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[Giggles_Manically]

I can simply see Bioware saying: Flemeth killed both the Warden and Hawke.

Just to make things easier on themselves... although Origins did have quite a few affects on DA2.

[Costin_Razvan]

EDIT: and to show you how reckless Anders was. I sided with the mages, and right now who am I fighting?
Mages gone insane and demons.

Yes...that was to be expected.

Did you kill him?

[MKDAWUSS]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I can simply see Bioware saying: Flemeth killed both the Warden and Hawke.

Just to make things easier on themselves... although Origins did have quite a few affects on DA2.

As much a cop out that would be, that would actually make quite a few bold statements, some which might not be such a bad thing to have. It sends the message that both served their purpose, both got played, and both aren't as powerful as the players thought they were. If it's done right, it can be a great punchline (gotcha-type plot twist) and be a great development to the overall plot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

EDIT: and to show you how reckless Anders was. I sided with the mages, and right now who am I fighting?
Mages gone insane and demons.

Yes...that was to be expected.

Did you kill him?

No, I did not. He can still be useful.

[Giggles_Manically]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I can simply see Bioware saying: Flemeth killed both the Warden and Hawke.

Just to make things easier on themselves... although Origins did have quite a few affects on DA2.

As much a cop out that would be, that would actually make quite a few bold statements, some which might not be such a bad thing to have. It sends the message that both served their purpose, both got played, and both aren't as powerful as the players thought they were. If it's done right, it can be a great punchline (gotcha-type plot twist) and be a great development to the overall plot.

The warden can fight a bloody archdemon toe-to-toe and win.
They can kill an aspect of Flemeth just like that.

Hawke can fight demons and monsters like that as well.
I doubt that Flemeth can just take them out so easily.

[KnightofPhoenix]

God, the farewell dialogue with companions before the battle starts is SO underwhelming when compared to that of Origins!

[MKDAWUSS]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I can simply see Bioware saying: Flemeth killed both the Warden and Hawke.

Just to make things easier on themselves... although Origins did have quite a few affects on DA2.

As much a cop out that would be, that would actually make quite a few bold statements, some which might not be such a bad thing to have. It sends the message that both served their purpose, both got played, and both aren't as powerful as the players thought they were. If it's done right, it can be a great punchline (gotcha-type plot twist) and be a great development to the overall plot.

The warden can fight a bloody archdemon toe-to-toe and win.
They can kill an aspect of Flemeth just like that.

Hawke can fight demons and monsters like that as well.
I doubt that Flemeth can just take them out so easily.

But Flemeth still evaded death at the hands of the Warden.

Also, keep in mind that Flemeth also saved both of their butts. If it wasn't for her, the Warden would have died at Ostagar and Hawke would have died outside Lothering. And I'm not sure how much gameplay mechanics factor into the overall story, but I will concede the point that both PCs became more powerful as time went on. However, I think Flemeth is quite capable of disposing both of them.

The Warden's purpose was to spawn the OGB (whether he did so or not isn't the issue, that's why he was chosen out of all the Wardens), and Hawke's was to start the war that would bring down the Circle and the Chantry (who she stood by at the end is irrelevant, as word is spread of the event and war starts either way). Their usefulness ran out. Once the Chantry and Circle fight their war and essentially wipe themselves out, Flemeth can continue whatever it is she intends to do (and the OGB could be a factor if present).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ok, Meredith might be paranoid. But for good bloody reasons! WTF are you doing Orsino?!

[Costin_Razvan]

If you think what Orsino is doing is bad then you really aren't prepared for what is to come. I am curios what did you make of Sebastian leaving however.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@ KoP: My canon mage would have probably executed Anders had she been there. And Anders was about the only person left in Thedas at the end of Witch Hunt who she cared about or felt any bond to, as she became very close to him, because they were remarkably similar on so many levels. Everyone else that she ever loved is dead or disappeared.

So yeah, I totally believe Anders actions were the actions of a completely insane fool who was driven purely by ideological fanaticism and was beyond the point of reason. Though it certainly appeals to the anarchist within, and I couldn't supress a smile watching Anders and his red beam make things go boom when I watched it on you tube.

But my own personal reverence for chaos and anarchy is a personal one. The more rational, realistic side of my facepalmed when I watched it. And unlike the Alistair/Loghain debate, I certainly wouldn't argue against his execution, or how absolutely short-sighted and idotic his actions are, given the immediate circumstances in Kirkwall and all. The point you continually drive home is indeed, a valid one. Revolutions without focus or direction end up indiscriminately destroying everything in their wake.

But, since I haven't played the game, I am mainly interested in its long term, wider effects and consequences. Which won't be pretty, but not all the changes will end badly, Some places and some people might end up becoming better for it. And yeah, you will need someone pretty epic to be able to sort out the mess. So I hope that Arcturus and Morrigan are paying close attention from wherever the hell it is they are currently hiding.

