of hassle for Anora.

[Costin_Razvan]

I am sorry, but after a country attempts to conquer you politically by turning the King, half the nobility including the Arl of Redcliff and perhaps even Teryn Cousland against you ( Bryce was said to have gone to Orlais quite a lot as far as I remember ) you do not make peace nor do you entertain an amiable relationship.

In my eyes what Celene was planning was very well a damned declaration of war, and should be treated acordingly. I am not arguing for a war against Orlais in the immediate future what I am arguing for is a leader who will step in with an iron fist on the nobility and teach them their place. Anora and Alistair both fail to do so and that leaves Loghain as the only one capable of doing it.

Machiavelli 101: Better to be feared then loved. Alistair is loved as Maric's son, Anora is respected. neither have any military experience and neither are feared. Loghain has the power of the army besides him, he has the deep loyalty of his men and IS feared inside and out of Fereldan.

Anora/Alistair both have Fereldan descend into Civil War during Dragon Age 2 ( at least Gaider hinted at this and it's been rumored for quite a while now ). Fereldan needs someone who will stop the bull**** the Bannorn has been throwing and the only person ( let's ignore the Wardens shall we, they are null from a story perspective despite what we might want to make of them ) who can do is Loghain.

You talk of backing away and pursuing an agenda of appeasement for the time being. Celene would laugh while she continued to turn the nobles against the monarchy.

Anora is capable as an economic administrator, what she is not capable for now is to handle foreign affairs. Loghain is. Despite his faults he managed to beat half the Bannorn stacked against him and amass a strong army while doing so. His mistake was that he did not trust a bunch of secretive bastards who would not reveal why they were needed in the first place.

When a nation throws you a punch you don't back down in a corner and start crying for them to stop and offering them good to terms, you punch back. Fereldan cannot afford to appear weak, even if that means Orlais invading it must pursue an aggressive policy against Celene. In fact an invasion from Orlais would be favorable as Nevarra would jump right in at the chance.

Rebuilding the Economy should NOT be dependant on Orlesian trade in fact it should be something done in spite of it. Nevarra is a rich nation who controls the Free Marchers and ventures can be pursued with Antiva and Tevinter as well.

Napoleon once said in the mini-series: "We cannot allow France to become house of fools of Europe, one that you slap and then it thanks you for it."

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 mars 2011 - 01:21 .

[Joy Divison]

I wonder what Napoleon would have said had he had access to a time machine