12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

So Dawn of War is an RTS? What about Warhammer? What's that about?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Warhammer 40K is a tabletop game, with a massive lore (which I love). The Dawn of War series is an RTS based on that universe.

Actually, I think it's more appropriate to call Dawn of War an RTT. There is no base building and much more focus on tactics, taking cover, firing arcs and abilities.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sounds cool. Doubt I'll be able to play any tabletop games, given my location, but i can at least check out the lore.

From what I saw in the video, is like DA, in the sense that gameplaywise, you form a party/group of different units with different abilities, and then go see how much ass you can kick, or is there a specific, long term objective?

[KnightofPhoenix]

You have commanders, or heroes. In the campaign, each faction has 4 commanders. You can replace them with honour guards if you want for the duration of the mission, which increases the pop cap as well. And then you have units, with different abilities and upgrades. You also have global abilities that you unlock. Between missions, you can customize your commanders with equipment and abilities as they level up. Your units can also be upgraded.

Every mission has an objective, which doesn't vary too much from mission to mission. It involves killing and blowing stuff up. Sometimes, you have to capture points and defend. Sometimes, you have to kill a boss like enemy.

The multiplayer / custom games (vs AI) work differently. Every faction has 3 commanders, essentially "sub-factions". They have different global abilities and unique units.There are 2 types of games, with different objectives. Either you destroy their HQ. Or you capture victory points and hold them to decrease your enemy's victory pool till it reaches 0.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 mars 2011 - 09:45 .

[Costin_Razvan]

There is a linear campaign in Retribution ( the stand alone expansion that I am playing ), there are some optional missions that you can or not take.

However in the original Dawn of War things were pretty damned different, you had the first 5 or so missions pretty linear but then it branched out: You had a galaxy map and different planets to go, you had strategic assets that could increase your inteligence before a mission, give you extra experience for your heroes, and also increase your chance of deploying to up to 3 times in a single day ( something dependent on how fast you were in a mission, how many enemies you killed, how many times your heroes were incapactitaded ).

Missions varied, there were some missions which where required to be done per the campaign but the majority had you either destroying enemy bases, assassinating enemy leaders or defending your strategic assets. Some missions only had a duration of several days ( you could only have one deployment per day unless you did well enough to warrant 1 or 2 more ). You had heroes which could level up to 20 and who you could customize with 5 trees where to spend your skill points on. You a lot of items to choose from and could sell extra items for xp.

Hell this RTT allowed for far greater customization then Mass Effect 2 did n it's characters and the ending of the campaign varied depending on how well you did, the goal was to prevent a race of creatures called Tyranids from taking over the sector ( think Darkspawn in space ). Each planet had a bar of infestation and if that bar got full on any planet you lost, similarly the higher the bar was the more stronger enemies you faced.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea, in DoW 2 and Chaos Rising (expansion), the campaign was more fleshed out in terms of story, customization..etc. The downside is that you can only play it as Space Marines.
While in Retribution, it's slightly simpler and shorter, but you can play it with 6 races, and bring more units on the battlefield.

So pros and cons with each.

[Joy Divison]

I saw your playthrough that you had on youtube. The flame thrower dudes looked like a lot of fun to play! That's always been my favorite weapon, must be the inner pyromaniac in me.

I was reminded about my research about when you said in the military, betraying a commander is unacceptable. I've done a lot of work on the 20 July assassination attempt on Hitler and understanding that perspective is absolutely necessary in being able to explain not only why Operation Valkyrie failed, but also why even in postwar Germany, only about 30% of those polled viewed it as the right thing to do.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 05 mars 2011 - 10:35 .

[Costin_Razvan]

In the military you take an oath, one that is drilled into you to take very bloody seriously: That you will serve your nation and her people, protect the laws of your nation, respect the military rules to the letter and those of your commanders in peace and in war.

To be willing to give your life for your country without hesitation and if the oath is broken to accept the harsh law of the country.