Despite it all, though, I'm definitely going to romance him. Not only because I'm an Anders fan, but the potential for tragedy, heartbreak, and loss in such a romance is too much for me to pass up. I too am a sucker for ill-fated love matches, which is probably why my canon ending for DAO involves Alistair dumping my Warden, then sacrificing himself on the AD, as opposed to a happier ending.

God, now I'm all excited about DA2, but shall have to wait a couple months before I can get it. Grrrrr.

[Costin_Razvan]

What Anders did would greatly benefit a Fereldan leader who took a more lenient stance against the Circle, this is why I appreciated what he did since he all but destroyed one of the most important allies Celene has.

[Giggles_Manically]

Or gave her a huge bonus if she can swing the masses to her side with fear.

Prepare for a Pope Urban II style speeches if the divine is any good.

[Costin_Razvan]

She is welcome to try as she will find dealing with blood mages and demons quite....interesting.

As in they will devour her land whole, and no amount of armed mobs can stand against them.

[Giggles_Manically]

Well if you watch the ending cutscene a mage cant stop a bloke from sneaking up behind them all that well.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What Anders did would greatly benefit a Fereldan leader who took a more lenient stance against the Circle, this is why I appreciated what he did since he all but destroyed one of the most important allies Celene has.

Yes, very true. It will also make it easier for him to bring the mages under the authority of the crown to fight off Celene. it is about the only scenario I've seen, where the mages could be rallied to fight in a nationalist based war. Because orlais is the seat of the Chantry. Keeping Ferelden independant would dovetail with their own struggle. What's bad for orlais is bad for the Chantry. Ferelden's circle, I think, is the country least likely to have wide scale rebellion from it's mages, especially if Celene decided to invade or make some other agressive move. I am not certain how Nevarra's circle would fare. Their royal family, from what I understand, are pretty devout Andrastians. The templars themselves seem to have alot of pull there. But were nevarra to directly attack Orlais with the intention of conquoring and annihilating it's power base, I'd imagine the mages there could get pretty excited. The problem is, is whether or not the nevarran leadership are such devout Andrastians that they simply take over the Chantry and make it their own tool of power.

Ferelden, though a deeply Andrastian nation, does not seem to be as strictly dogmatic, and given the disaster that was the Orlesian occupation, their hatred of Orlais rivals their devotion to the Chantry. Of all the Andrastian nations, Ferelden seem to be the most fertile place for an opposing Andrastian sect to develop. Which would likely be of benefit to the mages, as well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If you think what Orsino is doing is bad then you really aren't prepared for what is to come. I am curios what did you make of Sebastian leaving however.

Let me guess. Meredith is under some kind of spell, or curse, or something possessing her. It's hinted at in the loading screen.

As for Sebastian. As I said earlier, I was grooming him to return to Starhaven and be an ally as my Hawke was planning to become Viscount. Of course that didn't happen.
But yea, Sebastian essentially said he will destroy Kirkwall entirely. That's like...even more extreme than Meredith...

Like you said, I might give him Anders just to keep him off our backs. But not sure how crucial that would be, if everyone in Thedas is going to gang up on the revolutionnaries.

And I have to say, until now, late act 3 is anti-climactic. Late act 2 was awesome! With awesome soundtracks. Here? It's just dull, and it's bugged. The "farewell speeches" were extremely underwhelming. Hawke's speech is meh, Shepard's was better (can't believe I said that). A main reason is the lack of music and ambience. 

@ Skadi.
Yes, I am going to make my female rogue romance and kill him. She wouldn't stop loving him, but she feels she has to do it.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 07:47 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Skadi.
Yes, I am going to make my female rogue romance and kill him. She wouldn't stop loving him, but she feels she has to do it.  

Yeah, I think I'm planning on the same. My mage will romance him and run off with him, my rogue will regretfully slay him because he forced her to do it, but love him the rest of her life.

So, I can enjoy two Skadi-rrific endings:

One, where Skadi Hawke, horrified and enraged buries her murder knife into his back, and holds him in her arms as he dies in the light of the flaming Chantry ruins, her heart and soul irreversibly broken, but necessity drives her forward, regardless.

The other, where Skadi Hawke, shocked and delighted, pats his back and says "Atta boy, Anders, now let's go run off and find some templars to fireball, and make mad passionate crazy love by the light of their flaming corpses, and breed a new race of church-razing, cat loving abominations!"

Either ending will please me, and the world will still be on the brink of total mayhem, regardless.

[Costin_Razvan]

And I have to say, until now, late act 3 is anti-climactic. Late act 2 was awesome! With awesome soundtracks. Here? It's just dull, and it's bugged. The "farewell speeches" were extremely underwhelming. Hawke's speech is meh, Shepard's was better (can't believe I said that). A main reason is the lack of music and ambience.

