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Why Teyrn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age


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#8576
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 Though a more peaceful and rational resolution would have been far more desirable, I don't think by that point, it was possible any longer, despite a temporary calm before the storm. Things had progressed too far past the point of no return.


Meredith had to be stopped. Bloodshed was unavoidable. But there were other ways. Meredith's rule was very fickle. Her own Templars were rebelling and many were collaborating with mages. Cullen, emphasis Cullen, even doubts Meredith. The nobility despise her, because she essentially took over the office of Viscount and put down some noble houses who wanted to claim the position. The guards under Aveline also dislike her because she is trying to get control of the guardsmen. The common people are sympathising with mages.

A coalition could have been established to deal with Meredith. Would that on its own offer a permanent solution?  No. But I do not understimate the importance of templars and mages collaborating to fight an oppressive regime. It's dealing with the symptoms, but would have offered a path to deal with the problem more effectively. Under the right leadership. 


My point being, that sometimes, there comes a point where senseless acts of violence are the most effective way of forcing a situation. Not everything can be resolved rationally and sensibly, and I think the mage/Chantry conflict was well past that point, and given the unyielding nature of both sides of the conflict, the only way the stalemate is going to be broken is through extreme actions. I think there will be some great and bloody war first, and to be honest, I don't think it was ever possible for any other outcome. Even had Anders not gone Bin laden, someone else from either side would have done something extreme enough to spark off the violence. Sometimes, you just have to let things explode, let the pieces fall where they may, and then start from there.


But they are not the ones who are fixing the problem. They are the ones who are making it worse, which will force the rational and sensible people to come with a solution.

Like I said before. They are useful fools sometimes. But they remain fools. And they should be eliminated if a solution is to be found. I don't think they should be attributed with the credit of change. The most they accomplished is being loud and drawing attention. But the actual real work is done by others, who usually despise them.


As for executing Anders being useless. It might not sate the bloodlust of many people and understandably so. But it's certainly much better than doing nothing. 

I will not be executing Anders based on an ethical concern. It's a Raison D'Etat. Hawke wants to be Viscount and he cannot allow those who did this to get away with it and to alleviate the anger of the masses, the one responsable has to be executed. Publically would be better.

Will that solve the problem? Not entirely, or even mostly. But it's better than nothing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 04:04 .


#8577
Costin_Razvan

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Ah I see then, well I should point out that getting power only happens if you side with Meredith and slaughter all the mages but as you mentioned the Templars would never allow Hawke to retain power.

Anders is really not issue to that as you kill him without most knowing. Keeping him alive would problably serve more purpose for your plans since mages would see him as a hero, while killing him you alienate some of them/

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 mars 2011 - 04:08 .


#8578
Giggles_Manically

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What is the point then in grabbing the crown for like 5 minutes then in DA2?

#8579
KnightofPhoenix

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

You can't get Viscount anyway if you side with the mages, you go into the wilds on the run for that since the templars want to hunt you down.

The only way to take the Crown is to side with the Templars, and they won't allow you to keep as you said so yourself.


Really?

**** you Anders.

But it makes sense. Everything considered.  Oh well, I guess my rogue female Hawke will get that position (she will romance anders and execute him. I am a sucker for tragedy).
Hmm, that might make Gabriel reconsider executing Anders. It still has merit, but if the Templars are chasing him, it might be best to have an ally. And he wouldn't have to worry about managing a state.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 04:09 .


#8580
Costin_Razvan

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You lose the Crown anyway even if you kill Anders and side with the Templars, seems the Chantry doesn't want even the mighty champion who helped them to retain power.

Life's a **** like that, but I think it FAR more wise to side with the mages and you know not ****** them while you also spare Anders.

Sebastian will abandon you however and return to Starkhaven to raise an army, but he only wants Anders dead not Hawke so it's for the best for Hawke anyway if you want to kill Anders later on ( just not there and then ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 mars 2011 - 04:15 .


