12857 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

What do you think should have been done with Katriel? She be allowed to just leave because she decided she loves Maric too much to keep trying to abduct him? What about her previous actions? And Loghain hardly FORCED Maric to kill her. In fact, when Maric saw the letter later he said it didn't change anything.

[Monica21]

GardenSnake wrote...
I'd respond to your specific parts, but I'll just do it all in one. About Katriel, come on, so Loghain got his point across to Maric about her being a spy, alright fine. No, not good enough, instead of a okay, have you learned your lesson yet, now lets all make up and be friends again, Loghain just stands there, hoping that Maric will do EXACTLY what he did. I'm in a situation like that with some buddies of mine, what do I do? Let one punch the other in the face so that they never talk to each other again? No, first of all I break the news that Joe killed Sean's cat more lightly than just "Oh, I was watching Joe, he was burying your cat and had blood all over his hands. Connect the dots." Then after that, I at least make an effort for the situation not to escalate into a screaming/punching/killing match. You see what I'm saying? Ya, Katriel meant less than nothing to Loghain, but he could have at least tried for Maric's sake. Your point about Cailin? Sure he didn't kill him directly, but he did doom him to his own death. It IS Loghain's fault that he died indirectly. He makes a plan with Cailin that his men and him will rush in to destroy the darkspawn, but then leaves and tries to hurt others in his family. Him and Cailin might as well have been standing next to a tree with Loghain saying that he'll catch him and then just walking away as Cailin fell to the ground and broke his back. As for that last point, it's a part of Gaider's almost finished book about Anora's childhood  Come on, I'm just having fun with that last part.

As much as it doesn't look like it, I didn't come here to start **** over Loghain. So I'll leave you guys to pick apart my comment above and bid you adieu.

First, clearly my comment about why Katriel was killed is entirely lost on you, so therefore your analogy about your friends punching each other makes no sense in context.

Second, you might want to play again and note Cailan's comments about the battle compared to Loghain's. I don't think you were actually paying attention. It seems your thinking was more along the lines of "Loghain has circles under his eyes so clearly he's the bad guy."

Third, you may not have come to start anything, but you are obviously not prepared to defend your statements with anything other than poorly thought out analogies. Nice talking to you.

[GardenSnake]

Monica21 wrote...
Nice talking to you.

Why thank you

[testing123]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Loghain hardly FORCED Maric to kill her. In fact, when Maric saw the letter later he said it didn't change anything.

Well, he deliberately withheld information from Maric to increase the likelihood of an aggressive response.  He manipulated him because he felt he needed to be 'hardened' in order to be a successful ruler.  Continuing to the next book, Maric clearly regrets what he did and laments her loss.  No, reading the letter didn't change what she did.  It doesn't make any of those lives come back.  But given the fact that the book certainly portrays her as being 'redeemed,' would it not be more pragmatic to allow her the opportunity to serve some purpose for the good of Ferelden rather than simply die for her crimes?  Isn't that what the majority of you did for Loghain? =P

Speaking of Loghain, I'm curious if this has ever been discussed before.  Does anyone else think of Jack Nicholson's epic speech from 'A Few Good Men', ('You can't handle the truth!'),when Loghain makes his speech after the Landsmeet turns on him?  I really love that speech, and it is delivered so well.  'None of you have shed blood for this country the way I have!  How dare you judge me!'  The similarities between the characters are compelling. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
 But given the fact that the book certainly portrays her as being 'redeemed,'

Something that Loghain could not be sure of. And that's definately a valid reason for killing Loghain too, you can't really be sure you could trust him if your PC didn't understand his character (by that I mean if someone really understood his character, then one could trust him).

jvee wrote...
Speaking of Loghain, I'm curious if this has ever been discussed before.  Does anyone else think of Jack Nicholson's epic speech from 'A Few Good Men', ('You can't handle the truth!'),when Loghain makes his speech after the Landsmeet turns on him?  I really love that speech, and it is delivered so well.  'None of you have shed blood for this country the way I have!  How dare you judge me!'  The similarities between the characters are compelling. 

I haven't watched the movie, so I can't compare the characters, but I have seen the speech and yes I see similarities. 
I liked Loghain's angry speech at the Landsmeet. Many see it as a rant, but I sympathised really.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 septembre 2010 - 03:49 .

