12857 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

It's debatable whether it's really an act of war. He was not targeting a military installation (not a single Templar in there), or even an industrial target. He was targeting a place of worship, where not only priests stay, but also innocent civilians pray. That, plus the Grand Cleric was for the most part neutral and wanted peace. I think it can be reasonable argued that what Anders did was an act of terrorism. The deliberate attack against civilian targets for a political agenda.

It might be argued that the Grand Cleric would have ultimately sided with the Templars, but that still does not justify attacking a place of worship with people in it. Yes, now the mages will be heard. But what do you think the average Andrastrian is going to think after mages attacked a place of worship? What will Chantry loyalist or even Andrastrian mages think?

It was provoked and I can sympathize, but the act was extreme. Anders could have targetted Templars explicitly. Not resort to this. And yea, blowing the Chantry up when no one is in it would have been better, but still not that brilliant. The average joe is going to start hating mages, when we know that many were starting to sympathize.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ok, I just got to that part, but I'll play it tomorrow. But I saw the beginning and yea, I stand with what I said. What Anders did was foolish. Compromise was a possibility. Maybe not a permanent solution, but it would have given time to find one, something that he doesn't bother to do. He knows that there are many mages and even Templars who were starting to rebel against Meredith and were collaborating (before the hysterical imbecile mage Grace turned against her Templar ally). Heck, even Meredith herself expressed her sadness at what she's doing.

That said, he provided an opportunity for Hawke, even if the fool doesn't realize it. I really hope we have the option to side with the mages, but execute Anders regardless. The Circle and the mages must be dissociated from the extremists. The people will want blood for the act of terrorism, and killing Anders and other extremists might sate their understandable bloodlust. That's what I would do. Eliminate Meredith and most of her order who would challenge my power, but eradicate the radicals from within the mages.

Hopefully the game gives me that option. That said, there are a lot less choices in DA2 than in Origins.

I've always liked Anders very much. He was and still is my 2nd favorite companion in DA2.
But he needs to die. Arcturus would be saddened, but he would understand.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 05:04 .

[Esbatty]

It makes sense to take back Ferelden, it'd shut up the Orlesian Nobles who want their Ferelden holdings back; plus due to Orzammar and the Lyrium trade they could easily keep the Templars supplied without them going bonkers from Withdrawal and being unable to maintain the Exalted March.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Esbatty wrote...

It makes sense to take back Ferelden, it'd shut up the Orlesian Nobles who want their Ferelden holdings back; plus due to Orzammar and the Lyrium trade they could easily keep the Templars supplied without them going bonkers from Withdrawal and being unable to maintain the Exalted March.

That's assuming that Orzammar just decided to block trade. Why?

And Orlesian nobles are not as powerful as in Ferelden. I very much doubt that Celene is going to war in such a critical time, to please those idiots. Might be a side-effect, but the Orlesian crown is not supposed to be controlled by the whims of the nobility. 

They might want to take Orzammar, but barring the fact it will be a protracted siege that may last Maker knows how long, it will not gain them immediate benefits for them to deal with the mage uprising that is probably going to spread everywhere.

Invading Ferelden makes sense and I put control over the Waking Sea as the most important objective, but not at a time like this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 05:30 .

[Costin_Razvan]

What Anders did was exactly what was needed to start the Revolution, and there is no other choice against Templars and especially Meredith who is completely insane. As for killing him, the people will want mages dead regardless, it doesn't matter what he did or not as most people hate/fear mages regardless. ( and I think it idealist to believe the averege joe doesn't already hate mages )

 It might be argued that the Grand Cleric would have ultimately sided with the Templars, but that still does not justify attacking a place of worship with people in it. Yes, now the mages will be heard. But what do you think the average Andrastrian is going to think after mages attacked a place of worship? What will Chantry loyalist or even Andrastrian mages think?  

There were plenty of templars in the Chantry, and it does not matter what the average joe thinks or the loyalist or whatever. Even if Anders had not blown up the Chantry then it still would not have ended nicely as Meredith is really insane.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 mars 2011 - 12:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Meredith could have been stopped in another fashion. Even her own templar were turning against her. I am not denying that Meredith had to be stopped. But not like this.

And there are scales of hatred. We know that even the average joe and the nobles are not pleased with Meredith's actions and that many are sympathizing with mages, Templars included. They might not love mages, but for the moment, they were more annoyed at Meredith. Anders' act removed whatever support the people could have provided. And it's naive to think that all people want mages dead regardless of what they do, we know that's not true. Heck even Meredith before rejected the "Tranquil solution". But I won't be surprised if they start thinking that after what the fool Anders did.