#8581
KnightofPhoenix

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Even as a non-mage?

#8582
Costin_Razvan

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Yep, why do you think Cassandra can't find Hawke if he was ruling Kirkwall? Since he was removed from power.

#8583
KnightofPhoenix

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Hmm, that's right I forgot. Wasn't the game supposed to be about a rise to power? Some rise that was.

HA! The Warden is much better :P

#8584
Costin_Razvan

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Yes well Hawke's rise to power as champion was well done I think, and he either becomes the leader of a revolution or he can be hunted by mages and not allowed any power by the Chantry.

I feel it best to spare Anders, side with mages and have Sebastian raise an army.

Then give up Anders to Sebastian and get him back on your side.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 mars 2011 - 04:19 .


#8585
KnightofPhoenix

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Well the former is certainly better. That's what Gabe will be doing.

#8586
KnightofPhoenix

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BTW, I still did not get the reference to Orlais invading Ferelden. When do I get it? I still have not started the final quest, I am slaughtering gangs to raise exp.

#8587
Costin_Razvan

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You need to have Alistair as King and he mentions in a cameo.

If Anora is Queen you don't get it.

#8588
KnightofPhoenix

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Soo...does this have to do with Alistair being an idiot and Celene thinking she can handle him easily? What the hell is he doing in Kirkwall anyways, when Orlais is about to invade.

But I doubt they'd make Celene invade Ferelden only if it's ruled by Alistair. As much I would like it, it seems unlikely.

#8589
Costin_Razvan

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It happens even if she is married to Anora though, it just so happens that Anora does not make a cameo.

#8590
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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That's weird. No solo queen Anora cameos, then? The fear of an orlesian invasion of Ferelden, I think, would have more signifigance had Anora informed you, given who her father was and her husband's failed hare-brained plot to marry Celene.

Very disappointing for me, because since Anora rules solo in both my canons, I wanted to see how she would fare, and what sorts of actions she would take in response to this brewing threat. Sigh. Despite my adoration of Alistair, I do not want him as king. For not only for the sake of his own happieness and welfare, but also for Ferelden. I would really rather see Anora deal with orlais, since for her, it's personal as well as political.

#8591
KnightofPhoenix

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I think Anora would be too busy running Ferelden and preparing than visiting Kirkwall in the middle of a crisis. That said, we should have at least some news of her. Maybe an ambassador or something. That's disappointing.

#8592
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Well, similar lack of aknowledgement occured in Awakening too. It's annoying. Though at least, I hear Warden Alistair will make an appearance in DA2, unlike Awakening.

yeah, even an ambassador saying Anora was busy dealing with an impending invasion and can't chat right now would have been a nice aknowledgement.

#8593
Giggles_Manically

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Its referenced in Alistair's cameo KoP.

#8594
KnightofPhoenix

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And once again, Varric proved to be the wisest: "I am sick of Templars and mages".

#8595
MKDAWUSS

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Soo...does this have to do with Alistair being an idiot and Celene thinking she can handle him easily? What the hell is he doing in Kirkwall anyways, when Orlais is about to invade.

But I doubt they'd make Celene invade Ferelden only if it's ruled by Alistair. As much I would like it, it seems unlikely.


She probably wouldn't need to. Especially if he's unmarried.

#8596
Giggles_Manically

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I cant believe that Cassandra lets Varric go.
He killed more templars then my tank Hawke did.

#8597
Glorfindel709

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Talking to the barkeep at the Hanged Man "Strangest thing, apparently the pidgeon population has taken a nose dive in Ferelden. What kind of sick creature targets those innocent things?"

Hehehehe go Shale!

#8598
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...


But they are not the ones who are fixing the problem. They are the ones who are making it worse, which will force the rational and sensible people to come with a solution.

Like I said before. They are useful fools sometimes. But they remain fools. And they should be eliminated if a solution is to be found. I don't think they should be attributed with the credit of change. The most they accomplished is being loud and drawing attention. But the actual real work is done by others, who usually despise them.