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Loghain hardly FORCED Maric to kill her. In fact, when Maric saw the letter later he said it didn't change anything.

Well, he deliberately withheld information from Maric to increase the likelihood of an aggressive response.  He manipulated him because he felt he needed to be 'hardened' in order to be a successful ruler.  

The first time I read this scene, Loghain's actions did seem harsh to me. I was mad that he would do something like that. I mean, when people found out about Katriel, they were going to demand Maric's justice, and Katriel's death would be assured anyway, so why use Katriel to manipulate Maric? But if Loghain thought that Maric would defend Katriel, or if he thought Maric would be unable to make Katriel face justice, it would make the rebellion look weak, and they couldn't afford to do that.

Continuing to the next book, Maric clearly regrets what he did and laments her loss.  No, reading the letter didn't change what she did.  It doesn't make any of those lives come back.  But given the fact that the book certainly portrays her as being 'redeemed,' would it not be more pragmatic to allow her the opportunity to serve some purpose for the good of Ferelden rather than simply die for her crimes?  

I won't pretend I entirely understand Maric. He frustrates me because he seems to be the same man at the beginning of Stolen Throne all the way through to the end of The Calling. Maybe I feel like the Warden is faced with these so called "hard chocies", and I pick up this message here and there that sometimes being a good person is not enough when larger things are at stake, and then you have Maric who does these (imo) irresponsible things and somehow his beeing a good person *is* enough. Maybe I'm just jealous.

Isn't that what the majority of you did for Loghain? =P

If the Landsmeet had demanded his death in order for the civil war to stop and for my character to gain the Ferelden armies, then I would have executed him.

Speaking of Loghain, I'm curious if this has ever been discussed before.  Does anyone else think of Jack Nicholson's epic speech from 'A Few Good Men', ('You can't handle the truth!'),when Loghain makes his speech after the Landsmeet turns on him?  I really love that speech, and it is delivered so well.  'None of you have shed blood for this country the way I have!  How dare you judge me!'  The similarities between the characters are compelling. 

I *love* Loghain's "How dare you judge me" speech. Probably because it's the one that convinced me as a player to want to spare him.

Modifié par phaonica, 04 septembre 2010 - 03:57 .

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Something that Loghain could not be sure of. And that's definately a valid reason for killing Loghain too, you can't really be sure you could trust him if your PC didn't understand his character (by that I mean if someone really understood his character, then one could trust him).

Yes, it's really only clear to the reader.  That's what makes the passage so heartbreaking.  Or not.  A bit poetic that Loghain is thrust into essentially the same exact situation later, no? 

I haven't watched the movie, so I can't compare the characters, but I have seen the speech and yes I see similarities. 
I liked Loghain's angry speech at the Landsmeet. Many see it as a rant, but I sympathised really.  

It's basically a rant on the naivete of the self righteous.  People want to feel safe but they don't want to recognize what it takes to achieve that kind of security.  Loghain never really says anything like that but it seems like words that could come straight out of his mouth.

I see his Landsmeet speech as him unraveling.  He's incredibly frustrated with the nobles inability to act rationally when they are in a state of crisis.  He's exasperated because every decision he's made has been to preserve Ferelden but their in-fighting for scraps of power has made all of his attempts futile and now his sins are coming back to haunt him.  But yeah, that is the most iconic moment of the game for me.  Simon Templeman did a fantastic job throughout, but that was particularly special.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
Yes, it's really only clear to the reader.  That's what makes the passage so heartbreaking.  Or not.  A bit poetic that Loghain is thrust into essentially the same exact situation later, no? 

I wouldn't say exact, but in a very similar position. Yes, it is poetic irony.

It's basically a rant on the naivete of the self righteous.  People want to feel safe but they don't want to recognize what it takes to achieve that kind of security.  Loghain never really says anything like that but it seems like words that could come straight out of his mouth.

He does say something similar when justifying his deal with Tevinter slavers. I interpretted Eamon's facial expression as deep down inside agreeing with him or at the very least seeing his point.

I see his Landsmeet speech as him unraveling.  He's incredibly frustrated with the nobles inability to act rationally when they are in a state of crisis.  He's exasperated because every decision he's made has been to preserve Ferelden but their in-fighting for scraps of power has made all of his attempts futile and now his sins are coming back to haunt him.  But yeah, that is the most iconic moment of the game for me.  Simon Templeman did a fantastic job throughout, but that was particularly special.

