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[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

That strikes me as an incredibly meh ambition. Order? Just order for its own sake?

Yes.
A stable functionning society, with the rule of Law. It's not his place to improve it.

[Xilizhra]

Why don't you just join the Qun if that's all you want?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A pity that Justice /Vengeance is not explored as much as I would have liked. We go to the fade once in DA2 and I recommend bringing Anders. There, it's only Justice. But still not enough.

I think the real tragedy is Justice. He was on the verge of finding enlightenment in Awakening, only to be twisted and driven mad by reality (a delicious irony for me, as that's what I think usually happens to ultra-idealists, though on a smaller scale and sometimes on a larger one). It was a nice touch, that the Warden is not so awesome as to be able to enlighten spirits. But still, the Warden was not there and Anders was definitely not the kind of guidance Justice needed.

Before release, I was saying in the Anders forum in the DA2 section that I would love to be able to convince Justice to ditch vengeance, but without reverting to his naive former self. Not Justice, nor Vengeance. But Order. But alas, the option is not there and there is not enough interaction with him.

I think, though, Justice was drawn to Anders more than anyone else, and I don't think the Warden could have made much difference. I noticed this in conversations in Awakening, his tone and interest in Anders was probably more intense than the other companions. Anders was the perfect candidate for Justice. . He was rightfully upset at the way his kind were being unjustly treated by an oppresive organization. Despite this, he was also opposed to forbidden magic such as blood magic, and while he wanted freedom, he still wanted to do so without unecessary violence. In the "moral" department, Anders and Justice clicked.

But most of all, he was a mage. And even good spirits are highly attracted to mages, though on a different level and for different reasons than demons. And while Justice sought enlightenment, he was still a spirit. Spirits reason, think differently. The concept of Justice was too strongly at the core of his being. I don't think it would have been possible to change his views, like you would a normal being, because spirits, like the Fade, at their core, are unchanging. Unless, of course, something at the metaphysical level occurs. Such as possesion of a living host, with strong passions and motivations.

My theory, at least.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why don't you just join the Qun if that's all you want?

And why not?

Except I don't happen to agree with all their practises though I'd learn a lot from them.

Order is both an intrinsic and instrumental good. It's good in and of itself, and it provdes the opportunity to move forward and flourish that would otherwise be impossible. Viewing order as an instrinsic good however does not mean that there are not several kinds of orders and several kind of ways to reach it.

But if it came down to anarchy or the Qun. Or a mess of a society or the Qun. I'd join the Qun, why not.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
But most of all, he was a mage. And even good spirits are highly attracted to mages, though on a different level and for different reasons than demons. And while Justice sought enlightenment, he was still a spirit. Spirits reason, think differently. The concept of Justice was too strongly at the core of his being. I don't think it would have been possible to change his views, like you would a normal being, because spirits, like the Fade, at their core, are unchanging. Unless, of course, something at the metaphysical level occurs. Such as possesion of a living host, with strong passions and motivations.

My theory, at least.

I think Justice was beginning to change. At least in his perspective of the world. He knew that his manichean ideals could not function there. But tcould be just talk and at the core, he didn't change much. That he was trying to adapt, but failed.

And I agree, Justice and Anders had chemistry. Turned out to be a disaster, but they "fit" together.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why don't you just join the Qun if that's all you want?

And why not?

Except I don't happen to agree with all their practises though I'd learn a lot from them.

Order is both an intrinsic and instrumental good. It's good in and of itself, and it provdes the opportunity to move forward and flourish that would otherwise be impossible. Viewing order as an instrinsic good however does not mean that there are not several kinds of orders and several kind of ways to reach it.

But if it came down to anarchy or the Qun. Or a mess of a society or the Qun. I'd join the Qun, why not.  

I disagree that order is intrinsically good. Some order is necessary for good to come about, but so is some chaos. Complete and perfect order means changelessness, which is basically death. It can be an instrumental good, but only the causing of pleasure and the healing of pain are intrinsically good, and order isn't guaranteed to do either.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
I disagree that order is intrinsically good. Some order is necessary for good to come about, but so is some chaos. Complete and perfect order means changelessness, which is basically death. It can be an instrumental good, but only the causing of pleasure and the healing of pain are intrinsically good, and order isn't guaranteed to do either.

Saying that order is instrinsically good, doesn't mean that chaos can't produce good. Or that perfect order is even untainnable.

And since I am not talking from an individual perspective, since in the larger scheme of things their pleasure or pain is irrelevent, that is not my concern. And since I am talking about a spirit. I'd rather make him a spirit of one thing, than make him a spirit of  "order, justice, equality, freedom, happiness, knowledge, wisdom...etc". He can't even manage with one.

