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[KnightofPhoenix]

Joy Divison wrote...

I wonder what Napoleon would have said had he had access to a time machine

"I wish I was more prudent". Most likely.

But I won't get into that can of worms, Costin and I already debated this several times to death.

[Costin_Razvan]

Joy Divison wrote...

I wonder what Napoleon would have said had he had access to a time machine

That he should not have attempted to place his brother on the throne of Spain...he actually said that while he was at Helena.

Hundreds of thousands of troops ( with cannons, muskets, horses etc ), supplies and cash spent, some of his best Marshals sent in Spain. The Spanish ulcer cost him his throne, not Russia, not the 6th Coalition but the bloody Spaniards. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 mars 2011 - 04:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Quotes that I find more interesting:

"War is much too serious a thing to be left to military men." - de Talleyrand. 

"What clever man has ever needed to commit a crime? Crime is the last resort of political half-wits."
- de Talleyrand.

That's what he would call Loghain, and I'd agree. By that, I think he means that a clever politician either wouldn't need to commit a crime (as in violation of law and customs. So he'd rather bend and manipulate the rules to his advantage. There are ALWAYS  loopholes), or wouldn't be caught doing whatever it is he is doing (or making others do). 

Maybe a bit over-simplifying things, but for the most part I agree with it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Yet he was the one who thought it was wise to kill the Duke D'enghien, besides that quote about killing was from Fouche.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 mars 2011 - 04:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

It was not a crime, the Duke was active against the government and in alliance with the British and so technically he was the criminal and by law what he did was a capital offense.

[Joy Divison]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"War is much too serious a thing to be left to military men." - de Talleyrand. 

I thought that was Clemenceau?

But I know Clemenceau did utter one of my favorites:

"Wilson bores me with his 14 Points.  Why, God Almighty has only 10!"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Joy Divison wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"War is much too serious a thing to be left to military men." - de Talleyrand. 

I thought that was Clemenceau?

I thought that too actually. But many quotes are messed up and we are not sure who came up with it. Nor am I sure which sites are reliable.

In any case, it's a nice quote.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[Glorfindel709]

"When a man says he approves of something in principle, it means he hasn't the slightest intention of carrying it out in practice." Otto von Bismarck. Love that man

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Iron Chancellor is a badass. Easily one of my favorite modern European statesman.

[Glorfindel709]

Agreed KoP, I cannot think of another modern statesman that I hold in quite as high of a regard

[KnightofPhoenix]

Too bad those who came after were not half as good and were more eager to go to war, while he wanted to avoid it.

Wouldn't it be awesome if we had something of a prompt, where one of us talks about a certain important figure, their achievements, political context, and we can have a discussion about them...etc? lol 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[Glorfindel709]

Agreed!

Dibs on Fredrick the Great of Prussia

[KnightofPhoenix]

Or maybe we can have weekly prompts, like "week of generals". Or "week of medieval kings"...etc lol.
I mean with DA2 coming, nothing will happen here, right.

[Glorfindel709]

Hey why not. And to keep the forum from being closed, we can make comparisons to Loghain

[CalJones]

I'll keep sticking my head in, in the hope of some saucy Loghain fan art and what not, but I don't know nearly enough about history to be able to contribute to these discussions.

[DragonRacer13]

CalJones wrote...

I'll keep sticking my head in, in the hope of some saucy Loghain fan art and what not, but I don't know nearly enough about history to be able to contribute to these discussions.

Neither can I, but Chapter 8 is in beta and will be up hopefully by the end of this week (Friday/Saturday)... and there's actually a small shout-out to both you and Addai in it, lol.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I am sorry, but after a country attempts to conquer you politically by turning the King, half the nobility including the Arl of Redcliff and perhaps even Teryn Cousland against you ( Bryce was said to have gone to Orlais quite a lot as far as I remember ) you do not make peace nor do you entertain an amiable relationship.

In my eyes what Celene was planning was very well a damned declaration of war, and should be treated acordingly. I am not arguing for a war against Orlais in the immediate future what I am arguing for is a leader who will step in with an iron fist on the nobility and teach them their place. Anora and Alistair both fail to do so and that leaves Loghain as the only one capable of doing it.