Very well said, couldn't have said it any better myself and I've been doing this since the game came out lol
Yea, Templeman really made the character for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:16 .

[phaonica]

jvee wrote...

It's basically a rant on the naivete of the self righteous.  People want to feel safe but they don't want to recognize what it takes to achieve that kind of security.  Loghain never really says anything like that but it seems like words that could come straight out of his mouth.

I've actually never seen this movie before, but I just watched the speech on Youtube, and yeah, wow, that was pretty awesome

edit: oops, uh, SPOILER ALERT, I guess, in case you haven't seen the movie

I see his Landsmeet speech as him unraveling.  He's incredibly frustrated with the nobles inability to act rationally when they are in a state of crisis.  He's exasperated because every decision he's made has been to preserve Ferelden but their in-fighting for scraps of power has made all of his attempts futile and now his sins are coming back to haunt him.  But yeah, that is the most iconic moment of the game for me.  Simon Templeman did a fantastic job throughout, but that was particularly special.

Your description is exactly my impression of Loghain, too.

Modifié par phaonica, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Giggles_Manically]

He also makes Han Gerrel cool in Mass Effect 2.

While I do agree with Koris, Templeman really puts his life into charachters and makes Han really cool.



I have some terrible vision of Loghain sneaking into the Emperess' court and screaming BOO!.

It seems that Loghain was almost giddy at being sent to Orlais. Whether it was the irony or him thinking up terrible things to do, that would annoy the whole country I dont know.



Or maybe in DA2 Hawke hears how Emperor Loghain is now in charge of Orlais.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
It seems that Loghain was almost giddy at being sent to Orlais. Whether it was the irony or him thinking up terrible things to do, that would annoy the whole country I dont know.

I think he admitted that the Wardens had a point in him staying out of Ferelden.
I would have loved fightign at his side in Amaranthine though. Or make him defend the vigil while I save the city. Sigh too bad.

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Or maybe in DA2 Hawke hears how Emperor Loghain is now in charge of Orlais.

lol that would be like  Dr. Doom becoming the king of the very country that persecuted his people.

On a serious note, a Loghain cameo in DA2 would make my day, but it's unlikely.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:27 .

[phaonica]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

It seems that Loghain was almost giddy at being sent to Orlais. Whether it was the irony or him thinking up terrible things to do, that would annoy the whole country I dont know.

I was really glad to find him in such a good mood in Awakening. I was worried that if I spared him, he might turn out bitter. But instead he just seems happy that Ferelden survived the Blight at all. I don't think he's wishing mischief against the Orlesians, however. That would be decidedly counterproductive, and I think he does have more sense than that. When you're talking to Loghain about the Orlesian Wardens who were killed on their way to Vigil Keep, he says something like "Orlesian or not, they did not deserve such a fate." 

[Monica21]

jvee wrote...
I see his Landsmeet speech as him unraveling.  He's incredibly frustrated with the nobles inability to act rationally when they are in a state of crisis.  He's exasperated because every decision he's made has been to preserve Ferelden but their in-fighting for scraps of power has made all of his attempts futile and now his sins are coming back to haunt him.  But yeah, that is the most iconic moment of the game for me.  Simon Templeman did a fantastic job throughout, but that was particularly special.

The first time I heard it I really didn't understand what he meant because the game didn't do a very good job telling the story of the rebellion and I hadn't read the books. I knew something very personal was going on though. There were little moments throughout my first playthrough that showed me that Loghain was tired and haunted by what was happening. Him staring into the fire, the scene with him talking to Anora and Howe, and then finally the Landsmeet. There are all these smaller moments that show you that there's much more to the man, and then at the Landsmeet when he told Anora that daughters stayed six years old with skinned knees and pigtails was very touching.

Even after reading the books though, it took me awhile before I was willing to spare him. Even KoP couldn't convince me in the Complete Defense thread. I can't pretend not to understand people who don't like him, and the reason you can kill him at the Landsmeet is because there is enough evidence. He's the antagonist for a reason, but I'll never be able to kill him at the Landsmeet again.

Modifié par Monica21, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

GardenSnake wrote...