And plenty of Tempalrs in the Chantry? You're basing it on the 4 Templars that appear in the cutscene? The Templars are stationed in the Gallows. The Chantry is not a military installation. It's a civilian target.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 12:44 .

[Costin_Razvan]

People may sympathize with mages in regards to stopping Meredith, I won't deny that, but I do not think for a second that they would ever allow mages to gain rights as human/elves beings deserve. I argued for a moderate solution regarding the Circle once and I don't think the Chantry would ever allow it.

Meredith is an extremist, she is the most responsible for the current crisis but stopping her would just mean stopping her madness. It would not mean for mages anywhere gaining anything other then a stop to the madness in Kirkwall

Blowing up the Chantry was not an act of terror, it was an assassination of a Grand Cleric who does support the measures taken by the Chantry against mages, not what Meredith does however. She is HARDLY an innocent and less so a civilian.

And what are you basing civilians dying anyway in the Chantry? It was night, and I had not seen one single civilian in there during that time in the game. The sisters and brothers of the Chantry can hardly be called civilians. This is a war between the Chantry and Mages, and all those part of the Chantry cannot be considered anything else the foes.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

It's debateable about whether or not blowing up the Chantry is an act of terrorism (the old argument of one man's terrorist being another man's freedom fighter), but I would agree with KoP: it was a foolish action, regardless, as it will most likely whip up sentiment against the mages. But to be honest (and I haven't played the game, just lurked in the spoilers forum) from what I've seen, the critical point has long been passed, and it really went beyond the point of any reasonable, rational conclusion. The Grand Cleric was ineffectual, only keeping a very superficial and weak peace. Whether Anders, or some other mage, or some crazy templar decided to make such a move, someone was going to do it. Though a more peaceful and rational resolution would have been far more desirable, I don't think by that point, it was possible any longer, despite a temporary calm before the storm. Things had progressed too far past the point of no return.

What is interesting more than anything to me is Anders own development. In Awakenings, he was probably the most laid-back mage in Ferelden, with no revolutionary urges or impulses, despite hating templars and the Chantry. He certainly agreed with alot of things that Chantry did (such as blood magic being a no-no, and a dislike for abusive magic), When Wynne was talking about the big meeting of mages in Cumberland, it was Anders who surprised me with his protest over the mages directly breaking free of the Chantry. He felt it would not end well, and more peaceful, less violent confrontation was better. Anders was definitely much more a moderate, despite his dislike of the Chantry and Circle.

Fast forward to DA2, and well....to put it mildly, Anders has undergone a change of heart, and we see him growing more and more extreme, the more abuse and cruelty he sees committed against mages. Not to mention the utterly petty and vile tranquiling of his lover for petty, cruel reasons. But ultimately, what we see is a man who was originally a moderate and laid back, become a supporter of extremism, because of the Chantry's continued abuse of power fed and pushed him more towards extreme measures. Knowing Bioware, I don't think this little piece of social commentary was by accident. And even not playing the game, it's pretty powerful.

From personal experience, attacking only military targets, while certainly more honorable, is not terribly effective. In the 1990's, Al Qaeda attacked mostly military/government targets (Khobar towers, Kenyan embassy, USS Cole, and I can say, such actions did nothing. The public largely ignored these attacks because they were against the military, and no one's attitude, nor foreign policy, changed.

Then 9/11 came. And people no longer could ignore the mid-east situation. The aftermath has been bad, true, and alot more people have suffered horribly for the actions of the few. But it worked like nothing else: they could no longer, no matter how bad they wanted to, ignore the mid-east or our own activity there and the effects of it. The post-effects of the attacks were horrible, and hundreds of thousands more have suffered as a result. But it not only got people's attention, it has forced alot of people, whether they wanted to or not, to come face to face with the reality of the failure our policy in the Middle east has been. And while right after the attacks, and for a few years after, there were are large number of people whose motto was "nuke the Arabs back into the Stone Age" there has been a signifigant shift in attitudes favoring rexamination of how our policy has been responsible for a good portion of the misery for both sides.