As for executing Anders being useless. It might not sate the bloodlust of many people and understandably so. But it's certainly much better than doing nothing. 

I will not be executing Anders based on an ethical concern. It's a Raison D'Etat. Hawke wants to be Viscount and he cannot allow those who did this to get away with it and to alleviate the anger of the masses, the one responsable has to be executed. Publically would be better.

Will that solve the problem? Not entirely, or even mostly. But it's better than nothing.



My point wasn't that Ander's folly was going to fix anything.  Of course it won't. Pointless violence and revolutionary bombing will not fix the problem, it will only cause the situation to explode into chaos, and no one will be able to control it then. And yes, locally, and for the short term, the situation could have at least cooled down slightly, and the psycho b*tch templar commander dealt with. But while the situation might have cooled slightly temporarily, it wouldn't be long, or take much, before the whole thing exploded, and someone did worse than bomb a Chantry.

But in the long term? I don't think it made any difference. No matter how hard anyone tries, it will be too little, to late. And personally, I do not think a revolution of this magnitude, fueled by the reasons and emotions it has created, is even remotely controllable. Trying to channel or direct a revolution that encompases this much is like trying to control or harness a volcano or a hurricane. On this scale, the revolution now becomes less a political/social movement and more a destructive force of nature, that must errupt and release all that stored, wild energy. And like any great force of nature, it will leave annihilation in it's wake. But eventually, it will exhaust it's raw energy and burn out, and maybe then, after the worst is over and the fury and fanaticism of both sides has been spent, more lasting accord or comprimise be reached.

Just my own personal opinion of everything, really. Haven't played the game, as I said, and it's possible I might reach another conclusion once I've actually played. My own theory is sometimes, it is better to give people the rope they need to hang themselves, because about the only time lessons ever stick in the human collective is when they are violently and painfully delivered. Sad, but it's an opinion I've formed through my own experience. People don't learn until they have done something irreversibly stupid and suffer because of it.

#8599
Giggles_Manically

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Glorfindel709 wrote...

Talking to the barkeep at the Hanged Man "Strangest thing, apparently the pidgeon population has taken a nose dive in Ferelden. What kind of sick creature targets those innocent things?"

Hehehehe go Shale!

What is a speed griffon?

#8600
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 Trying to channel or direct a revolution that encompases this much is like trying to control or harness a volcano or a hurricane. On this scale, the revolution now becomes less a political/social movement and more a destructive force of nature, that must errupt and release all that stored, wild energy.


It can and has been done, with issues that affect millions of people and not just one group.  Revolution will always have excesses, but it can be controlled, if it was directed and orchastrated from the very beginning.
It can't anymore after what Anders did. Or at least it will be very difficult to achieve. But that's different.



Just my own personal opinion of everything, really. Haven't played the game, as I said, and it's possible I might reach another conclusion once I've actually played. My own theory is sometimes, it is better to give people the rope they need to hang themselves, because about the only time lessons ever stick in the human collective is when they are violently and painfully delivered. Sad, but it's an opinion I've formed through my own experience. People don't learn until they have done something irreversibly stupid and suffer because of it.


I get what you are saying. That in the larger scheme of things, this will move things forward. And the issue will be delt with, one way or the other. I don't disagree. I do think Anders provided an opportunity. That still does not change the fact that those reckless extremists are idiots, which you agree with.

I am not saying this is a catastrophe beyond repair. Destruction is sometimes necessary to start anew. I would have preferred a more moderate solution, which I think could have been possible, if the states stepped in and weakened the Chantry, which I think would have been an axiomatic result when Orlais weakens. But now that this happened, though it will cause much bloodshed, it can ultimately have positive results.

What Arcturus would be doing right now is grooming the OGB to be the one to fix the mess. And that will require breaking the extremists on both sides.

EDIT: and to show you how reckless Anders was. I sided with the mages, and right now who am I fighting?
Mages gone insane and demons.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 06:40 .