That oath is what one would call the very essence of a military man, why do you think Rommel did not participate in the plot despite knowing about it? Since it would have went against many things he stood for as general. Some people would want to look on those guys as heroes for trying to assassinate Hitler, I see them as traitors.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 mars 2011 - 11:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

If Rommels was really so eager to be true to his oath, he should have not only refused to join the conspirary, he should have reported it. He did neither.

Why do you think Rommels committed suicide? Because they found out he was directly or indirectly active in the plot. He might have rejected assassination, based on pragmatic grounds. But he wanted Hitler out of the way. In essence, he wanted a coup d'Etat.

Since Hitler was leading his nation to ruin without caring that much (he came to the conclusion that it's natural, the Russians proved they are the superior race) and since those generals' loyalty was ultimately to Germany and not its Fuhrer (I am sure he would disagree), I do not see them as traitors in a broad sense. Traitors technically maybe, but they were loyal to Germany.

Just like Napoleon is by no means a traitor to France when he organized a coup d'Etat against the Directory. Just like Loghain would not have been a traitor to Ferelden if he eliminated the brat Cailan before Ostagar.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mars 2011 - 12:19 .

[Joy Divison]

An army cant function with the value of oath and absolute primacy on obedience. I think Sun Tzu best articulated how important the concept of command and obedience.

The King of Wu challenged Sun Tzu to make soldiers out of his 100 cocubines. Sun Tzu said he could.

Sun Tzu taught the concubines how to drill and march and then appointed the King's favorite two at head to act as leaders. Sun Tzu asked if his instructions were clear. The two said yes.

SunTzu then ordered the concubines to forum up a march. When the two head concubines began to laugh instead of relaying his orders and drilling the other 100, Sun Tzu said, "If commands are clear and soldiers disobey, it is the fault of the general." He then ordered the king's two favorite concubines to be beheaded as an example to the next two concubines who were appointed leaders.

Sun Tzu then repeated his instructions the concubines form up and march. The new appointed leaders immediately and efficiently carried out Sun Tzu's orders.

The King of Wu then appointed Sun Tzu as his general.

Costin: What you said was rather elegantly put, would you mind if I quoted it?

Rommel committed suicide bc/ he wanted to save his family.  I studied him a lot and it is by no means clear he had knowledge of the 20 July plot.  Keeping you mouth shut about a conspiracy you have at best vague and imprecise knowledge is far removed from betraying an oath.  He did, indeed, see Hitler as an obstacle to either better direction of the war or a chance at a separate peace, but there is no way to know what he would have done, if anything, on 20 July because he was severely wounded on 17 July.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 06 mars 2011 - 02:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Of course the army is based on drilling the idea of absolute loyalty in everyone's heads. However I do not attribute intrinsic value to loyalty to an inefficient government or a delusional leader. I do not see it as treason, as a value judgment, to turn against either.

And ultimately, the winner decides who the traitor is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Skadi
There is another mission type. Run for your life as the Ordo Malleus performs Exterminatus orbital bombardement. lol that mission was funny and hectic!

[Giggles_Manically]

Until the Tau show up I am meh on the DoW games right now.

The other groups are fun to play but I miss my Tau.
I was good playing as them in the table top game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

They did show up in Dawn of War Dark Crusade.

I really like the Tau, in terms of tactics, strategies, technology and lore. Too bad Dark Crusade did not have a lot of upgrades for the Crisis battlesuits, which are supposed to be highly customizable.

[Esbatty]

alschemid wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Well while I wait for my Morrigan replacement figure to show up in the mail, I can make some Loghain photocomics because who doesn't love Loghain dispensing tactical observations to various characters from other series and media.

Is it a promise?

Yes thats a promise. I'll work on one in the morning when I get out of work. Although some of the Alistairians have found out my plans and are demanding "Sordid Loghain" Hijinx.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course the army is based on drilling the idea of absolute loyalty in everyone's heads. However I do not attribute intrinsic value to loyalty to an inefficient government or a delusional leader. I do not see it as treason, as a value judgment, to turn against either.