I am not taking a philosophical position either, I am talkign about justice. Yes, you're right, pleasure and avoiding pain are the only intrinsic good, if we are going to get philosophical about this which I am not really interested in doing right now. Whether that means that they are or should be the two most important things is another matter, and I attribute larger importance to other things.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 02:50 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I think Justice was beginning to change. At least in his perspective of the world. He knew that his manichean ideals could not function there. But tcould be just talk and at the core, he didn't change much. That he was trying to adapt, but failed.

I think that's it. He was amazed by the world, and while he wanted to understand it, he was as alien to it as it was to him. Spirits tend to take on the "distilled" aspects of the human psyche, which is why they are so tunnel-visioned/single minded. They take on an aspect of the human mind, but like everything they try to copy in the Fade, it is completely out of context.

Like, Justice only seeing the need to right all the wrongs he saw, without taking them into context and how they exist in combitnation with other ideals and principles.

One thing I just thought about: that dragon turd/idol thingy made of pure lyrium that's supposedly responsible for all the evil in Kirkwall. Remember how in Awakenings, Justice wanted the ring of pure Lyrium because he loved the way it "sang", and he liked lyrium in general. I wonder if that idol thingy had some part in turning Justice bad, along with being corrupted by Anders buried anger at the Chantry.

You know, if they would have explained something like that, or hinted at it, maybe that idol thingy wouldn't have been such a WTF.

And I agree, Justice and Anders had chemistry. Turned out to be a disaster, but they "fit" together.

it's ironic, because both characters, if you were looking at it through a D&D alignment perspective, would definitely be strong on the "good" end. Yet combined into one being, instead of the ultimate awesomegoodness uber-man, they end up corrupting one another and becoming psycho bomber abomination.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I disagree that order is intrinsically good. Some order is necessary for good to come about, but so is some chaos. Complete and perfect order means changelessness, which is basically death. It can be an instrumental good, but only the causing of pleasure and the healing of pain are intrinsically good, and order isn't guaranteed to do either.

Saying that order is instrinsically good, doesn't mean that chaos can't produce good. Or that perfect order is even untainnable.

And since I am not talking from an individual perspective, since in the larger scheme of things their pleasure or pain is irrelevent, that is not my concern. And since I am talking about a spirit. I'd rather make him a spirit of one thing, than make him a spirit of  "order, justice, equality, freedom, happiness, knowledge, wisdom...etc". He can't even manage with one.

I am not taking a philosophical position either, I am talkign about justice. Yes, you're right, pleasure and avoiding pain are the only intrinsic good, if we are going to get philosophical about this which I am not really interested in doing right now. Whether that means that they are or should be the two most important things is another matter, and I attribute larger importance to other things.  

I'm not too unhappy with what he ended up being. Assuming, of course, that the mages win this war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
One thing I just thought about: that dragon turd/idol thingy made of pure lyrium that's supposedly responsible for all the evil in Kirkwall. Remember how in Awakenings, Justice wanted the ring of pure Lyrium because he loved the way it "sang", and he liked lyrium in general. I wonder if that idol thingy had some part in turning Justice bad, along with being corrupted by Anders buried anger at the Chantry.

You know, if they would have explained something like that, or hinted at it, maybe that idol thingy wouldn't have been such a WTF.

Yea, we are speculating in the DA2 section. The theme of the song is everywhere. Old Gods. Lyrium. Maker / Andraste.

The interesting thing is (and it makes me squee):
"Once the Tevinter god of beauty, in ancient times Urthemiel was worshipped by musicians, artists, and poets. "

Arcturus would soo be teaching him music lessons

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea, we are speculating in the DA2 section. The theme of the song is everywhere. Old Gods. Lyrium. Maker / Andraste.

The interesting thing is (and it makes me squee):
"Once the Tevinter god of beauty, in ancient times Urthemiel was worshipped by musicians, artists, and poets. "

Arcturus would soo be teaching him music lessons

Yeah, but be careful. You know, since Beard Jr. is going to have the soul of the God of beauty, you don't walk into your bedroom one day and find him trying on all Morrigans shiny jewlery and admiring himself in that mirror you gave his mother so long ago. Or, heaven forbid, find him modeling Morrigans unmentionables:P

It's funny, the song theme, I was noticing as well a couple days ago, when I was going through the Gauntlet for the sacred ashes quest. the theme of the song of Andraste, the song of the old gods, I was wondering if there was some conenction. And yesterday, when I was doing the Dalish quest, you can pick up two different elven song books, supposedly songs from the days of Arlathan. And Arlathan=Eluvians=weird Morrigan omens/hints of black city...... And now that i think about lyrium "singing" to the spirits....

Another thing I see speculation on is Sandal. WTF is up there?

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am actually worried about that lol seriously. Last thing I need is another Cailan...*gasp* I just shocked myself.

Because Sandal has a 1 out of 100 chance of saying this:
"One day the magic will come back. all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see"

In a very creepy voice.