My point being, that sometimes, there comes a point where senseless acts of violence are the most effective way of forcing a situation. Not everything can be resolved rationally and sensibly, and I think the mage/Chantry conflict was well past that point, and given the unyielding nature of both sides of the conflict, the only way the stalemate is going to be broken is through extreme actions. I think there will be some great and bloody war first, and to be honest, I don't think it was ever possible for any other outcome. Even had Anders not gone Bin laden, someone else from either side would have done something extreme enough to spark off the violence. Sometimes, you just have to let things explode, let the pieces fall where they may, and then start from there.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Forgot to add: Yes, if you can execute Anders but still side with/support the mage struggle, it would send a powerful message, what while you support the mage's struggle for freedom and human dignity, you will not tolerate extremism or senseless violence from either side, including your own. Such a statement would certainly be powerful indeed, and probably win you some fence sitting allies in the process. But even then, I do not believe it would be enough to prevent a full on war, as I think the Chantry/mage divide has run too long, too deeply, and at such a fundemental level, that a violent revolution is inevitable, and must run its course to release the tension.

[nos_astra]

When Bethany is sent ot the Circle her Code entry says she settles in and even supports the Circle - and is trying to avoid trouble with the few fanatics among the templars.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 mars 2011 - 01:46 .

[Costin_Razvan]

This is an age where communication was difficult to achieve even across a single nation let alone an entire continent. the reality is that the ones knowing Anders did are limited to begin with and they are either with Hawke or die during the final battle without being able to reveal it to others.

People would know that a mage did it, but they could blame it on any mage including Hawke himself. It might be able to help but I just don't think killing him as all that beneficial.

 When Bethany is sent ot the Circle her Code entry says she settles in and even supports the Circle - and is trying to avoid trouble with the few fanatics among the templars.

Bethany is...young and idealist and perhaps not the best example to bring up.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 mars 2011 - 02:11 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Anyone else worried that the Chantry may just be pissed enough to side against the wardens over what Anders did?

I mean Cassandra says: "That WARDEN Anders"

[Costin_Razvan]

The Chantry is not a concern any longer for anyone. The mages have rebelled and the Templars have abandoned the Divine to hunt for them. It's going to be a very brutal war, children will be slaughtered by templars if they show any magic or they will turn into demons.

Blood Magic will run rampant and the Andrastian Nations might just fall because of it, but frankly given the centuries of oppressive rule by the Chantry against mages this is really the only way it could have gone. Even without Meredith, Anders and Hawke it was just going to be a matter of time until it happened.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 mars 2011 - 02:29 .

[Giggles_Manically]

DA3 is going to be messy.

A chantry collapsing, the Qunari possibly invading, mages and templars running amok, nations at war, and possibly ANOTHER blight (hinted at in Awakening).

Should be fun.

[Costin_Razvan]

Yet through all of this chaos there is only one nation who will emerge stronger then before: Tevinter. Fereldan, Orlais, Nevarra, Antiva and the Free Marches will crumble under blood magic and demons. Rivain will fall most likely, the Anderfels will be utterly destroyed or the Wardens will mass their power to save it from the mages.

The Qunari will suffer a great deal if they invade. So all in all you are right Giggles, the biggest mess that anyone could ever expect just is about to start.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 mars 2011 - 02:55 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Plus... Flemeth is up to something BIG as well.

Wow now DAO and DA2 seem tiny in comparison to what is coming.
Important for sure, and causing after effects but DA3 is going to show a continent ripped to shreds.

[Costin_Razvan]

Redid the final battle on Nightmare. It was....fun ( if you call fighting for over 20 minutes against her "fun" for **** sake not even WoW bosses lasted this long! )

Fun thing, I did Zevran's quest and Nathaniel Quest ( by using the console to trigger it ) and they both appeared in the final battle, ah good times.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 mars 2011 - 03:06 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Merrill and Varric made it easier for me.

She kept debuffing her, while Varric just kept a constant damage on her.
I only had Aveline and my tanking Hawke though.

The Mecha-Andrastae part was a bit annoying.
I beat it on Hard.

I still have not got the courage for a nightmare run yet.

[Costin_Razvan]

On Nightmare there is such a thing as friendly fire. You can imagine how fun THAT is.

Hint: Fenris one shots anyone near him with Mighty Blow, well any of your companions not the enemy.

It wasn't hard by any means once I had enough potions...it was just LONG.

[Giggles_Manically]

I had enough grenades left to level a city block at that point.

The uber ones you can get in Act 3 I think are just unfair on mobs.
Still its an intense fight.

Interesting to see people you help pop up.
For all of... 10 seconds before Meredith kills them.

Aveline is the only reason I made it out of there, damn she just does not die when maxed out.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Yet through all of this chaos there is only one nation who will emerge stronger then before: Tevinter. Fereldan, Orlais, Nevarra, Antiva and the Free Marches will crumble under blood magic and demons. Rivain will fall most likely, the Anderfels will be utterly destroyed or the Wardens will mass their power to save it from the mages.