He's a dirtbag. "Oh but he's patriotic, leave him alone, he's not evil. He's just conflicted and blah blah blah blah." Lets see here, he doomed his 'best friend's' son to death because he thought he wasn't fit to rule. He also stood by as his 'best friend' killed his love although he knew that she didn't intend to betray Maric any more. He also screwed Maric over by getting with Rowan, and then made them get back together, esencially making the two form a relationship based on a lie.

Man, what a pal Loghain is huh? Being patriotic is one thing, but screwing your friends over to do so is what makes him a dirtbag.

On my first playthrough I gladly let Alistair kill him, Loghain had caused his family enough pain. And that was even before I had read the books.

And lovers will hear no opposing view.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
And lovers will hear no opposing view.

Incorrect. We know and understand the opposing view. We know he's the antagonist. We know he made poor choices. No one disputes that. What we will dispute is the reason for those choices.

[Giggles_Manically]

TJPags wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

GardenSnake wrote...

He's a dirtbag. "Oh but he's patriotic, leave him alone, he's not evil. He's just conflicted and blah blah blah blah." Lets see here, he doomed his 'best friend's' son to death because he thought he wasn't fit to rule. He also stood by as his 'best friend' killed his love although he knew that she didn't intend to betray Maric any more. He also screwed Maric over by getting with Rowan, and then made them get back together, esencially making the two form a relationship based on a lie.

Man, what a pal Loghain is huh? Being patriotic is one thing, but screwing your friends over to do so is what makes him a dirtbag.

On my first playthrough I gladly let Alistair kill him, Loghain had caused his family enough pain. And that was even before I had read the books.

And lovers will hear no opposing view.

And Trolls will continue to troll.

[TJPags]

I'm sorry, did I interupt the lovefest with an opposing view?



I'm as sorry as Loghain was when Caillan became Ogre food.

[EnchantedEyes1]

[quote]jvee wrote...

Speaking of Loghain, I'm curious if this has ever been discussed before.  Does anyone else think of Jack Nicholson's epic speech from 'A Few Good Men', ('You can't handle the truth!'),when Loghain makes his speech after the Landsmeet turns on him?  I really love that speech, and it is delivered so well.  'None of you have shed blood for this country the way I have!  How dare you judge me!'  The similarities between the characters are compelling. 
[/quote]

Yes! I thought the same thing the first time I heard it at the Landsmeet. When Loghain delivered that speech, I got chills. All my Wardens, even the earlier ones which executed Loghain always had a grudging repect for him which was further cemented by that speech and by his response to settle things with a duel.

[quote]phaonica wrote...

I won't pretend I entirely understand
Maric. He frustrates me because he seems to be the same man at the
beginning of Stolen Throne all the way through to the end of The
Calling. Maybe I feel like the Warden is faced with these so called
"hard chocies", and I pick up this message here and there that sometimes
being a good person is not enough when larger things are at stake, and
then you have Maric who does these (imo) irresponsible things and
somehow his beeing a good person *is* enough. Maybe I'm just jealous. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/quote]

I don't really understand Maric's appeal. Reading both books made me want to shake him into reality. He does some irresponsible and hurtful things to those around him and yet he's thought of so highly. This next part will probably get me blasted but I feel that Maric selfishly indulges himself without bothering to think how his actions may affect others. He can be the "good" guy because he knows he can count on Loghain to do what is necessary, whether it's palatable or not. I really wish I could have a conversation with Loghain as to why he would follow Maric into the Fade - Maric failed to inspire me.

[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...

It seems that Loghain was
almost giddy at being sent to Orlais. Whether it was the irony or him
thinking up terrible things to do, that would annoy the whole country I
dont know.
/quote]


I was wondering why they would send him to Orlais - is there nowhere else he can go?

Modifié par EnchantedEyes1, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[Giggles_Manically]

If you have nothing to add beyond:

I HATE LOGHAIN AND ALL HIS FANS ARE BLIND!



Which most haters revert to, then yes you can be considered a troll.

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

I'm sorry, did I interupt the lovefest with an opposing view?

I'm as sorry as Loghain was when Caillan became Ogre food.

You didn't actually offer an opposing view, but if you want to do so, go for it.

[testing123]

phaonica wrote...

I won't pretend I entirely understand Maric. He frustrates me because he seems to be the same man at the beginning of Stolen Throne all the way through to the end of The Calling. 