Machiavelli 101: Better to be feared then loved. Alistair is loved as Maric's son, Anora is respected. neither have any military experience and neither are feared. Loghain has the power of the army besides him, he has the deep loyalty of his men and IS feared inside and out of Fereldan.

Anora/Alistair both have Fereldan descend into Civil War during Dragon Age 2 ( at least Gaider hinted at this and it's been rumored for quite a while now ). Fereldan needs someone who will stop the bull**** the Bannorn has been throwing and the only person ( let's ignore the Wardens shall we, they are null from a story perspective despite what we might want to make of them ) who can do is Loghain.

You talk of backing away and pursuing an agenda of appeasement for the time being. Celene would laugh while she continued to turn the nobles against the monarchy.

Anora is capable as an economic administrator, what she is not capable for now is to handle foreign affairs. Loghain is. Despite his faults he managed to beat half the Bannorn stacked against him and amass a strong army while doing so. His mistake was that he did not trust a bunch of secretive bastards who would not reveal why they were needed in the first place.

When a nation throws you a punch you don't back down in a corner and start crying for them to stop and offering them good to terms, you punch back. Fereldan cannot afford to appear weak, even if that means Orlais invading it must pursue an aggressive policy against Celene. In fact an invasion from Orlais would be favorable as Nevarra would jump right in at the chance.

Rebuilding the Economy should NOT be dependant on Orlesian trade in fact it should be something done in spite of it. Nevarra is a rich nation who controls the Free Marchers and ventures can be pursued with Antiva and Tevinter as well.

Nevarra does not completely control the Free Marches, it only, for the time being, has alot of political influence there. At least, we shall see better in DA2.

Anyway, no, I'm not talking about appeasement. Amicable relations with a neighbior do not equal appeasement. I'm not talking about becoming bosom buddies with them, I am talking about having a non-antagonistic relationship, for the time being, with a superpower that shares a huge border with your nation, a superpower that is large, wealthy, and could walk right in and crush you again. Loghain or no, Ferelden after the Blight has been so militarily weakened, as well as internally, from the civil war as well. Your military is still too weak and unhealthy to even be considered as a factor. Ferelden is in no position right after the Blight to be militarily antagonizing anyone, even with a powerful ally such as Nevarra. Ferelden must take care of it's own severe internal problems first before it can even consider expansion or pissing off Orlais. 

Now later, after a couple of decades, this situation could change if the country was managed right.

One does not have to kiss Orlais ass or sign peace treaties left and right. I'm not talking about becoming bosom buddies. Anmd the Orlesian threat is certainly still there, though it is not overt at this point, Celene is working her magic through subtlety and guile. Ferelden should, at this point, pursue more subtle policies with Orlais, while making behind the scenes backroom deals with the Nevarrans. After a few decades, when Ferelden is in a better position militarily and economically, then I think that they can, with the help of nevarra, start working on Orlais directly.

But at this point, other than Nevarra, which isn't a certainty, Ferelden has no allies to help it out, and a war with Orlais would push any progress the country has made back considerably, as well as probably lead it to defeat.

Napoleon once said in the mini-series: "We cannot allow France to become house of fools of Europe, one that you slap and then it thanks you for it."

Which is pretty much what France is today.....

[Joy Divison]

^^ That set up has been out there way too long

[KnightofPhoenix]

Should be pointed out that Napoleon is technically Italian, maybe that's why

[Costin_Razvan]

Which is pretty much what France is today.....

You mean all of Europe.

[CalJones]

Thanks Dragon, I'll keep my eye out for it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Which is pretty much what France is today.....

You mean all of Europe.

Yes, but the French tend to provoke  the urge to slap more than anyone else.

@KoP: Yeah, he was Italian, from one of the Northern Itallian states. I remember someone joking that the only way the French can ever be organized into a military threat is when they hire Itallian midgets to lead them (even though Napoleon wasn't particularly short for his time, either). Or when crazy women hearing voices lead them (Joan d' Arc).

[Glorfindel709]

The French Flag in all its glory...

[Persephone]

What's THIS, you ask? Why, it's an update, of course! www.fanfiction.net/s/6087280/12/ (The Edge Of The Grey Enigma, Chapter 12) Enjoy! 

[KnightofPhoenix]

As a lover of the French language, I have to say that you people are a bit too mean