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[Costin_Razvan]

That was a local thing in Kirkwall, so I don't think it was expected by anyone that if the Circle there would revolt all others would follow. ( If Meredith hadn't been such an idiot it wouldn't have ).

My Hawke in full Champion Armor.



Skadi: The thing about the Chantry, well you see the Templars have a lot of power in Kirkwall because they forced a Viscount from power there and then elected a new one themselves after the previous one had dared shut off the Free Marches from Orlesian trade.

So yes, the Empress and the Divine are good friends.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It was not revolution yet, but all it needed was a spark, which is what Anders did (that was a spoiler btw, I didn't get there, but I suspect that he would do somethign similar when he asked me to disract the cleric). It was on the verge of revolution.

Ahhh, yes.....Anders......

He loves cats. And explosives. And is certifiably insane. And possesed by a demon. And has nice hair.

It was like Bioware combed my thoughts for my ideal of the perfect LI and manifested them into a pixelated climax. :wub:

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Oh, I don't doubt that they bosom buddies with pretty much paralell goals.

And sorry, dude but your Hawke is blocking my view of Varrick's chest hair. He needs to move, please.

[KnightofPhoenix]

[quote]Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Your fellows who are in the same boat as yourself, or the people of a society who not only imprisoned you, but thinks your kind are irredemably evil, and should be exterminated? [/quote][/quote]

That's what communists felt. That the proletariate would not fight each other in bourgeois wars of imperialism. Then WW1 happened and slapped them in the face.

But the mage situation is kind of different. I agree, I do not think many mages would be caught up in nationalist sentiments, when a mage revolution is happening. Revolution is contagious.

[quote]Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Anyway, regarding celene's planned invasion, I was under the impression it was just that: a political and military invasion, straight up. But you said the Divine was talking about an exalted march on Ferelden. Which is it, a normal war declared by the Empress, or a religous crusade? I ask because if it is an Exalted march, what reason is given for it? Divines generally don't call for exalted marches out of boredom, it's usually because the target has considered some grave offense against Chantry doctrine, or is directly threatening the Chantry itself.[/quote]

No, an exalted march on Kirkwall. The situation there is dangerous and could have easily slipped into revolution.

@ Costin
It's not a local event. It's an issue that threatens the status quo in all Andrastrian countries. And that threatens the Chantry as an institution.

Yes, many reasons that sparked the whole thing were local. But they deal with sensitive issues that affect all others. When revolutions spread, they tend to do so on an irrational level. Revolutionary frenzy. And that's dangerous.

Look at the Arab World. Something started in Tunisia, by one sad sod who burned himself alive, and look what happened.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 mars 2011 - 09:18 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Skadi:.....As you wish.





And for good measure a picture of my awesome armor.



Knight: Yet for all that happened I don't think many people expected the situation in Tunisia to escalate THIS far. ( Hell I don't think there isn't a leader of a nation on Earth that wasn't taken aback at how far it has gone ).

I am trying to get inside Celene's head, and just like Mubarak and Gaddafi did not expect the revolutions that occurred/are occurring it seems very possible to me that she would not expect the situation to escalate that far

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 mars 2011 - 09:31 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


That's what communists felt. That the proletariate would not fight each other in bourgeois wars of imperialism. Then WW1 happened and slapped them in the face.

But the mage situation is kind of different. I agree, I do not think many mages would be caught up in nationalist sentiments, when a mage revolution is happening. Revolution is contagious.

Yeah, the mage situation is very different. Unlike the proletariat, your average mage is well educated and spends most of their life in scholarly/research related pursuits. And, of course, they also have real/physical power. And about the only thing you could appeal to them on is to appeal to the more religous ones. Provided they are sufficently religous. In the case of the mages, the oppresion is probably more severe than it was for the 19th century prole, as generally, your average joe was being socially and economically exploited, more like the city elves. They still live in interconnected networks of friends and family, and are full partakers in the function of their society. With the mages, it is the opposite, and the societies they live in will be alien to them.