I sort of felt that too.  At the beginning of 'The Calling' it feels a little like he's the same character he was 'pre-hardening.'  Hmm... that's an unfortunate phrase.  Even with everything he's been through he definitely remains a a sort of easy-going, charismatic figure that inspires everyone who follows him, including the ladies.  He managed to woo an assassin meant to murder him for ****'s sake!  

Personally, I was pleased to see he felt regret over past decisions, it made him more relatable and added depth. After he killed Katriel, he spent much of the rest of that book 'strictly business.'  It gives him the resolve to murder the 'Orlesian boot-lickers' and presumably, rule with a firmer hand.  But it was nice to see he retained some of his humanity, the story doesn't need two Loghains running around.  (I expect that last sentence to upset some people.) 

If the Landsmeet had demanded his death in order for the civil war to stop and for my character to gain the Ferelden armies, then I would have executed him.

If the roles were reversed do you think Loghain would spare you?  Interesting to ponder.

Monica21 wrote...
The first time I heard it I really didn't understand what he meant because the game didn't do a very good job telling the story of the rebellion and I hadn't read the books.

I agree.  I didn't really understand his character until after I read 'The Stolen Throne.'  I put the game down for a long while and now I'm in the midst of my second play through.  It's nice to catch little things like when Alistair says, 'Surely we've missed the signal by now' at Ostagar or Loghain's obvious distaste for enlisting an assassin in Zevran, that cast doubt on your understanding of him as a villain.  The first time I couldn't kill him.  His daughter was right there; I tend towards mercy anyway.  In the end, I told Alistair to do it.  If he wanted it done so badly he was going to have to take personal responsibility for it.  Anyway, after reading the book, I planned to kill him myself. While wearing the 'Katriel's Grasp' gloves.  I'm almost at the Landsmeet now... muahahaha =P  

[Sarah1281]

Yes! I thought the same thing the first time I heard it at the Landsmeet. When Loghain delivered that speech, I got chills. All my Wardens, even the earlier ones which executed Loghain always had a grudging repect for him which was further cemented by that speech and by his response to settle things with a duel.

Yeah, I was really pleasantly surprised when he immediately accepted my offer of a duel during my first playthrough. I still killed him but that was more because I wanted to be Queen Consort than because I felt he really should die.

I really wish I could have a conversation with Loghain as to why he would follow Maric into the Fade - Maric failed to inspire me.

Maybe he knows someone has to clean up after Maric?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[EnchantedEyes1]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I really wish I could have a conversation with Loghain as to why he would follow Maric into the Fade - Maric failed to inspire me.

Maybe he knows someone has to clean up after Maric?

I am so glad I was not drinking anything when I read that

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

If you have nothing to add beyond:
I HATE LOGHAIN AND ALL HIS FANS ARE BLIND!

Which most haters revert to, then yes you can be considered a troll.

You may consider me whatever you like.  I have no way to stop you, and don't particularly care.

But for the record- I have discussed Loghain, in this and other threads.  The cicular reasoning put up by his supporters to defend his every action,

from leaving Caillan (the battle was lost, after all, and he only decided that at the last minute, regardless of the plans he had in place),

to the beacon nonsense (he needed a beacon to tell him when to charge, which implies he couldn't see the battle, yet was somehow going to see it well enough to signal someone to either light it or not, and also knew it was late),

to his association and support of Howe (I know, he had no idea about anything Howe was doing, from slaughtering the Couslands, to imprisoning nobles and sons of nobles, to kidnapping his own daughter),

the poisoning of Eamon (I know, he wasn't supposed to die, just get really, really sick),

to hiring framing the wardens (They're Orlesians spies, after all),

to hiring assasins (sorry, Howe did that, see above),

to seizing power (where does he get the authority to name HIMSELF regent for an adult Queen - to say nothing about whether Anora actually had any authority to rule once Caillan died, unless confirmed by the Landsmeet),

to sending troops to guard the border from a non-existant invasion (it's not an invasion if you're invited and stop at the border when asked to, unless you're Orlesians)

to selling people into slavery (they're only elves, and after all, the alienage is no defensible, and he needed money for his civil war)

simply makes it impossible to have an intelligent conversation about it any longer.

Yet any time someone says something derogatory about him, they get flamed or called a troll.

I've said before - Gaider and the other writers/developers may have MEANT to make him a deep, conflicting character, but as far as the game goes, all they actually accomplished was to make him appear as a paranoid, power hungry madman.

But, you know, sorry for having an opinion.