The Qunari will suffer a great deal if they invade. So all in all you are right Giggles, the biggest mess that anyone could ever expect just is about to start.

I agree, a global scale collapse of everything is on the horizon, and something even worse is in the workings.

As I mentioned before, the fact that large scale bloodshed and chaos is inevitable, coupled by the fact it will be largely be fueled and fought with magic, is probably going to have some major negative effect on the Veil, maybe irreversably weakening it to the point the flood gates for demons and spirits will open. This could have some major effect on the next Blight.

But more than that, it definitely seems to be falling into place, in regards to Flemmeth and Morrigan's mysterious omens and plans. So regardless, Bioware is setting the stage for en epic and awesome finale.

[Giggles_Manically]

I wonder if the next game will be set in Tevinter?

Maybe we will play someone who rallies Tevinter back to its former glory before its collapse?
Think about it really.

Tevinter is smack dab in the middle of everything that could go down.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

People may sympathize with mages in regards to stopping Meredith, I won't deny that, but I do not think for a second that they would ever allow mages to gain rights as human/elves beings deserve. I argued for a moderate solution regarding the Circle once and I don't think the Chantry would ever allow it.

But blowing stuff up on its own will?

What is Anders plan? What is his vision? And even if he had a vision, how does he think he can put it in place?
Did he think about how the mages are going to get the trust of the common peopel after that? Did he think about how to combat abominations (himself being one)? Did he think about how to avoid possessions in the middle of a revolution (I think mages will be more susceptible now)? Did he think about the international repercussions? Did he think about what other mages elsewhere will go through? 

My main issue is this. Anders displays no awareness and planing whatsoever. I wouldn't mind his act that much if he at least had a plan, and knew how to deal with it. He obviously did not. Again, what he did might provide an opportunity. But a useful fool remains a fool. He is acting like a typical pseudo-anarchist idealist.
 

Meredith is an extremist, she is the most responsible for the current crisis but stopping her would just mean stopping her madness. It would not mean for mages anywhere gaining anything other then a stop to the madness in Kirkwall

That's certainly not Anders intention. He wants a full scale war between mages and Templars.
Saying that he'd rather die fighting than live a slave. A nice rethoric. Who appointed him to make that choice for every other mage? What qualifies him to make that choice? 

And do you honestly believe that the Templars elsewhere are not going to react? You think the mages elsewhere are not going to care what will happen? The entire point of DA2 is leading Thedas to the brink of war. This is not an isolated event and Anders should have known better. 

Blowing up the Chantry was not an act of terror, it was an assassination of a Grand Cleric who does support the measures taken by the Chantry against mages, not what Meredith does however. She is HARDLY an innocent and less so a civilian.

And what are you basing civilians dying anyway in the Chantry? It was night, and I had not seen one single civilian in there during that time in the game. The sisters and brothers of the Chantry can hardly be called civilians. This is a war between the Chantry and Mages, and all those part of the Chantry cannot be considered anything else the foes.

This is a dangerous belief. The Chantry is not an organization solely responsable for mages. It's a religious organization, with people flocking in for reasons other than mages. Those priests may have nothing to do with this and might in fact disagree with Meredith, like a lot of them are.

But it's semantics and besides the point. I know sometimes innocents must die. My main issue, barring the lack of planning, is the reactions that will result in. The common people, nobles and even many Templars could have collaborated with the mages to remove Meredith, but that became impossible due to Anders' foolishness. Even the most outspoken mage against Meredith, Orsino, thinks that what Anders did was foolish.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 04:11 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I wonder if the next game will be set in Tevinter?

Maybe we will play someone who rallies Tevinter back to its former glory before its collapse?
Think about it really.

Tevinter is smack dab in the middle of everything that could go down.

And not to mention that it does have connections with the famed Black City.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

And further more, mage rebellions aren't an issue for the Tevinter, since they have managed to remain a magocracy, and their Chantry is very different from the orlesian one, so on that level, a mage-wide rebellion in other nations would probably benefit them. The major problem for Tevinter would be a wide-scale slave rebellion, especially with the elven slaves. Revolition is contagious, and revolution on one cause can inspire other to revolt and fight for their own causes. And of course, there's the qunari, but seeing how magic is the major tactical and technical advantage of human nations over the qunari, the Tevinter should't have too much difficult than normal.

So it seems that the whole world is going to hell. And hopefully, it will be me that gets to drive the bus there.