All my mages, but especially my canon, were the most apathetic towards nationhood/racial identity, as it seemed the most natural way to feel for a mage.

Yes, revolution is highly contagous, and uncontrolable once a situation has reached a critical point of no return.



No, an exalted march on Kirkwall. The situation there is dangerous and could have easily slipped into revolution.

Ah, ok. So it's just a run of the mill invasion. Which itself is interesting. Celene is interested in Ferelden, the Divine in Kirkwall. The two most powerful figures in Orlais seem to be divided in their objectives. Odd.

Ferelden must have some bigger importance to celene if she is willing to divide attention like that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Knight: Yet for all that happened I don't think many people expected the situation in Tunisia to escalate THIS far. ( Hell I don't think there isn't a leader of a nation on Earth that wasn't taken aback at how far it has gone ).

I am trying to get inside Celene's head, and just like Mubarak and Gaddafi did not expect the revolutions that occurred/are occurring it seems very possible to me that she would not expect the situation to escalate that far

True, they didn't expect it to go that far, though we have seen countries like Morocco and Syria reacting almost immediately.

But the mage thing is much more critical. I mean sure, protesters are not that dangerous unless en masse. But mages? Different story. Just a group of mages can cause enormous chaos. Imagine an entire circle rebelling.

I am not saying that Celene should be able to predict that. But she should have expected the worst and prepare for it. The situation in Kirkwall was not optimistic and that's clear right at the beginning of Act 3. If it wasn't for the Grand Cleric, I would not have been surprised if civil war started right there and then. Then Anders decided to do a stupid thing. Convenient for my Hawke, but it was stupid.

I trust no revolutionnary movement without a pragmatic leader. And Anders is not that leader.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Skadi:.....As you wish.

Thank you, Costin! Varrick's chest hair is so epic.

I am convinced that his chest hair is indeed, the current incarnation of The Beard in DA2. It  is no coincidence that Varick wears a pony tail AND earing, and is alive at the end to narrate the whole thing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Ah, ok. So it's just a run of the mill invasion. Which itself is interesting. Celene is interested in Ferelden, the Divine in Kirkwall. The two most powerful figures in Orlais seem to be divided in their objectives. Odd.

Ferelden must have some bigger importance to celene if she is willing to divide attention like that.

Other than more influence in the waking sea and Lyrium trade, both of which are long term investments really, I do not see what immediate value Ferelden can bring.

From what I know so far, Celene's plan is not making much sense to me.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I don't even know if that particular revolution will have a leader, pragmatic or otherwise. The mages have one common, powerful goal: Freedom from the Chantry. Beyond that....what? We know that even in good times, the Circles are divided by their different political fraternities, each with different ideas about what mages' roles are. The mages will be united to free oppression, but like Andraste's rebellion, there will be divisions within. To free themselves from the Chantry, the revolution does not need a leader: their rage at being abused and shackled for so long, coupled with the potantial power they command and collective goal, should be enough.

It's everything that comes later, once the bodies stop smoking, that they are not focused. Regardless, however, it was coming. The Grand Cleric (been reading the spiler forums, watching you tube vids) just seemed to weak and unwilling to grab the bull by the horns. And of course, it was long overdue for the Chantry. They ignored the warning signs too long, refused to bend and instead crushed the mages further, instead of working to encourage the moderates. So whatever has happened now, the Chantry has brought it upon themselves for dealing with the situation rationally and fairly.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Other than more influence in the waking sea and Lyrium trade, both of which are long term investments really, I do not see what immediate value Ferelden can bring.

From what I know so far, Celene's plan is not making much sense to me.

Maybe that's why. Maybe with the Free Marches having trouble, she wants to get in and seize Ferelden, for strategic reasons. Ferelden would give her more seaports closer to Kirkwall, for Exalted marches and all that. And given the Ferelden is still unstable, weak, and easily divided, perhaps she believes this is the best time to take care of them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
To free themselves from the Chantry, the revolution does not need a leader: their rage at being abused and shackled for so long, coupled with the potantial power they command and collective goal, should be enough.