And ultimately, the winner decides who the traitor is.

Irrelevant that your governement ( whom you as a military man have sworn to serve ) is inefficient, it IS still betrayal to turn against it regardless of reasons. Napoleon's marshals betraying him after Leipzig was a betrayal regardless of the fact the war long lost by then. 

As for Loghain...different time where modern military rules are not valid.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course the army is based on drilling the idea of absolute loyalty in everyone's heads. However I do not attribute intrinsic value to loyalty to an inefficient government or a delusional leader. I do not see it as treason, as a value judgment, to turn against either.

And ultimately, the winner decides who the traitor is.

Irrelevant that your governement ( whom you as a military man have sworn to serve ) is inefficient, it IS still betrayal to turn against it regardless of reasons. Napoleon's marshals betraying him after Leipzig was a betrayal regardless of the fact the war long lost by then. 

Betraying the government, maybe. Does that translate into betraying the nation?
Not necessarily. Napoleon turned against his government as well, but I don't see him as a traitor to France.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

leaders, governments, and politics are transitory things. The nation itself is a higher consideration above all.

So, while by the rules of the military, at face value, Loghain's retreat can be considered desertion and treason, it really comes down to what institution you consider the most important institution: the military, the current government, or the nation as an entity itself.

Of which, I personally believe the nation transcends all considerations, so I personally do not consider it betrayal or dereliction of duty of a military leader if they directly worked to remove a government that is either totalitarian and tyrranical, ineffective and weak, or downright dangerous. In fact, i consider the military to really be a servant of their nation's security, not their government or leadership's, and thus, removing a bad regime would be their duty.

My personal opinion, anyhow.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Baneblade is awesome! So is the Leman Russ Executioner.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mars 2011 - 05:22 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I have just been pondering the perfect, universal govornment for all of mankind. Felinitocracy. The absolute aknowledgement of cats as the supreme beings of the world, fit to rule all within it.

Think about it. It would stimulate economics, as the human servants of their feline overlords would be working hard to earn money so that they could keep buying better food, better toys, and cleaner litter to please their masters. Unemployment would dip as a result too, as would crime, since people would be spending their time at home, seeing to their furry master's needs, rather then mugging or breaking into people's houses.

War would become a thing of the past, since no one would dare bomb or invade other countries for fear of harming one of The Great Ones in foreign lands. Technological leaps and bounds would be made as we seek new and improved ways to amuse, serve, and advance the health and well being of our betters. We would seek to colonize other worlds for our kitty overlords to conquor, and come up with brilliant new ways to shape our own world to Their Will.

Of course, there are the heathen cat haters out there that will have to be dealt with, without question. They will either be exterminated, or sent to reducation camps until the see The Truth. But those are issues easily dealt with. Stringent laws must be passed enacting severe punishments for any who harm them. But other than that, I finally see a veritable utopia for all, if we only embrace the supremecy of the Cat.

I even think it can work for Ferelden, but the first step is not a strong leader with vision, or a weakening of the Chantry, but to break Fereldens of their obsession with smelly hounds. The rest will come naturally.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I volunteer to lead the Ordo Felinicus Inquisition to eradicate cat haters from within our ranks, and without.

[Giggles_Manically]

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@Kop: Excellent. Then we can proceed as planned.

@Giggles: Excellent example of why cats should rule absolutely. They are simply too cool for everything.

[Esbatty]

okay I've already taken several shots of Loghain in different situations and just haven't photoshopped them yet, but I wanted to pose a question to the Loghain Legion:

Which would ya'll prefer to see "Loghain in random situations" or "Loghain with his own talk show"? I can build a little desk and chair out of foam and cardboard in like an hour if you vote talk show, "Fortnight with Loghain Mac Tir".

[CalJones]

Get a dog and you become his master. Get a cat and you become his butler.

Esbatty - hmm, I think I'll leave that to you and your creative mind eh?