I am hoping the "he" is Urthemiel.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 03:13 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am actually worried about that lol seriously. Last thing I need is another Cailan...*gasp* I just shocked myself.

Can see it now. Morrigan and Arcturus walk in to find Arcturus Jr. wearing a tiara and Morrigan's bra, watching Queer Eye for the Straight Gut.

Morrigan: .......tis' not something that came from my side of the family, of that I can assure you.

Because Sandal has a 1 out of 100 chance of saying this:
"One day the magic will come back. all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see"

In a very creepy voice.

I am hoping the "he" is Urthemiel.

Dunno. The developers keep saying over and over the DR isn't canon, so I don't know how big a part little Urthemiel will play. Though I honestly don't see too many other candidates for "he". Though they say it isn't canon, I think it would be pretty epicly lame for it not to play a major role in the future. Which would be difficult for my own canon, since no DR was done. And gaider said, if the DR wasn't done, it is impossible for OGB to exist. Wonder how they are going to work around that one.

That would creep me out, though. Makes me wonder who....or what.....Sandal is. I mean, he was found wandering alone in the Deep Roads, but never got tainted. And he seems to make first appearances where Flemmeth and Morrigan are involved...

[Sarah1281]

When I play DA2, I'm going to pretend it wasn't MY Warden Commander that made him give Ser Awesomekiity up. Wouldn't happen on MY watch! I'd just make Anders leave the pounce at the Keep, and take a little lock of fur with him to the Deep Roads.

Canonically I don't think it was. Why in the world would the gift-giver make him get rid of it? The Warden was busy with other tasks (DLCs, for instance) and away from the Keep quite a bit, though, so that's probably when whatever ****** the First Warden sent struck.

Whoever it was was certainly an idiot, though. Who cares about things like making Anders 'soft' in the face of a magical animal that can effortlessly rouse those who have fallen in battle?

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Skadi
Gaider said that if they want a character to show up, they will make him show up. Leliana could be killed, but now she is canonized.

So it's possible they could just find a way to bring him in, which I hope they do. Another candidate for "he" is the Maker.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Canonically I don't think it was. Why in the world would the gift-giver make him get rid of it? The Warden was busy with other tasks (DLCs, for instance) and away from the Keep quite a bit, though, so that's probably when whatever ****** the First Warden sent struck.

Whoever it was was certainly an idiot, though. Who cares about things like making Anders 'soft' in the face of a magical animal that can effortlessly rouse those who have fallen in battle?

Hey, you're back!

Exactly! he has miraculous power, Pounce does. He can raise the dead!

Yeah, my Warden was no where around, once she was done in Amaranthine, she decided she was sick of the surface world and decided to go chill with the dwarves and build Warden bases in the deep roads where they were needed. So she was no where near. And if she ever got wind of it, that WC ****** who committed such sacrelige would wake up one day and find himself strapped to a wooden table as the latest "volunteer" for Avernus' research.

Bastard.<_<

[MKDAWUSS]

Sarah1281 wrote...

When I play DA2, I'm going to pretend it wasn't MY Warden Commander that made him give Ser Awesomekiity up. Wouldn't happen on MY watch! I'd just make Anders leave the pounce at the Keep, and take a little lock of fur with him to the Deep Roads.

Canonically I don't think it was. Why in the world would the gift-giver make him get rid of it? The Warden was busy with other tasks (DLCs, for instance) and away from the Keep quite a bit, though, so that's probably when whatever ****** the First Warden sent struck.

Whoever it was was certainly an idiot, though. Who cares about things like making Anders 'soft' in the face of a magical animal that can effortlessly rouse those who have fallen in battle?

It would explain why the Warden has Ser Pounce-a-lot in his inventory in GOA and WH

[KnightofPhoenix]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

When I play DA2, I'm going to pretend it wasn't MY Warden Commander that made him give Ser Awesomekiity up. Wouldn't happen on MY watch! I'd just make Anders leave the pounce at the Keep, and take a little lock of fur with him to the Deep Roads.

Canonically I don't think it was. Why in the world would the gift-giver make him get rid of it? The Warden was busy with other tasks (DLCs, for instance) and away from the Keep quite a bit, though, so that's probably when whatever ****** the First Warden sent struck.

Whoever it was was certainly an idiot, though. Who cares about things like making Anders 'soft' in the face of a magical animal that can effortlessly rouse those who have fallen in battle?

It would explain why the Warden has Ser Pounce-a-lot in his inventory in GOA and WH

Exactly
I know Arcturus would do it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Skadi
Gaider said that if they want a character to show up, they will make him show up. Leliana could be killed, but now she is canonized.

The certainly can. However, the OGB is very different. In order for it to exist, the DR must have been done. If the DR was not done, somebody dies. Either the Warden, Alistair, or Loghain. In my canon, Alistair dies.