Destroying is easy. I am concerned about building after and that's why I am skepitcal of all revolutions that lack a leader.

That's why for me, the best example of a succesful revolution, in a pragmatic sense and not idealist (idealists would just say it's a power grap), is the Abbasid Revolution. The 2nd Abbasid Caliph Abu Ja'far al-Mansur (the first one wa sick and ruled only shortly, so in essense, he led the revolution and the first years after) understood that the state cannot be founded unless the revolution ends. So he had revolutionary leaders, his uncle included, kill each other and then eliminated the survivors.  And he was pragmatic enough to keep a lot of institutions the Umayyads had and start gradual reforms.

That's the only kind of revolution I'd trust. The mages don't have any of this. They might have ideas, but I see no one capable of leading them through this and at the same time be charismatic enough to alleviate the fears of common people. Does Anders have a plan? Does he know exactly what needs to be done? How is he planning to face abominations durign the frenzy of revolution (very easy for demons to come in then)?
Anders is acting like a child.

Yes, the Chantry brought it onto itself. The same can be said about mages during the Tevinter era. I think both factions are being unreasonable. But it's realistic, it happens all the time. Fanaticism starts small, but you'd be surprised at how fast it affectz both sides. 

[Costin_Razvan]

So I take it you are going to kill Anders and side with the Templars then Knight? ( Anders can survive even if you side with the Templars though ).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Other than more influence in the waking sea and Lyrium trade, both of which are long term investments really, I do not see what immediate value Ferelden can bring.

From what I know so far, Celene's plan is not making much sense to me.

Maybe that's why. Maybe with the Free Marches having trouble, she wants to get in and seize Ferelden, for strategic reasons. Ferelden would give her more seaports closer to Kirkwall, for Exalted marches and all that. And given the Ferelden is still unstable, weak, and easily divided, perhaps she believes this is the best time to take care of them.

I think the immediate situation in Kirkwall is too critical for that.

There are reasons to want to conquer Ferelden. But at this time?
It would have made MUCH more sense if Celene called in an Exalted March on Kirkwall and then eliminated the competition directly. Venetians were sneaky like that, refer to the Sack of Constantinople in the 4rth Crusade. 

And would she really conquer Ferelden, just to ship troops to Kirkwall? She doesn't need them, Orlais is not that far. They were able to conquer Ferelden by sea before, why not Kirkwall? And it's opening an unnecessary second front. It would be smarter to bring Ferelden into a coalition against Kikwall.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So I take it you are going to kill Anders and side with the Templars then Knight? ( Anders can survive even if you side with the Templars though ).

No, my Gabriel Hawke is a mage and he would be stupid if he thought that the Templars would ever tolerate a mage Viscount for long.

What Anders did was stupid, but it was convenient. Gabriel sees himself as the leader Anders is not.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, the Chantry brought it onto itself. The same can be said about mages during the Tevinter era. I think both factions are being unreasonable. But it's realistic, it happens all the time. Fanaticism starts small, but you'd be surprised at how fast it affectz both sides. 

Of course it will, that's the whole point of this. A revolution is happening, and it is going to bring chaos and disorder to Thedas. Change. Change at every level. It's not supposed to necesarily be good or bad change. It can be both or neither, but it's going to happen either way.

Anders blowing up a Chantry childish? Arguable, but that's not the point. Extreme actions bring about change, good and bad, very quickly, whether they are desired or not. One can ignore diplomatic overtures and slow reforms and comprimise. One cannot ignore a religous temple full of very important people going boom. When you want an issue brought to the forefront of everyone's attention, nothing works quite as effectively as direct violence, as we know from recent events.

But regardless, the revolution is going to happen, and there are going to be high body counts on both sides, no matter what. No one on either side has a feasible long term plan or solution, and it's going to be that way for a while. I think this is the long term plan. I also think somehow, it is going to directly effect DA3 and the Morrigan/Flemmeth dilema. I think there is going to be widespread violence and magical chaos and destruction everywhere, which might cause a global weakening of the Veil allowing things from the Fade to move into the world in large numbers. maybe this is how god baby and Morrigan take over the world.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'd much rather have organized change, than chaos. Though chaos does provide opportunity, to thsoe who know how to sieze it. My point was, that Anders might instigate chaos, but he wouldn't know how to fix it later, nor to direct it. That's what I mean by childish. Thinking that blowing stuff up is going to fix problems is childish. Blowing stuff up, if necessary, is only the first and relatively easy step. People acting on the short term, on issues like this, imo should be qualified as being childish. And of course, that's many people.

And yea, Arcturus would want to groom his son to be the leader Thedas needs in these desperate times. The primary reason why he left Ferelden. He is hoping that the OGB will be the one to direct and tame change and bring a new order as quickly as possible.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 mars 2011 - 10:47 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Oh, yeah, going terrorist on people is certainly not going to solve problems, win firneds, or influence people, and is a very shortsighted thing to do when you have no clue what to do next. Revolution is fine and dandy when you have a good idea what you wish to replace the old order with, and have a good idea how you're gonna get there. When you don't, well....

I am not opposed to chaotic revolution myself, though organized revolution produces better long term results usually. What I do oppose is stagnation and stalemates. When put in a deadlock situation like that, anything is better than slow decay and death.

[Persephone]

Sorry if this is kinda OT but........

The DA2 forums are bloody scary. I hope that once my Sig Edition arrives (Played it over the weekend on my sister's PS3) and my game is registered, the Spoiler Forums (Which I haven't checked out) will be less insane.

Got a Loggy reference out of Alistair today. "It should have been me...not Loghain."

That was worth a billion bucks, heh.

[KnightofPhoenix]

After 7 years he still can't get over it? lol

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

After 7 years he still can't get over it? lol

LOL. Well, to be fair, this happened in Act I. So it was about 1-2 years. But still.

[DragonRacer13]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It was not revolution yet, but all it needed was a spark, which is what Anders did (that was a spoiler btw, I didn't get there, but I suspect that he would do somethign similar when he asked me to disract the cleric). It was on the verge of revolution.

Ahhh, yes.....Anders......

He loves cats. And explosives. And is certifiably insane. And possesed by a demon. And has nice hair.

It was like Bioware combed my thoughts for my ideal of the perfect LI and manifested them into a pixelated climax. :wub:

You forgot the scruff. He has most excellent scruff. My Lady Hawke wants to scratch it, dammit. And pretty, pretty brown eyes that beg you to love him, even as he slowly dissolves into Blondie McCrazy Pants.  Love that you can run off with him as fugitives in the end, all Bonnie & Clyde style.

[Addai]

Almost forgot to post this here.  Chapter 24 of The Arrangement

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Act 3 Varric quest had so much potential, but ended anti-climatically. Such a shame.

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So I take it you are going to kill Anders and side with the Templars then Knight? ( Anders can survive even if you side with the Templars though ).

No, my Gabriel Hawke is a mage and he would be stupid if he thought that the Templars would ever tolerate a mage Viscount for long.

What Anders did was stupid, but it was convenient. Gabriel sees himself as the leader Anders is not.

Yeah, as horrific (and a bit OOC considering how he was developed [not completely buying that that was all Justice, which IMO was one of the many story mechanics to achieve plot statuses]) as that was, there was a significant opportunity that revealed itself. Sacreligious act, but it was also an act of war, which seemed to be the only way the mages were going to get their freedom. Some of that was alluded to during the Circle Tower quest, where one of the blood mages mentions that their pleas essentially wind up on deaf ears.

That said, the smarter thing to do was destroy it when no one was inside. The message is still sent, and the innocents avoid unnecessary deaths.