It feels to me that they scraped the original plot and went with a new one to get to the result. I think the original was supposed to be Hawke dealing with a massive Qunari invasion that would result in a big war in Thedas...but yes Act 3 just ended badly.

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for Sebastian. As I said earlier, I was grooming him to return to Starhaven and be an ally as my Hawke was planning to become Viscount. Of course that didn't happen.
But yea, Sebastian essentially said he will destroy Kirkwall entirely. That's like...even more extreme than Meredith...

And if he does, what would your plan be? Defend the city? Sacrifice the city? Preempt his attack?

[MKDAWUSS]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And I have to say, until now, late act 3 is anti-climactic. Late act 2 was awesome! With awesome soundtracks. Here? It's just dull, and it's bugged. The "farewell speeches" were extremely underwhelming. Hawke's speech is meh, Shepard's was better (can't believe I said that). A main reason is the lack of music and ambience.

It feels to me that they scraped the original plot and went with a new one to get to the result. I think the original was supposed to be Hawke dealing with a massive Qunari invasion that would result in a big war in Thedas...but yes Act 3 just ended badly.

Yep. The whole story went downhill then. Also, it seems like most of the people don't act completely OOC in proportion to the rest of the game until then. Act 3 looked like a psychedelic mix of soap opera and Saturday Morning Cartoon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Costin
That or it was rushed. It's very underwhelming, relative to the hype and build up from the very beginning.

Either they should have taken more time, or extend act 2 more and end with it. 
It's a shame, the mage vs Templar issue could have been really good. I was hyped at the beginning of act 3.

MKDAWUSS wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for Sebastian. As I said earlier, I was grooming him to return to Starhaven and be an ally as my Hawke was planning to become Viscount. Of course that didn't happen.
But yea, Sebastian essentially said he will destroy Kirkwall entirely. That's like...even more extreme than Meredith...

And if he does, what would your plan be? Defend the city? Sacrifice the city? Preempt his attack?

I haven't finished yet, but I assume that Hawke goes into hiding with the other mages?
If so, there is nothing much he can do. Maybe just give him Anders and either get an ally (unlikely) or at least make him neutral.

EDIT: and another thing that is killing act 3 for me. Way too many demons.
I understand that they will show up in a time of chaos like this, but the excess is dehumanizing the conflict. It was not supposed to be a fight against some ancient evil, but too many demons is doing exactly that. I want mages vs Templars. Not mages and Templars getting screwed by demons almost all the time.

Act 2 was not that at all. Even at the end when the Arishok started to get a bit unreasonable, in many ways he still had a point. And he earned my respect. He was not the "inexplicable ancient dark evil force that wants to destroy the world".

EDIT 2: Seriously? The idol is what caused this? Sigh.
It just banalises the whole thing. It might make Meredith a more tragic character, but it's bringing in way too many outside "actors" and dehumanizing the whole thing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 08:26 .

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Costin
That or it was rushed. It's very underwhelming, relative to the hype and build up from the very beginning.

Either they should have taken more time, or extend act 2 more and end with it. 
It's a shame, the mage vs Templar issue could have been really good. I was hyped at the beginning of act 3.


Act 2 was not that at all. Even at the end when the Arishok started to get a bit unreasonable, in many ways he still had a point. And he earned my respect. He was not the "inexplicable ancient dark evil force that wants to destroy the world".

And it still could have provided that Chantry conflict. The Qunari were gaining converts. I would have taken a Qunari-Chantry Holy War as the main backdrop of DA2 well ahead of Mages vs. Templars. The Qunari storyline was a lot less campy as well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SPOILERS



The problem with act 3 is that it's starting to feel like a cartoon. Dark is good. Way too much dark starts getting ridiculous. Everyone is going crazy. You have Orsino who somehow learned to become a harvester (how?). You have Meredith being controlled by her sword (soul calibur style? So banal). And you have demons everywhere.

It just lacks humanity and maturity. Act 3 ended up being the conflict between the insane and the possessed and not between Templars and mages.

And it's strange because Act 2 was so well written. Was it like two different writing teams? What went wrong?


END SPOILERS

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Act 2 had all these really great moments, all this intense stuff.

Then Act 3 goes out not with a bang, but with a meh.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I really don't know what to say. I was loving the game and now, I am not. I finished and, almost to add insult to injury, there is no epic music in the credits. It feels so underwhelming.

So disappointing. They should have really ended with act 2.
Meredith could have been an interesting character and they ruined her. It's as if the writers were inspired by all those morons who thought that Loghain was possessed by the Archdemon. Orsino could have been well developed, but they turn him into a mad man. It just went downhill very painfully.

Well, now they confirmed that the Warden disappeared also.