Thus, if DA3 were to be a coninuous chain of imports, with Awakenings and DA2 reflecting at least the state of who lived or died, and Witch Hunt reflected whether or not a baby existed.

it is different to importing a dead Warden, because with a dead Warden to Awakenings, the game just retcons your dead Warden as having done the DR. But say, in my case, the dead Warden was not only Alistair, but King Alistair, this presents some problems for retconning, since in Awakening (and presumably, DA2) correctly show that Anora took the throne by default since Alistair snuffed it. If it was retconned to Alistair having done the DR, then it would also have to retcon Anora as queen and replace her with Alistair.

That's just one example with the problems of retconning. About the only way they could get around this is through some seriously crazy and bizarre plot twists.

So it's possible they could just find a way to bring him in, which I hope they do. Another candidate for "he" is the Maker.

For those who did the DR, yeah, it would be cool. For those who didn't., there would need to be some swerious 'splainin to do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

They could just ignore who the monarch in Ferelden is. They are probably going to ignore them in later games. Seeing how they were pretty irrelevent in DA2 anyhow.

I think they should have forced the choice in Origins anyways. It had the most story potential, compared to the other choices.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They could just ignore who the monarch in Ferelden is. They are probably going to ignore them in later games. Seeing how they were pretty irrelevent in DA2 anyhow.

I think they should have forced the choice in Origins anyways. It had the most story potential, compared to the other choices.

What, forced the DR? No, don't think they could have. Would have ruined the game, and been hard to believably implement. And then you have the case of female Wardens, to whom such a choice might not be as signifigant, or important, unless they are romancing Alistair.

Both choices have equal potential, especially when you consider how largely Flemmeth is involved. There are still two old gods left, and they seem to be more signifigant, for some reason.

And, of course, we don't exactly know what Morrigan plans to do with the kid, what her big change is, or what her agenda is. Whether it will be something desirable, or undesirable. The kid is part of her plans, but if you do not do the DR, other that being mighty miffed at you, her overall plan in WH did not seem to be stalled or ruined.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I know. Just that a revived old god is a better starting point than one of the Wardens dead and that's it. And she says that he's the herald of what's to come. Not crucial or necessary, but I think he should be important.

But we'll see. My fear is, they will make the choice completely inconsequential.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Interestingly, since WH and Now DA2, I have developed a curiosity in the Dalish. Mainly, their connection to Flemmeth. Which there seems to be a mysterious link between the two, and I've seen it speculated that Flemmeth is the old Dalish trickster wolf god, or something like that. But in reading the Stolen Throne, as well as WH, and in DA2, the Dalish, unlike most people in Ferelden, do not seem to hold the same superstitous dread of Flemmeth, more like a cautious and wary awe. And they supposedly know how to ressurect her, as well.

Another thing that struck my curiosity was thinking again about the ruins in the Dalish quest, and the Dalish origins. Hinting at a joint human/elven, possibly Tevinter/Arlathan collaboration of some sort. The phylactery gem you find that gives you AW specialization vaguely remembers a battle involving fully armed humans and elves fighting together. And Arl Foreshadow's notes hint at the rise of Arlathan once again.

it makes me wonder at the real history between humanity and elven kind. We have the accepted version, yet bits and pieces seem to bring this into question.

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I know. Just that a revived old god is a better starting point than one of the Wardens dead and that's it. And she says that he's the herald of what's to come. Not crucial or necessary, but I think he should be important.

But we'll see. My fear is, they will make the choice completely inconsequential.

There could be a way to take the decision into account. If the OGB was spawned, the Black City is purified, and if not, Thedas faces the apocalyptic 6th Blight that finally destroys the world. Just an example, and not one I would necessarily run with.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Just finished the Landsmeet, and it's offical as far as I'm concerned: Loggy loves pain.

I ususally choose to fight anyway, even though I totally pwned him by getting unanimous and extra support (Ceorlic does not count, he's a terminal douche anyway) because that battle is fun and you get to fight Loggy in all his orange-tagged bossy glory. (And it's the only opportunity to enjoy the sight of him shield-bashing Wynne or Leliana, since I prefer to duel him myself or let Alistair do it if I'm feeling lazy and don't plan on sparing him)

But everytime I performed some decidedly painful or destructive action on him, he screams "Yessssssssss!" or "RIIIIIIGHT!!!!!!!!". Or lets out this incredibly deep roar/moan that sounds like he's one headbutt away from a full orgasm. His cries of "pain" when my dog is mauling him, or my rogue is opening up a can of punisher-strength whoop-ass, he screams like he's getting an Antivan massage rather than disemboweled. 

I'm totally convinced now he deserved a good work over in a properly equipped dungeon rather than decpitation at the Landsmeet. Sigh. :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub: